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How can we have a half decent argument if you say stuff like this?

I agree Peter - part of a previous job was system testing changes to a large organisation's primary database before they were deployed. For five weeks at a time we'd try to break it by doing the stupidest things humans could do to it. After deployment, when the programmers had applied fixes to any weaknesses we'd found, inevitably some moron still managed to break it.

So many threads this could go in. I chose Silly Pics because 'tis silly to allow vested interests to control political narrative..... Oh dear. The forum prohibited me posting a meme that said something like: 'twitter allows exposure of Nancy Pelosi's trades, but not Donold's trades' Have I been found out by the Deep State?

It's not just EVs that have LED and similar tablet type displays in front of them.. most new cars to these days. That really is not the issue. A speedo cable can snap on an analogue system and you have the same issue - I have had it happen on a Saturday arvo and no speedo until Monday morning. I would hope there are no controls on that screen. Sticking yuor hand between the spokes of the steering wheel is not a good thing. On the controls, using touch screen doesn't give you a sense of magnitude of change (e.g. temperature, etc) without looking. Well, at least for some time, anyway. Also, early model Teslas were infamous for the depth of menu setting one had to go through to get to whatever function was required. Muscle memory will only go some way.. as it does on analogue or tactile type inputs. How many times (in an old 4 or 5 on the floor, or even a 3 or 54 on the column) have we crunched the gears or almost stalled the car going into the wrong gear. However, the physical/tactile approach allows us to correct without reverting to looking at the gears (unless we really stuff it up and have lost spatial awareness of where the gear is). So, the Atrick household vehicle mix is chaning. Daughter just wants an old banger (UK speak)/bomb (Aus speak) of a car as she will be in a house in the next academic year, won't have a driveway, and will not want the hassle of a nice car getting road rash from an inner urban environment. Good on her. So it will be a petrol Ford Fiesta (most likely); manual, a/c, power steering and otherwise minimal. Mrs Atrick is in for a little shock... She is getting an EV - Probably an MG4 to replace her mini. She doesn't know it yet.

Just when you make it foolproof........ along come smarter fools. Oh, wait.... did that happen to USof A last year?

Because you can't cover EVERY Possibility by simple LOGIC. Nev

I hope I didn't sound too 'conservative' - that term has negative political connotations these days. I do prefer tactile interaction with controls. That won't stop me playing/learning other kinds or locations of controls. Of course I'll adapt. But I hope the other automated facets of new vehicles gets very thoroughly tested. I spent a lot of my career testing and commissioning complex automation and I know there will always be users who can bring about unforseen results. A bit like MrMusky's unplanned post launch disassembly of his rockets.

We don't know the details of the deal he has.. They will have done their homework. My guess is they only service they are paying him for is access to his address book.

Our discussion around climate change has centred on power generation and ICE cars v EVs. But, it is a muilt-pronged approach required. As the rest of the world clears its heat sink, China is building its up: https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/plants/trees-in-chinas-great-green-wall-appear-to-grow-faster-than-natural-forests-study-finds Where fossil or nuclear makes sense, it should be used. The reality with today's technology, there are fewer and fewer places it makes sense. And should the political shift to drive a shift to local storage and distribution, the use of rapidly outdating technologies will make even less sense. We talk about the economics of doing it, but we rarely talk about the economics of not doing it. And economics is man made, anyway... the real cost (ie. outcomes) of not doing will lead to socio-economic costs far beyond the pure economic cost of doing it.

While it is reasonable to use indigenous words that had/have meaning in the speech of the people who used them, it is ridiculous to apply words for things that did not exist for those people. As an example, would the concept of "stairway" ever have existed until stairways had been introduced by people who made them? I believe that when the first overland explorers reached northern Australia, near the ocean, the local indigines saw the rifles of the explorers and immediately called them 'musquit' or similar. The reason? They had seen the muskets of the Dutch and Malays who came to fish in the area before the British explorers arrived from the South. The explorers would have been carrying rifles.

The bulk of the place names in W.A. are Anglicised from the local Aboriginal dialects, and often are quite inaccurate in the translation - to the extent, that a pronunciation of the proper Aboriginal name of those places would be nearly impossible for most people. The bottom line is, the Aboriginal languages have died out because they have no way of keeping up with technological advances. This is the reason the English language is the language of Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics, Construction and Aviation. The Aboriginal languages are primarily concerned with place names and land forms, and waterways and waterholes - all that was needed to sustain the nomadic, hunter-gatherer lifestyle, which involved just the immediate everyday needs.

Does it matter OT? Personally I am proud of our mix of historic British words and the historic indigenous words that make Australia different from the US or Canada or NZ or Britain.

Yeah, but the Maori language is still a living language. I don't think that any of the indigenous languages of the Greater Sydney Area are still spoken.

It reminds of when we visit our son in NZ. One of our favourite places to visit is Te Papa Tongarewa which is Wellington museum. The literal translation is "container of treasures" I think it is a great name being both an understatement and a name that is quintessentially NZ.

I did.. but this house is taking a bloody long time and draining more funds than we imagined. , so every so often we have to pause to let them build up. Unf, this year, I made a bit of a blue of a decision because I was too busy at work to think things through and that cost be £25K as well.. So that has to be made up, too. But this week, things are back on, and it is some rewiring and all the decorative work.. If I don't sell the lot, I will subdivide, where I can sell the cottage to pay off the mortgage and then rent out the main house.

I am travelling to Aus for a couple of weeks - up to a month in mid-July. I am guessing that will become a gripe for you fellas 🙂 It's not the flight, nor the destination, but the purpose. what I call YAMD - yet another mercy dash. At least this time, it is not for a couple of days. I will be between my brother's place in Canterbury and my mother's place in the Yarra Valley - as well as Port Arlington, where my brother has his retirement place. Sadly, my mum has been diagnosed with a terminal illness and I am coming out for the prognosis scan. Then it will be making arrangements after that. Also, both my brother and I want to get her wishes, because, the feeling when my father was in ICU being asked by the doc to play dog was not a good one. And that time will come, so I want us to be prepared - as I have prepared my family for my inevitable demise. All good things must come to an end, unf. But, it will be a recce trip as well, so not all gripes. I will take a look at a parcel of land I intend to build my "retirement" lifestyle on - and yes - it will be GA/RAAA based. In addition, I will try to nip up to Sydney to introduce myself to our Aussie office and see if there may be any offerings in the future move - which is not far, now - end of year max - will explain in the reno thread. I won't have time to do any flying, plus I don't have an Aussie medical at the moment (couldn't get a mygov id in time for my last medical here.).

I have been thinking about how our world has turned to crap. Thirty years ago, I could ring Qantas Help or Westpac help and get straight through. Now we have technology and the internet and no one in business cares what the customer thinks. Its after 4pm, I'm reaching for the Shiraz.

How I spent an hour of my time today: This chat may be recorded. By using this chat, you agree to its terms of use. To read our privacy statement, type 'Learn about privacy'. Connecting you with Red - Westpac's Virtual Assistant Hi Peter, I'm here to help with general banking questions. I provide generic, factual information only and don’t take into account any personal information you tell us or have previously told us. Feel free to pick a topic from the list below, or ask me your question in a short, simple sentence: 1:28 PM Message says my card has been blocked 1:28 PM Are you able to confirm the type of card you're having issues with? 1:28 PM Credit Card issue 1:28 PM Have you received a fraud notification that your card's been suspended? 1:28 PM Yes 1:28 PM This activity sounds concerning. You may need to chat to our Card Fraud team. 1:28 PM Our Card Fraud team can only support enquiries where you have not supplied your card details to a business. Have you provided your card details to this business before? 1:28 PM Yes 1:28 PM If you've provided your details to a business in the past, any charges you receive that you don't recognise or may not agree with need to be resolved via a dispute. 1:29 PM If there's an issue or something you'd like to dispute, first contact the merchant to check if they're able to help. If you're unable to resolve the issue with the merchant, you can dispute the card transaction online within 150 days of the payment being processed. 1:29 PM Select the transaction in your transaction list and then select the 'Report the transaction' button. Complete the form and we'll investigate for you. 1:29 PM Were you able to dispute the transaction? 1:29 PM No 1:31 PM I'll need to transfer you to a banker to help with you with your transaction dispute/query. 1:31 PM Our chat bankers can help you with most general enquiries on your accounts. 1:31 PM Please let me know if your enquiry relates to Personal or Business Banking and I'll check if there's a banker that's available to help. Personal Banking 1:31 PM Personal Banking 1:31 PM Thanks Peter, I'll connect you to the next available banker. You can come back to your conversation anytime. The banker provides factual information only, and no product advice. Please let them know if you're not ok to proceed on this basis. There'll be a short survey at the end of this conversation. You can minimise this chat and one of our bankers will get back to you as soon as possible. We apologise that our wait times are longer than normal and thank you for your patience. Please feel free to message us your enquiry below and the next available banker will be with you as soon as possible. 1:31 PM I have received a notification that my card has been blocked. But there is no transaction on my account that I can query. 1:33 PM We apologise that our wait times are longer than normal and thank you for your patience. Please feel free to message us your enquiry below and the next available banker will be with you as soon as possible. Hi there, Peter! Thank you for contacting Westpac Virtual Banking and thank you for your patience while waiting. My name is Rejie, I'm here to help, and I hope I can make your day a little better. Please allow me to assist you. 1:36 PM Hello 1:38 PM I have received a notification that my card has been blocked. But there is no transaction on my account that I can query. 1:38 PM Hello Rejie are you there? 1:39 PM Hello? 1:41 PM I understand that seeing your card blocked without any visible transaction can be confusing. Let me take a closer look at what’s triggered this and help get everything sorted for you. 1:42 PM Can you please provide the last four digits of the card? 1:48 PM **** 1:50 PM I can confirm that your card ending in**** has been temporarily restricted due to a transaction from Amazon Prime Membership for $0. 1:51 PM And you need to speak with the card fraud team to lift the restriction on your card. 1:52 PM how do i speak to them? 1:52 PM I can transfer you directly to them. 1:54 PM Shall I go ahead and transfer you over to them? 1:54 PM Please do 1:54 PM Okay, please allow me to leave a note first on your account. 1:54 PM Transferring you now. 1:59 PM Sorry our wait times are longer than expected. You will be connected to an agent shortly. Welcome to live chat with Gianell from card fraud. Can I please start with your full name and date of birth? 2:05 PM **** 2:05 PM Reading back on chat. 2:07 PM Last 4 digits of card? 2:11 PM **** 2:11 PM Let me check. 2:14 PM 2:05 PM Reading back on chat. 2:07 PM Last 4 digits of card? 2:11 PM **** 2:11 PM Let me check. 2:14 PM Card blocked due to alerted transaction. 2:20 PM So what are you doing to unblock it? 2:20 PM AMAZON PRIME MEMBERSHIP $0. 2:20 PM Did you try to use it? 2:20 PM No 2:20 PM I do subscribe to Amazon Prime so they have my card number. 2:21 PM I see, please give me a moment to lift block. 2:22 PM Done. 2:23 PM Have I answered all your questions today? 2:23 PM Yes

I have enough trouble trying to get my new Samsung phone to work properly with a screen swipe. It often fails to respond to a finger swipe. It's the most dubious activation of any operation you can devise - as compared to the accuracy and positivity of a switch. As regards voice commands - they are also on a par with screen swipes. I never use them, because I have poor hearing, and verbal communication is always a hassle for me. I don't use sat nav because I can't hear the womans instruction. I have great difficulty in understanding women speaking, due to the pitch of womens voices, which pitch is where I have greatest hearing loss. In addition, I do not trust any global corporation taking a record of my voice, and doing all sorts of things with it, in that they refuse to tell me what they are doing with it. Then there's the problem of several people talking, while you're trying to talk to a voice-activated screen, and the screen microphone picks up activation commands that weren't directed at it. I often hear SWMBO talking to our smart TV, trying to get it to carry out some action, and then she resorts to the remote control. AFAIC, touchscreens in cars are anathema to what driving is all about. It means distraction from the road, and other vehicles around you, and safety authorities have long treated screens inside vehicles as a major road safety problem.

In your example, Octave, the driver still has to focus on the screen popup temp. Certainly not something that a non BYD driver could accomplish easily. Unlike conventional controls, there is no tactile feedback to confirm the desired action has occurred.

The main problem with a screen is having to look over at it and move your finger to make something happen. It is very distracting. Not like knobs and buttons that can be found by feel.

Nev, my take is that LCD/LED screens are the manufacturers taking the cheap way out, as a screen and software would only be a fraction of the cost of the buttons and switches. Add in the fact that these screens have a vastly increased failure level and increased susceptibility to damage, as compared to switches and buttons, and I know what I'm going to buy in any future vehicle purchase. No, I haven't driven any EV yet and I'm not rushing into doing so. I consider current EV technology is still in the "further development required" category, and I'll wait a while yet before I try out the technology. I'm conservative by nature, and have always abided by a policy of never being an early purchaser of new technology or new models, until the bugs are sorted out.

You don't see too many modern Cars on the side of the road these days. The screens are not to distract you. They give you real time information relevant to where you are and where you are seeking to go. The alternative would be to use a road Map. I know which I would rather do.. Have you test driven an electric car Yet? Nev

The move to ensure new cars have familiar buttons and switches for the primary basic controls in a car is gathering pace, and it's being pursued by safety authorities. It's long overdue. Every car should have a similar familiar layout, to enable easy transition from one vehicle to another, without confusion or distraction. The safety authorities are becoming concerned that touch screens with many of the vehicles primary controls on it, are a safety and distraction hazard. Manufacturers are starting to agree that they went too far in trying to make cars into mobile phones on wheels. The comment from Aston Martin director of design is very relevant. He speaks of how touchscreens take away from the driver, the feel to be able to properly use the car. It's interesting to see that the ultra-conservative Toyota is still using the approach of retaining buttons and switches for the basic vehicle controls. Numerous Chinese and European and Korean vehicles have gone too far in making touchscreens the primary control device in cars, and now a number of them are admitting, they have to return to a Toyota-like, controls design. https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/big-touchscreens-to-give-way-to-physical-controls-as-car-brands-ditch-annoying-feature-and

For the first time ever an EV is the top selling vehicle in Australia for May and it isn't Chinese but the Tesla Model Y. https://www.drive.com.au/news/australian-new-car-sales-in-may-2026-tesla-model-y-is-first-ev-to-top-vfacts-charts/

Well, we're taking the jump. My wife and I test drove 3 EVs today - MG 4, MG 4 Urban and MG 5. Kate had already put down a deposit on the MG 4, but after driving all 3 we're tossing up between the Urban and the MG 5. In all 3 cars the acceleration is brilliant. Handling is great. We found the Urban and MG 5 more comfortable because we're both tall (and possibly a bit wider than we should be). Over the weekend we'll decide which way to go and switch the deposit on Monday.

I haven't looked into this however if true does not bother me. At this point I don't own an EV but the the more of these vehicles on the road the better for everyone. As a regular cyclist I can say that I would rather be waiting at the traffic lights behind an EV than a car spewing fumes in my face We know the kids who live near major highways have more respiratory issues. My son recently spent time in Beijing. He was expecting the air to be thick with car fumes however the air was surprisingly clear thanks to the uptake of EVs. Thus benefits all of society.

Back to EV's - the original subject of this thread. Ford are going all-out to try and beat the Chinese EV onslaught with a new EV pickup. It means starting a whole new style of assembly line from scratch. The Wall St Journal has the original full story, this part below is merely an excerpt. You need to pay a subscription to the WSJ to read the full article, but the excerpt provides the "guts" of the story. QUOTE: "Crews are preparing Ford's Louisville factory to make a planned line of EVs. Photo Credit: Houston Cofield for WSJ The secret is now out as Ford races toward building its first model, a new truck it says will be nearly as fast as a Mustang, travel around 300 miles on a single charge and feature in-car technology to compete with Tesla and China. It’s aiming for a 2027 launch and a price tag of around $30,000, the cost of a Toyota Camry. Getting there means tearing up a century of manufacturing practices in a notoriously hidebound industry. At stake for Ford is securing a future beyond the gas-guzzling pickups and SUVs that have long defined its bottom line. The project had been kept quiet from its 2022 start, led by veterans from Tesla and Apple who worked on designs out of a California office. Ford eventually brought in some of its own employees to help execute the vision. The process was filled with misunderstandings and distrust as the techie outsiders worked to win over the risk-averse industry veterans. To build these new EVs, the company must use fewer people and simpler parts, and dismantle decades of engineering inertia. Chief Executive Jim Farley is calling it Ford’s new “Model T moment.” Rival automakers say overcoming China on EVs can’t be done, given their advantages: extensive government backing, low-cost labor and a massive head start. With its new truck, Ford says it has eliminated thousands of feet of heavy copper wiring, cut out hundreds of parts, and made it 15% more aerodynamic than its other pickups. The process included rethinking the assembly line, which Ford helped to pioneer. That process is traditionally iterative, slow and depends on scores of outside partners. On Ford’s new “assembly tree,” a modular system stamps out two massive, aluminum castings and a battery that get merged at the end of the process—closer to how Tesla and China’s automakers build EVs. “We’ve never blown the whole thing up before and just started over,” Coffey said. “If and when we build this, we will rewire Ford.” For a year, a team of 17—tiny by Ford standards—worked out a design for the first new EV. Their vision collided with Farley’s. He nixed the first vehicle the California team was developing, an SUV-type model. Build a midsize pickup instead, he told them. It fills a void in the EV market and will be a bigger hit with car buyers, he said. Then they attacked Ford procedures and mandates the team deemed obsolete, or even nonsensical. Field described one such rule. All Ford vehicles must be built with a slight lip above the opening to prevent rain from spilling in the window when a driver or passenger cracks it to smoke a cigarette. Nicknamed “smokers window,” it added aerodynamic drag, costing battery range. The new truck won’t have it. Managers were fanatical about keeping Ford’s ranks away from the project. “There were so many times that I protected the team,” Clarke said, fearing that outsiders could slow the building momentum. Dreaming up a design was one thing. Building it was another. That’s when Clarke and Field started recruiting company veterans to join its ranks. They sought out the misfits and malcontents within Ford—the type of people, Clarke said, chafing under Ford’s often-rigid structure. The freewheeling phase is over now. At a sprawling factory in Louisville, Ky., where Ford used to build gas-powered SUVs, crews are working to set up tooling and the new trio of assembly lines to build the EV. The company tested about 30 hand-built prototypes to try to root out problems earlier in the process. Later this year, they plan to start building—then road-testing—the first factory-built models. Ford says the truck’s interior will be roomier than a compact crossover SUV’s. Hyundai Motor CEO José Muñoz, asked recently whether it’s possible for an automaker to build a vehicle in the U.S. that competes with the Chinese, was unequivocal: “It is impossible,” he said." The future of Ford will likely hinge on how effectively it can counter the Chinese car onslaught. I guess Ford is hoping this EV will pull a rabbit out of the hat for them. IMO, they have left their run too late, the Chinese have a massive head start, and have virtually unlimited financing from Xi and the CCP. Only time will tell.

A coal power plant may last 50 years, but during that time, it would undergo maintenance and upgrades. Private banks and investors are unwilling to finance new coal. The long payback means that even if it were viable now, the risk is that somewhere down the line it may become unviable due to advancing technologies. There is no law in Australia that prevents building new coal; there is simply no good business case. You keep talking about "intermittent power" without considering energy storage. Battery efficiency and cost fall every year. A builder of a coal plant that is burning coal whether it is generating at all, is competing with ever cheaper and more efficient battery storage. It is not just chemical energy storage. Underground Air Batteries — The Energy Storage You’ve Never Heard Of Generating electricity with renewables is extremely cheap; this is undeniable. However, the challenge is both long and short-duration storage. Batteries are being built at an astonishing rate, and there are other promising methods in the pipeline. An investor in coal would need to know that they could never be undercut during the payback time of the plant.

Can you name a country where building new coal or nuclear power plants recently has kept retail electricity prices flat or below inflation? You’re asking renewables to reduce total electricity bills while we’re simultaneously replacing an entire ageing system and building new infrastructure.

You’re assuming prices are high because we’re adding renewables, but that skips the key comparison—what would be cheaper instead? New coal isn’t being built anywhere in Australia because it’s not economically competitive. If it were cheaper, companies would be investing in it—but they’re not. Nuclear might be reliable, but in Australia it would take 10–15+ years and cost significantly more than renewables. That doesn’t solve current prices. A big driver of recent price spikes has actually been coal plant outages and high fossil fuel prices, not renewables. That’s been highlighted repeatedly by Australian Energy Market Operator. The idea that coal is still reliably holding the system together is outdated. Plants like Eraring Power Station are ageing, breaking down more often, and becoming expensive to maintain—that’s not ideology, it’s physics and economics. You’re right that redundancy is needed—but that applies to any system. The difference is that renewables + storage are currently the cheapest way to build that redundancy at scale. So the issue isn’t that renewables are making power expensive—it’s that we’re replacing an ageing, increasingly unreliable system, and that was always going to come with costs no matter what technology we chose.

There's nothing LESS reliable that an old obsolete Coal fired Power station. They FAILon Hot days without warning and take ages to repair which can be Impossible for Many technical reasons. Having steam in the equation means danger and inefficiency. Coal combustion is a a polluter on a grand scale. You continue to Ignore STORAGE. You are the one flogging dead horses and using the Worn out slogans of the Deniers. It doesn't CUT. Why is Dutton Not around anymore? Nev.

Crap day for me. I went to use my lathe and it wouldn't turn, headstock bearings jammed for some reason. So I took my old car for a drive instead, and went through one of those cameras that spots your phone on the passenger seat, where mine was. Then got home and, being annoyed, scraped the paint on the garage door. First damage to the perfect paint job in 25 years of ownership. I'm going flying in the morning, hope my luck has changed by then.