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I think that would be the least threatening possibility. It's what it might do when it's turned loose deliberately or accidetally on the interconnected systems and devices that we all use these days that would be the bigger threat. Banks and other financial institutions, public facilities like hospitals, power stations and distribution networks, the military etc., and especially if nobody knows that it's there or what it's doing.

We are talking at cross purposes then. I am referring to the situation of one individual (my son) My first post was cut and paste fact. I added this text below to it. The most negative word I used was "inconvenient" I don't beleive what I have said below is stupid or outrageous. I am more than happy for you to have a different opinion. I say I feel it is inconvenient and you believe it is not. Nothing I have said is meant to be an attack on Britain, there is nothing to be offended by. Anyway I will leave it there.

I think you should re-read my posts.. .I have never said that he should just go for the ETA. How many times have I said someone not knowing they are a citizen.... or words to that effect

I can live with losing respect as you have just taken pot shots at my character and not addressed the issue or the facts. What one thing have I hung my hat on? You said removal of the level crossings was necessary for road safety. The reality is, on the statistics. In terms of the pissing contest, you were saying, and I quote: as if that somehow means you know more about it than me... Nothing to do in your post was based on fact. The very definition of a pissing contest? As I said, I don't disagree that pulling them out; it is a great convenience to road users. That does not translate to road safety. But it cost a shed load of money and if the objective was road safety, the data does not stack up.. and if we are priortising lives, then it was a lie. The most deaths at level crossings in a year in Victoria was in financial year 2006/7 in which one accident in Kerang claimed 11 train passengers lives. Last time I looked, Kerang was not in Melbourne. Most railway crossing accidents in Victoria happen outside of Melbourne. According to Chat, by 30 June this year, $17.6 billion has been spent removing level crossings in Melbourne. I am hanging on what you said in terms of road safety and minimising deaths on the road was a bad waste of money. Traffic flow, yes, but road safety, no way. I would also argue improving road design, even with the level crossings in place could improve traffic flow. But that is just conjecture now.

I feel that you are insinuating that I believe it is a "mountain" The thing is myself and my son and some of his colleagues were sitting around talking about travel. Someone mentioned the requirements to have a passport for each country you are a citizen of. I must admit I thought it was probably not true, but on researching it is true. Yes, he could just apply for an ETA but the fact is he does know of his triple citizenship. I certainly would feel uncomfortable knowing what I was doing was not technically correct. In my son's case he , travelled to the UK and around Europe about 12 years ago, I believe on his Australian passport. You say he could just apply for an ETA and hope it was approved, but the fact is he knows that a British citizen cannot do that, yes he would probably be OK but he could not in all good conscience say he was unaware. When it comes to mountains out of molehills, I think you are making way too much of my initial post. He needs three passports - fact, those passports have a monetary burden - fact. The British passport in particular carries a high administrative burden because my wife and I need to provide documents - fact My conclusion that this represents an increased burden is defensible. I do understand that there are upsides, for example he could live in the UK if he wanted to and perhaps shorter queues at the airport. I just think that this should be a privilege you ask for,there are not one that is thrust upon you without your knowledge or consent. I repeat this is not a criticism of UK only. The fact that an Australian passport is $422 is a bit eye watering compared to the others. I don't think he even has plans to travel to the UK His last trip was around China and it was cheap and easy.

Yes, but not when you are driving. You would know much better than I (DO) whether you are sleeping the sleep of the Just. WELL you can . You've JUST done a lot of mowing. I'd like to be able to have a Deep sleep More often. Nev

Water freezes at Zero C but other things in the sap raise the freezing Point, like antifreeze. Christ said "You have Made my Temple a den of thieves. They were using some form of tokens. ( Early Bitcoin? ) Cluneys-Ross used his own form of money to Pay the Copra workers on Cocos Islands. It was worth nothing anywhere else.. Nev

I cannot be bothered with your type of specious argument. Bell St is the Main way to get to a lot of Places from my side of town. You pick on ONE word and flog it to death, because you think you have a GOTCHA moment. Did you yearn to be a Lawyer in a Past life? There were always nasty accidents on or near railway crossings, particularly suburban ones which have very frequent Train services. Melbourne is Australia's fastest growing city. It's not really acceptable to Have frequent delays across Intersections caused by Rail Traffic.. We spend a lot on freeways to get Places faster and the Labor gov't has always tried to have a good rail service. The Trams in Central Melbourne are free at all times. ALSO don't accuse ME of wanting a Pissing contest if you want my respect, which you have completely Lost, by the way. Nev

When you are pushing a lawn mower around, there's not much need to be givingh all your attention to the task, so your mind can wander off to strange topics which raise interesting, but not often considered, questions. 1. If the oveernight temperatur gets to 0C or less and ice forms on things, why doesn't the freeze kill plants that grow in the winter? 2. If The Romans were in control of Judea at the time of Christ, and Roman currency was the currency of the Empire, why did they need money changers at the temple in Jerusalum?

I feel happy! I finished mowing. Not like mowing a suburban lawn, but more like slashing a paddock of lucerne. But it's done and now I can sleep innocently.

Are we afraid that someone has let AI out of the bottle and it will turn into something like the water-bearing brooms of the Sorcerer's Apprentice? Are we afraid that AI will self-replicate and eventually create bodies for itself and we will be under attack from Dalek-like machines?

I agree.. that is a pain. But in the context of the requirement to travel to the UK when you don't know you are one, it is of little real effect as it is highly likely the UK government will know you are one, and if it does, it will be picked up at the ETA application stage. You (not personally, but in a collective reference) will have plenty of time to sort it out. If in the future they have the means to check it, again, when you apply for your ETA, they will tell you.. I am struggling with the practical issue on this. I didn't say you (personal reference) nor your family were slagging off the British.. It was a general comment that Britain cops a lot of slagging off generally, so why anyone would want to come here for a holiday has be stumped. (and it was a little cynical humour) You (collective, not personal) don't have to acquire them all at the same time nor renew then at the same time. I was sans an Aussie passport for 8 years (BTW, for me to get one in the UK at normal processing times, it was £450 - c. $900). You don't need them unless you are to travel to the country. I have no idea how often your son travels to the UK, but if it is only ever going ot be once, it will cost him a one-off $200 on top of what, a $1500 airfare. If he got all at once and renewed at the same time, it would be around $60/year. But, if there was a way of combining all citizenships into the one passport, how much would that cost as the issuer would want money for the additional admin required and no doubt the citizenship country would want money for providing the data to the issuing country. So it will still cost. We don't know how much. If you want the benefit of citizenship of a country you have to pay. Yes, it is foisted upon you for the UK; you shouldn't have to pay, and the one off fee for rescinding citizenship is around $1,000. But, if you don't go to the UK, or you don't know you're a citizen and you use the ETA and it says you're OK to go, what is the issue? I didn't say it was a mountain - I said the Aus press were making the mountain out of a molehill: And, yes, my original comment was it was a mountain out of a molehill.. And somehow that has transpired to this great debate about whether it is massive burden or not... I am arguing it isn't.. So I am not sure how I am suggesting it is a mountain?

This one's for @red750. Just watching an episode of "Around the world in 80 days" (latest series, with David Tennant). Anyway, for some context, this is PG rated and very mild. The scene is Phileas Fogg and his companions rolling up to Government House in Hong Kong in a carriage. Miss Abigail Fix exclaims "Look at the security! It's like fucking a palace!" Well that's what the subtitles said, anyway. She actually said "Buckingham palace". 😂 Made me laugh!

If you think I am trashing the UK, I am not at least no more than any other country with the same requirements. The only thing I would say about the UK is unlike other many other countries inhereted citizenship is omethin YOU claim whereas the british system is some you must opt out of if you dont want it. Herein lies the problem. Many people don't know they are dual citizens. Sure, you can apply for an ETA but if there is no way of authorities know your status then it feels pointless. It may be in the future that they will have the means to check your citizenship. So perhaps you are well-moneyed: Aus passport $422 UK Passport $198 AUD NZ Passport $263 AUD This is a significant cost on top of airfares, accommodation etc. and I ask for what purpose? Yers I agree, I dont see why he should need an Australian passport. He has made his citizenship choice clear and is now a proud Kiwi Look it was a conversation we had and the surprise conclusion that he was a triple citizen. Do you think it is noteworthy???? We were not slagging off at the British, (I am British) any more than I am slagging off at NZ or Australia. Getting a UK passport in this circumstance is not so straight forward. Apart from the documentation he has to supply my wife and I need to supply our birth certificates and marriage certificates and we think maybe our immigration details (from 1964). So it is not just a question of cost it is also a significant administrative. Look I/we are not bitterly complaining only noting that it has become more complicated. That is all, you dont need to be defensive that I am slagging off at Britain, I have the same critcisim for Aus and NZ. It is claimed that the reason is for national security and perhaps an argument there but I am not sure how. All mI am saying is it has become more onerous, I get it that you think I'm obsseed with this thing that you beleive is just a minor detail To be fair, I did not define this as a mountain YOU DID again I simply said it was hard to understand and would make travel for a triple citizen more complicate - that is my whole point. If that makes me an idiot in your eyes then so b e it.

Yes.. at the time it was implemented.. I am sure they could have provided a transition period or something so there would be exceptions granted where travel had already been arranged... [edit] Sadly, this was one of Kier Starmer and his cabinet's deficiencies; they were technocrats and not politicians so when they went for full enforcement, they didn't really think beyond the rule itself [/edit] I am not disputing that. But the press was also trashing Britain for brining it in at all.. as if on an ongoing basis basis it is a big deal. but Australia does it and has been for years. And they are technically breaching international law as a passport is an identification document, and not a right to enter. If a government positively identifies its own citizens, it has to take them in (to get around it they can recind citizenship, but not if it will make them stateless - that would be a big step in the course of normal people being caught out). Let me ask you a question.. Your son is a citizen of three countries.. Up until Britain required him to have a passport to travel to Britain, he required a passport for two of the countries to travel to them. But adding one more suddenly makes the molehill a mountain according to the press? No one seemed to be complaining beforehand. That is my point.. as I said, I agree there has to be a better way, but the way the press were spinning it, the British requirement was this massive ongoing burden for life, when already two countries he is a citizen of - and lets face it where each off citizens of the other an automatic right of residency (subject to being good citizens) - and if they happened to be citizens of both countries, they still need two passports to travel between them? If it is that much of a burden that your son doesn't want the extra passport then he can: On a one time basis only, formally rescind his UK (and may as well at the same time, Aussie so he doesn't need an Aussie passport, but can still take up residence in Aus at any time); or If it really is that big a deal, just not visit the UK (given how many people trash it, it is a wonder anyone wants to visit at all). Or, if he is not a regular visitor to the UK, don't get a third one until he is about 8 weeks or so (to be on the safe side - it takes about 2 weeks now) from travelling. Or, he could just rescind his Aussie citizenship and that would take him back to two passports (and therefore back to molehill territory). Given it is likely to cost similar to have citizenship stamped in three passports as having three passports, I am struggling to see what the big deal is about having three passports, except if one is really disorganised. As a pretty experienced traveller, I would prefer separate passports as I get to choose which one to enter other countries on, which can have benefits. The Aussie passport was not great to travel in Europe during the Shengen years, for example; The British passport was good in the middle east, believe it or not. But, let's break this down.. If you don't know whether or not you're a British Citizen: Apply for British ETA (preferably before buying tickets). ETA says yes; you are good to go. No big deal. ETA says no because you're a British Citizen, get passport, book your tickets and you no longer need to faff about with an ETA and you get through the immigration queues much faster at Heathrow (or wherever) than non UK/EU citizens (yes, unlike EU countries, Britain still lets EU people in through the citizen route) It actually makes it easuer than those god awful queues. Well done. If you know or suspect you're a British Citizen by descent: - Get British passport - Avoid the queues And the mountain you are telling me is your son now needs three passports? Jeez.. really?

By whatever means, people have been prevented from travelling or had their travel delayed. It may not be many people all up but it HAS happened as per articles I have linked to, or are they false news. So, to be clear, your advice to someone in my son's situation, "she will be right mate" The fact is HE NEEDS 3 PASSPORTS to stay withinn the law: the fact that only a few people at this stage have been detected is hardly the point. I regret raising this interesting (or so I thought) point.

Exactly how are they going to do that? Unless the airlines have access to British government records that the British government doesn't have access to, it is hardly going to be an issue. Dive a little deeper and: They have to get an ETA. The ETA process will check if they are a known citizen. The airline has no way of determining separately that they are potentially a citizen, nor do they need to. What could go wrong? In between the ETA given and travel, the UK government somehow determine the person is a citizen and update their database in time. But they may also do that because the person goes onto a criminal or terrorist list - even if mistaken identity. And the chances of that are, again, making a mountain out of a molehill.. Unless you want absolute perfection in a system... And I forgot to mention, the exact same can happen to travellers to Australia - the ETA can be subsequently revoked because Australia found out the Brit is an Aussie citrizen (or some other reason). (that is effectively what happens).

Yeah - arguing facts v intuition is difficult. I presented the stats in a previous thread in which, from Victorian government sources, the deaths and serious injuries at railway crossings occurred, by a long way, in rural locations.. and the number of deaths and serious injuries in Melbourne was tiny - I can't remember, but low 10s over a god awful long period of time. But, you can argue if you want, but the facts are the facts. So, if justifying the prioritisation of spending public on road safety, then, I don't think it was a good decision because it will achieve jack shit on road safety by the statistics compared to, oh, I dunno poor road conditions, potholes, and poor road design, where in one year death along far outweighed all level crossing deaths and serious injuries in Victoria since records began: So, if your justifying the prioritising of spending public money on road safety, the appropriation of it to the level crossing replacement is an out and out lie. Dan Andrews is a smart politician. He knows that the best way to get elected you should make people happy. Has the removal of the level crossings improved driver convenience? Yep, by a long way. How many lives has it saved and will continue to save? I would argue very few, if any. I may not liver there at the moment, but if you want to get into a pissing contest rather than discuss fact, how long have you lived IN Melbourne. And how long have you lived anywhere near Bell Street both as a kid and an adult.

I think the issue is not so much about being prosecuted but being prevented from travelling by the airline According to AI The bigger issue is airlines, not customs officers Someone saying "customs won't know" is focusing on the wrong stage. The problem often happens before boarding. Airlines use UK government systems to check whether passengers have permission to travel. If the system indicates the person is British and should not be using an ETA, the airline may refuse boarding because they are responsible for carrying properly documented passengers. 4. It is also a question of future consequences Someone might get away with travelling on an Australian passport for years. Then: they have a child, they apply for a British passport, they move to the UK, they need consular help, they renew documents. At that point, their British citizenship status becomes relevant. I don't think my bringing this up is petty or making a mountain out of a molehill. The biggest problem is people are unaware of it and there are numerous cases of people caught out. The law is what it is but that does not make it sensible.

Music and travel writer Glenn A Baker (28 July 1952 – 31 July 2026) has died aged 74. He was known for his vast music knowledge and collection, and edited Billboard magazine for over 20 years.

That is a citizenship thing rather than a passport thing. With the exception of the discriminatory component, certainly before Brexit and even since Brexit, most would consider that a benefit rather than a problem. Free access to the UK to be able to work as well if you want, and as a result, visa-less access to Europe and relatively easy ability to transfer to Europe if you want to work. Now they say, like Australia, if you're a citizen, you need a UK passport. If, as an Aussie, you don't realise you are as British subject and you travel on your ETA, and they don't realise you're a British subject, there is no issue - not even at law, because no doubt a strict liability offence, an honest and reasonable belief in the fact you weren't a British subject would render it not an offence. In terms of cost, the UK passport through normal route is 1/2 the price of an Aussie one. They last 10 years... so, it is £10 a year (they are £100). The requirement to provide proof of citizenship is only on the first issue of the passport, as it is required for the first issue of any Aussie on an Aussie passport. And even with your suggestion, you would have to prove to the passport issuing authority all of your citizenships - as you acquire them.. Or even if you lumped them up into one application if you had them all at the first issue of your passport, they would charge a fee for validating your citizenship in each country, and there would be a fee from that other country as rthey would charge for registering you on their database of citizens with foreign passport holders. And no doubt similar costs would occur on renewals. So, I don't see a massive cost saving, either. I don't disagree with you in that there should be a better way. I just think the reporting of it was way out of proportion to the problem it really is. Ergo, I think they were making a mountain out of a molehill, with the exception for those people that got caught out while the change came in.

DOG will get all of you Infidels. Nev

The ME is overshadowing it as it's affecting OUR supplies and costs MORE.. Nev

SOLDER rarity is good as it's got Lead in it.. Nev

I am not saying UK bad Australia good. In the case of my son it is 3 different countries demanding that he have their passport at great monetary and administrative burden. I am merely suggesting that perhaps rather than applying and paying for 3 different passport could not we have a system where you have primary citizenship and perhaps noted in you passport secondary citizenships? There is a differnece between inherited Australian citizenship in that it is a right you actively must claim, whereas British citizenship is something you get automatically, and should you not want it you have to renounce it. There are also other complexities. During the conversation I had with my son and his colleagues his business partner pointed out that although she is a child of a British parent she was not autamatically a British citizen but her brother was because of this: "While Australia's rules are relatively straightforward, British nationality law is deeply affected by when you were born and historical gender discrimination. For example, if you were born before 1983 to a British mother and a foreign father, you did not automatically inherit citizenship at birth. You must instead go through a retroactive registration process to correct this historical imbalance. [1]" It does feel like it would be easier if inherited British citizenship was an opt-in system and not automatic.