nomadpete

And how many proven Ukrainian submersibles could we buy with whatever cash was left after that? What war plan scenario showed that a couple of big outdated subs would win, against any believable agressor?

Random history borrowed from another thread..... 25 years ago today, a big clash of the superpowers - the “Hainan Island Incident”, which is described in a book “Pacific”, by Simon Winchester. Hainan Island incident - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org U.S. intelligence gathering plane operating in the South China Sea, whose air and water China considers its territory, the U.S. not so much. Chinese jet, flown by Lt. Cdr. Wang Wei -who had intercepted US planes before, getting close enough to display his email address on a paper sign through the cockpit- gets a bit too close this time and collides with the U.S. plane. Wang’s plane is heavily damaged, goes out of control, he ejects, parachute malfunctions, he disappears into the sea. The U.S. plane, with 23 aboard, heavily damaged but still flying, makes an emergency landing without Chinese permission (none of their distress calls had been responded to by the Chinese) at a sensitive military base on large Hainan Island (which is a long time target of US spying) on the SE coast of China, surrounded by armed troops upon arrival, who force their way into the plane. (Plane was later retuned to the U.S. , dismantled in wooden boxes, on a Russian cargo plane.) What was going through their minds…. “For the next 26 minutes, the crew of the EP-3 [US plane, after it was stabilized following a big rapid descent after the collision] performed an emergency plan which included destroying sensitive items aboard the aircraft, such as electronic equipment related to intelligence-gathering, documents and data. Part of this plan involved pouring freshly brewed coffee into disk drives and motherboards and using an axe from the plane's survival kit to destroy hard drives.[15] The crew had not been formally trained on how to destroy sensitive documents and equipment, and so improvised. As a result of the destruction, the plane's interior was later described as resembling "the aftermath of a frat party".[12] The air crew was interrogated and held for over a week, diplomatic crisis, etc etc. Among other things China learned from the plane in its possession —although the crew destroyed a lot of info and spying equipment aboard - including after landing while Chinese troops banged on the windows and shouted at them with bullhorns to come out— China learned that the U.S. could track its submarines via signals intelligence. The end was a letter, or letters, “the two sorries”, issued that allowed each country to save face. 25 years ago today (Bush’s first foreign policy crisis.) Could’ve been a lot worse. Let’s avoid this kinda stuff in future, shall we? Air and sea patrols have continued since then, but US crafts have learned to be much more careful since. Imagine if this incident had occurred while Trumpster was *resident…

I almost posted this in Funny Videos thread..... the joke's on us. It's time I sign up for Mandarin lessons.

Nice. Sit by the fire sipping a nice drop, looking out at the rain. Happy days to you both

Marty, we can only see limited and biased news, and from our distance it cannot reflect how the inhabitants see things. JerryA just gave you a little insight of how some USAnians see things.

Totally agree. The USofA will no longer be a land of opportunity for the people. But fine for the top few. They are already firmly on the road to international isolationism. The rest of the world is already getting along better without them. Long term damage has already be done. Just think of the outrage that will rise if Republicans and DJT get thrown out. Besides, there seems to be nobody else electable.

I admit that at first I thought that Donold was just using theatrical BS to wind up the dumb redneck voters. It was all just an act, to get the top job. How wrong I was. I didn't believe that anybody could be that dumb, foolish, shallow, narcisstic and sociopathic, and yet survive to such an age without somebody topping him. And I mean, before he ran for president the first time. But here we are. Not only that, but he gathered together so many like minded people to protect and enable his corruption without any thought or consideration for the wellbeing of the people.

Well in spite of all the depressing stuff that Donold is doing and saying, He still has a big following. Recent polls (grain of salt required), suggest that Republicans are losing ground from Latinos and less white voters. Then the detail emerges.....support ('I'll vote for Trump again'), has dropped from 72% to only 60%. For that demographic. What? If they still have 60% support, after all the damage done so far, next year will be even worse than this year! I realise it is only one segment of their public, but it still indicates an amazing level of support for continuing the rolling disaster of USofA.

Where is Freud when you need him? I went yhrough a falling nightmare phase, later on I grew out of it - I'd dream of falling, then i dreamt that I could swoop out of the fall and fly over the houses.

Finally got to see the rest of your clip. How long did you have to lie there on your back, waiting for the train?

Thanks for sharing, Octave. Unfortunately I could only play the first bit, we do have slow internet in the remote south! Good perspective. Keep up the exercise - once you lose fitness, it's almost impossible to get it back.

I guess that's better than the original promise - of probably no subs at all

US vs Iran. So much winning!

As for the oppressive law prohibiting smoking near other people, well I can speak as an ex smoker. I gave up smoking just before such laws were made. I gave up because I realised it was harmful, also I noticed it sometimes bothered some people. Creating a law was not what changed my behaviour. However, human nature has a habit of creating strong herd acceptance of social behaviour, and that prevented many people from behaving responsibly. The law was necessary to change the mob. But smoking itself has not been banned. I am free to smoke, so long as I basically don't bother other people by doing it.