rgmwa

Out of curiosity I had a look at that article which talks about the impossibility of a complex organ like a flagellum evolving by evolutionary processes. It concludes by saying: "The example of the bacterial flagellum shows that the existence of complex biological structures that require for their operation the simultaneous functioning of their multiple parts cannot be accounted for by the Darwinian theory of evolution. In fact, according to this theory, such structures should not really exist at all. This means the theory is less than inadequate. Not only does it fail to account for what we see, it implies that what we see should not even exist in the first place. Any theory that is so at odds with observable reality is quite obviously false. So how did the superbly-designed motor of the bacterial flagellum come into existence? The only reasonable inference is that it was fashioned by a transcendent intelligence. The term that is usually used to refer to such intelligence is God." All he is doing is replacing one theory (evolution) with another theory (God) because he hasn't got a clue how else to explain it. I'd hardly call that progress, and it certainly isn't very convincing. rgmwa

The Lord works in mysterious ways, Nev. rgmwa

The impression I get is that Mike's talking about religious experience as the basis for belief, rather than learned religion, which would make it a very personal and non-denominational view of Life, the Universe and Everything. Could be wrong of course. rgmwa

Amen! At least I think that's how it goes. rgmwa

Yes, I agree but he's providing such a torrent of information that I can't keep up with it all, and don't have the in-depth knowledge to separate fact from fiction. One day when I've retired I may have the time to study it in more detail. Looks like it might help if I was a Mason too, but alas, not much chance of getting an invitation in the mail anytime soon. My cousin is though, so maybe I'll ask him. rgmwa

I heard that Mel Gibson might be interested. rgmwa

It could be this one: Johnson, J.E. Wing Leader (Fighter Pilots). London: Goodall Publications Ltd. 2000 (original edition 1956). http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1246813.Wing_Leader Possibly re-titled for the later release? rgmwa

Any mention of the Watchers in the Bible? How would they fit into the picture? rgmwa

... "If"? ... I thought the Bible removed all doubt? ... then who created God? Sorry to sound so simplistic Gnu.

That's the bottom line really isn't it? If you can make the required leap of faith, it neatly solves the problem (at least superficially). If you can't, you have to live with the fact that you don't have the answer, and that even if you did, you may not like it. rgmwa

No, not mocking, just bemused. I'm certainly no biblical scholar, but the relevant passage you quoted sounds more like a riddle than a roadmap to me. rgmwa

GG, in seriousness, how do you know exactly what he said or what he meant? I assume you weren't there at the time. rgmwa

Yes, all the established denominations have their own particular practices and rituals, and this example of the confessional is peculiar to the RC's. Of course there's the joke about the recalcitrant who hadn't been to confession for many years, but finally thought he should put in an appearance to clear the account. He opened the door of the confessional, went in and knelt down in the gloom, but then noticed that the confessional walls were tastefully decorated, the floor was expensively carpeted, a small shelf contained a selection of fine wines and cigars, and there were some small but expensive paintings on the walls too. "Well, this is a surprise", he thought, "things have certainly changed since I was here last". Just then the door opened, and he turned around to find the priest glaring at him. "Get out of there, you idiot" said the priest angrily. "That's my side!" rgmwa

Gnu, nobody is perfect and like all of us, I've done and said a few things in my 6 or so decades that I am not particularly proud of and would change if I could. However, I'm also not looking for redemption. I'm prepared to accept responsibility for myself and whatever I've done wrong, and I'm not at all concerned about facing whatever the future may bring, if anything. I certainly don't feel the need to rely on a Saviour or anybody else to rescue me or forgive me my sins. Perhaps that's where you and I differ. Just for the record, I had a sound Catholic upbringing - head altar boy, regular church attendance, confession. etc. I gave it away in my teens when I grew old enough to start thinking for myself and question some of the things I'd been told all my life. For instance, what do you think the average 7 year old has done that requires going to confession for the first time to ask forgiveness? All I could think of was pinching a tomato from the garden at my mate's place one weekend. It wasn't much, but it was all I could come up with to take to the priest in the confessional on the day. Penalty - three Hail Mary's and an Our Father, and I was good for another week. Pretty pathetic really, given what some of the clergy were obviously up to at the time. On another occasion, when I was about 16 my mates were around one afternoon and the topic was religion. I was a Catholic, the father of one of my friends was the C of E minister, another one was also C of E and the last was a Lutheran. My younger sister who was about 13 came in and at one point said to the Lutheran "why don't you become a Catholic?". He simply said, "I don't want to". I can still see the incredulous expression on my sister's face. She simply couldn't understand how anyone would turn down an offer of eternal salvation so casually. She had been brought up to believe that the Catholics had it right and all the others were heathens and on their way to Hell unless they could be saved. Sounds a lot like what you're trying to tell us, doesn't it? Sorry, but I just can't buy it. rgmwa

Gnu, history demonstrates pretty clearly that people of blind faith, no faith and all shades of faith in between are collectively responsible for what has happened in the past and continues today. I don't understand why you persist in demonising one particular group when there is plenty of culpability to go around. rgmwa

Maybe Ian should change the name of the site from Recreational Flying to Recreational Salvation to make it more relevant. rgmwa

Biblical version of elephant in the room? rgmwa

In which countries was Atheism ever implemented as a religion? Even in countries like Australia where many people have atheist views, they live side by side with people like yourself who have different world views. The same was/is true in all other countries I can think of. As far as "the desire to suppress anyone who doesn't agree with Atheist views" goes, well you can substitute almost any other belief system you like in that sentence including Christianity in its various forms. rgmwa

Meant to and in principle, yes - goes with the job. However, whatever he personally believes, he also has to try to interpret those ancient and questionable biblical texts and words attributed to JC in a way that makes religious, scientific and political sense in current times. The world is a vastly different place to what it was a couple of thousand years ago. I think he's doing his best to jog the conservative church hierarcy out of some out-dated and entrenched political and religious postions but whether he succeeds or not remains to be seen. rgmwa

That assumes that because it's in the Bible it must be true - a very shaky proposition IMO. rgmwa

Based on what he said, full marks to the Pope for doing his best to use the scientific method (fitting theory to observation) to explain Life, the Universe and Everything. However, his explanation still doesn't sound very convincing to me. rgmwa (ex-rc)

I always understood that there were originally 15 Commandments, but because Moses accidentally dropped one of the tablets on his way down the mountain, we only ever got to see ten. Now I find there are 613! This is the most educational thread I've read in ages. rgmwa

Hmmm. Sounds alright, but now I'm a bit worried that the endless perfection might eventually make me die of boredom. Is that possible, I wonder? Wouldn't I already be dead? But then, I suppose that boredom would be prohibited in a perfect world, wouldn't it, so I might be OK. On the other hand, it's probably an academic question. If the place is really only open to the believers as you say, then I'm going to struggle to get through the door. And even if I did, I doubt that any of my friends and relatives would be there anyway. Sorry for rambling on a bit. Just thinking out loud. rgmwa

So what do you imagine heaven would be like, rev? rgmwa

No, just hiding our ignorance. rgmwa