DonRamsay

To be fair, Turbs is right to the extent that I think some on here have expressed the view that they became atheist because they "lost their faith" due to things their God had allowed to happen (to the world in general or themselves in particular). For some this was evidence that there is no God. They may not have reached that conclusion if bad things hadn't happened to them or around them. Me personally, I enjoyed being religious. I was right into it apart from the converting the rest of the world part. Over a period of time as I came to know more of the world and comparative religions, I came to the conclusion that there was no evidence of the God or even any God. It seemed to me that there is a basic human need for people to understand and put there life into perspective. Some are happy with the uncertainty of not knowing everything and the joy of discovery. Others crave completeness and anything they don't understand is washed away with the "God works in mysterious ways". My view is the purpose for life is to live it. You only get one go at it before your atoms disassemble , which is a pity because I know I could do a much better job next time around. My clock is winding down and I'm going to get the most out of life. I don't know why (it could be an evolutionary survival technique) but I want to live life in a way that allows me to feel good about myself. For me that requires living ethically. I know I could do a better job of that but in the important things I'm not completely disappointed. I just hope that the theists of the world would realise that the only way to guarantee freedom of religion is to guarantee freedom to be religious or not. Muslims do not want freedom of religion and plenty of Christian schisms don't either - even if they don't pursue their intolerance like they once did. Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone! (tick . . . tick . . . tick . . . )

Gnarly, here are seven things you shouldn't say to the atheist in your family: 1. “Why are you angry with God?” Atheists are no angrier with God than with the Tooth Fairy. Only God-believers can be angry with God. Some people might have become atheists because they are not satisfied with theodicy explanations about why a good and powerful god would allow so much evil in the world, but most have become atheists primarily because they find no evidence for the existence of any gods. 2. “You'll be a believer when you have a big problem.” This is an offshoot of the “no atheists in foxholes” cliché. (See, for instance, the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers.) Atheists tend to address problems by looking for practical solutions to resolve them, and through supportive friends, family, and medical doctors. Many believers “talk” to God only when they have a problem, so such a comment is more applicable to theists than to atheists. 3. “Why are you rejecting our family? Was it our fault?” Would you ask this question of a family member who voted for a different political candidate? Would you rather the atheist simply lie or remain silent (as others in the family might actually be doing)? 4. “I feel sorry for you.” How would you feel if the atheist says he feels sorry for you because you are basing your life on nonsense? Would a Christian tell a Jew that he feels sorry for him? Atheists don’t feel sorry for themselves, nor do they feel deprived of something real. We don’t need to believe in God to find joy in our lives. 5. “You got into a bad crowd.” True, the family member might have been influenced by discussions with friends or books they have read. It might be a different crowd, but it’s not likely to be a bad one. Atheists might say they no longer mindlessly believe the religious things they were taught when they were growing up. 6. “Don’t assume that your beliefs are right.” You believe your views are correct, but your atheist family member also thinks his/her views are correct. Anyone who changes from religious beliefs has likely thought it through very carefully, perhaps a lot more so than those who stay with the religion in which they were raised. 7. “We just want to make sure you will be with us in heaven.” This makes an atheist think that your God is petty and arbitrary. Why would a loving God ignore good works and condemn someone to hell solely because of an incorrect belief? Also, we question why a component of your eternal bliss in heaven wouldn’t include having your loved ones there with you, rather than being tortured for eternity.

If you laugh at this you are a bad person: [ATTACH]47522._xfImport[/ATTACH] Click on the picture if you don't have a magnifying glass handy . . .

If you look hard you can see this is religious humour even if not too much to do with aviation. [ATTACH]47521._xfImport[/ATTACH]

Bauxite isn't it? Where does it go now?

YPGV . . . 2,000 metres of tarmac - should be long enough to get your green and gold jet in. Any good jobs going there?

Thanks Turbs, I do try to amuse. What can I say, I spent a lot of my misspent youth in the study of religious doctrine. Seems a shame not to use the knowledge I gained to good effect. See, I don't just don't think your God is any less of a myth than all the other Gods. I can't discriminate. The one invisible, mythical person I *know* existed was my younger sister's invisible friend. I often heard her talking to him. Thanks Turbs and you are right about not all written yet and a few may even get rewritten in my lifetime. Tom Cruise and John Travolta are offended by that remark! Which all gets us back to the fact that you never answer my arguments you just dismiss them out of hand because I'm quoting a document that you know I don't accept as credible. Point is, some people on here find it not just credible but factual. Even you hint that it may contain some historical fact. So, by your own sources stand and deliver.

Perhaps I should have said the Laws of Science thereby including the Theory of Evolution. Successful social groups have been so because of what I would normally "ethics" but in evolutionary terms it might be explained as fooling around with somebody else's wife is liable to get you taken out of the gene pool in an ugly fashion. Similarly, if you don't want people to mess with your stuff, not messing with theirs is a smart start point. My personal theory is that these ethics have become hard wired and it explains why most people in the world are pretty decent. The few that make things ugly for everyone else are acting counter to their nature or their wiring was defective from birth or has been tampered with psychologically, physically or chemically. To cut the crap for a moment, my love of ethics has no conscious connection with evolution theory or group dynamics. Ethical behaviour to me feels good and makes a lot of sense even if others around you act unethically. Take tax fraud for example. I have made it a lifelong practice to never cheat on my tax return but many, many do. Plenty even boast about it. Of the 613 commandments, you only mention two. Admittedly most of the 613 don't bear repeating in the third millennium CE. Here's how I rate the famous ten (as I recall them): 1. I am the LORD thy God Thou shalt have no other gods etc. - A vain god who is afraid of being supplanted 2 Do Not take the LORD's name in vain - more vanity 3 Remember the sabbath day - keep holy - more vanity 4 Honour thy father and thy mother - Worthwhile as long as they deserve honour - mine certainly did but plenty deserve gaol terms for what they do and don't do for their kids. Have a look through the Dept of Community Services files one day. 5 Thou shalt not kill - basic common sense - what society exists comfortably where murder is not an issue? 6 Thou shalt not commit adultery - Depends what you call adultery. To paraphrase the weatherman 'tis a bad shag indeed that does nobody any good. 7 Thou shalt not steal - basic common sense see 5 above 8 Thou shalt not bear false witness - basic common sense see 5 above 9 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife - This is a subset of 6. Coveting could lead to breaching 6, 8 and even 5 and, depending on who lives next door, 4. 10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods - This is a subset of 7

Thank God we got back to theism versus atheism - that political stuff was beyond belief!

"But as long as they keep rambling on about God and the next world, I guess I am entitled to do the same" This is exactly why Atheists quote the Bible to Christians. You lot keep banging on about stuff and quote the Bible at us to support your argument. Turning your own source back on you seems totally fair to me. But really, I'm with horsefeathers "an atheist doesn't care at all about such things. Play your heaven and hell routines, your fear of divine retribution amongst yourselves, and that's altogether fine. But I personally couldn't give tuppence about such nonsense." And Turbo, while I'm proving to you that God doesn't exist would you also like me to prove to you that the Tooth Fairy, the Abominable Snowman and the Easter Bunny, Thor and Odin, Zeus and his lot also don't exist. And while I'm at it should I also disprove that a human is an immortal, spiritual being, that is in a physical body and that the thetan has had innumerable past lives and that in lives preceding the thetan's arrival on Earth, lived in extraterrestrial cultures? Would it be OK if I used quotations from the Bible to disprove all that? Or would it be OK if I just continue to ignore all that the supernatural nonsense and live my life obeying the laws of physics? p.s. If the Theory of Evolution had been proved would it not be called a Law rather than a Theory? Are you OK with the Theories of Relativity? or are they not really true and just theories?

That your best shot Turbo? The Bible I quote from is your authority not mine. No point quoting my Bible at you. Disappointed in this summary dismissal of my brilliant response to your ordinary post. After I slave over your writings and put up half a dozen counters without ever getting personal and all you can do is complain about me quoting your "facts" to you. I guess you were pressed for time.

Faith does come into it for me because I'm too lazy to do the measuring and observing for myself. But I have faith in Scientific Method and in the scientific community to do sound peer reviews. I can't even be bothered to thoroughly understand Relativity but I know it is a pretty good explanation for a lot of things. Evolution is the only one you don't need faith for - just look into the eyes of a great ape and if you can't see a family reseblence then you'd better get yourself off to Specsavers!

Little do you know of my 12 disciples. They know who they are and and how to greet one another with our secret handshake. Atheists don't have to deny that your God exists. I don't wander around denying the existence of the Tooth fairy either. Or the Easter Bunny. There may well be history written in the bible but it is a very long bow to draw to claim it is factual. It is a story written and re-written, by many men, over thousands of years, in languages that have long ceased to exist and cannot be reliably translated or interpreted, and those writers all had a particular bias in their thinking and understanding and interpretation of events they claimed to witness. Provenance for any printed bible is non-existent. Nothing in the bible would ever past the most basic test of authenticity for an historian. Can't say I've ever been disappointed by God. The writing on the wall in the concentration camp was not, thank God, my writing. Most likely, it was some terribly unfortunate person living in hell with the prospect of unspeakable terror all around. Can't blame them for a momentary lapse in their faith - even JC had one of those "why hast thou forsaken me?". I was very happy as a Christian. I loved the feeling it gave me of purpose and contentment of doing and being good. But I was young at the time and believed everything my teachers told me. Some aspects of it seemed strange to me, illogical but nobody was asking me to think just accept that we can't understand the way God works and that he works in mysterious ways. It was even suggested that it was sinful to try to understand the inconsistencies. Just have faith and all will be well. Don't want to be a doubting thomas do we? Eventually, you grow up and with an enquiring mind, question everything. Religion is addictive and very hard to walk away from. And the closer you get to the fox hole of advanced old age the harder it is to be an atheist. My personal belief, yes I allow myself one, is that if I live a good life and don't do anything that I would personally rate as a "Mortal Sin" (as opposed to the many invented by the catholic clergy to keep themselves in employment) that if I am to be judged I would be judged fairly by a fair and just God. I cannot imagine how anyone came up with the concept of punishment for the sins of your forebears. Whether you call it Original Sin or not GG, you infer the same thing with painful childbirth etc. Could you imagine going into Court in the most corrupt legal system in the world and being punished for a crime convicted by your g.g.g.g.g.g.g.g (etc) grandfather? And that your children and their children would also be punished for the same crime committed 6,000 years ago? If you don't believe in the concept behind a religious doctrine whether it be Scientology or Norse Gods or Judeo/Christian/Islamic why would it matter who or how it was invented? "atheist hate" this would be hate that is expressed by atheists? I agree with others that "disdain" would be more appropriate than hate. But, to be fair, some prominent atheists have expressed hatred for indoctrination of small children as being a form of child abuse. I doubt that in doing that whether the atheists would distinguish between any of the multitudinous Faiths who practice such indoctrination. There is a bit of an uproar in the USA at the moment about Christians who insist their children will be cured by prayer and not doctors and the children die in droves as prayers have the usual effect. I think most Christians would hate this as much as atheists. But some Christian-dominated state governments in the USA will not intervene on behalf of the children against the wishes of their delusional parents. Oh, and I think I've been pretty even handed in my disdain for all religions. I don't know much about the Jewish faith other than what I've read in Christian versions of Jewish scriptures. Can't say I care for most of the 613 commandments. And then there are the capital crimes of heresy and apostasy invented by the Muslims but also practiced by Christians until relatively recent times. I don't feel any more need to explore Scientology than I do Mormonism or any other religious doctrine. Why would I when you have the religion of science - and that ain't Scientology.

Gnarly, will we see a retraction from you of that absurd video and an admission that the surgeon knows what he's talking about? Or, let me guess, you will continue to accept as gospel everyone of those under-educated over-zealous people tell you? I won't hold my breath.

But even still, there is a fair argument that morality is built into us as a part of evolution. Successful social groups observe patterns of behaviour which are morality in practice as opposed to a theory of morality. Even the most abhorrently violent social groups from the Romans to the Vikings to Genghis Khan to the Mafia to the CFMEU or the US Marines have a pattern of behaviour within the group that would constitute a form of morality. Without morality groups are susceptible to anarchy and disunity and extinction.

So, GG, explain to me the peerless logic of hating something that doesn't exist. Turbo might even be able to help you with that one without a single reference to the Goat Herders personal development manual. One thing is so terribly clear, logic is an optional extra and a definite hindrance to people who would prefer believing to thinking. Makes you wonder why God gave his chosen few a brain. And of course an omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful Being that loves us all has the power to create and allow Evil people to do all the evil in the world but no power to stop evil. Hang on, what was I thinking? God works in mysterious ways and we should never try to understand anything just accept. And please don't credit us with being anti theism. It's just not for us because we'd rather think than believe. We do resent being lectured to from the Goat Herders manual though.

Or as a Jew in a NAZI concentration camp put it: [ATTACH]47513._xfImport[/ATTACH]

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I don't know of specific examples that have been corroborated but, even if you knew down to the minute when some biblical event happened would you be able to corroborate the meaning of that event? Who said what to whom and what they meant by that? And you would still be looking at history written from the slant of the people who wrote it. No peer review of the writings would exist. And from that, can you logically extrapolate that other biblical events, for which there is no corroboration, would also be proven to be true? When I was in Jordan in 2009, we drove past the site that is said to be the burial place of Aaron, Moses's brother. Anyone know where the mortal remains of Moses were/are interred? While in South America a few years back we were treated to a song by some women in native costume on the luxury train journey between Cusco and Puno (Lake Titicaca). They looked and sounded more Chinese than the Chinese. It was stunning. All on our tour were similarly struck by the amazing similarity. Easy to see that DNA sampling would support such an observation. Unrelated to anyof the above, the train in Peru stopped along the way at a little place known as Agua Calientes (hot springs). The altitude of the station was 14,300 feet. So, I've been higher in a train than in any aircraft I ever have or will pilot. And I've ridden a motorcycle faster (257 km/h or 139 knots) than I've ever been in an aircraft of which I was PIC. Like I said unrelated . . . .

Turbo, I am always intrigued by your use of the singular when it comes to deities. Monotheism has been around for a long time but multi-theism has been vastly more popular even to the present. GG: where were they all? Well, Mungo Man was discovered in 1974 in the dry lake bed of Lake Mungo in west NSW. Mungo Man was a hominin who was estimated to have died 62,000 years ago and was ritually buried with his hands covering his penis. Clearly a Christian burial showing respect for modesty. He was not from the same genetic branch of the more modern aborigines who are thought to have emigrated from islands off Japan. May have been forced out by the invading Chinese/Koreans who founded Japan. Wouldn't want you to die wondering what the second people were doing over the last 40 to 60 millennia. [ATTACH]47508._xfImport[/ATTACH]

Of course Harry never believed in Psychics and had an arrangement with his mother to give him a sign from the other side, obviously, after she died. She never did. He was convinced Psychics were frauds before his mum carked it. He spent a lot of time and money exposing the charlatans.

So, what you are telling us GG is that people who live in a country ruled by a totalitarian government do not enjoy much freedom? Well there's a shock! You don't have to be an atheist to be a Dictator and run a totalitarian government. So, if it is a Theist totalitarian government, then everyone is free to do and say as they please? Like in the Theist dictatorship of Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia? And of course, democratically elected Christian governments (like you would find in Serbia) never commit genocide or conduct a "holy war" ("Jihad" in Arabic) against people who are not of the same religious persuasion? Give me a break! And the predominantly Christian Germany didn't murder 6 million Jews plus a few mentally ill and a heap of Gypsies and all the homosexuals they could find? How about his catholic majesty General Franco in Spain? Lovely Christian fellow who ran a dictatorship with all the ruthlessness of a Roman Ceasar. Or what about General Peron in Argentina who used to throw his opponents out of planes at 10,000 feet AMSL? Or the very Christian General Pinochet in Chile who did much the same sort of thing. Now I'll let you in on a secret if you promise not to tell anyone. Both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are closet atheists. In the USA the persecution of Atheists is such that nobody can admit to being one without suffering a severe backlash from the religious fundamentalists of the extreme right. Are you OK with that? As usual GG, you mix up totalitarian and atheism. They are not synonyms. Compared to North Korea "the most repressive state on the planet" what could be worse? Let's start with Syria? They could teach the North Koreans a thing or two about torture. Could there be a more dangerous country to live in? And it is run by fervent Theists with more fundamentalist God Botherers trying to replace them. Then there are the Theists who control Iran and who worship the same God as you and think nothing of hanging blasphemers from a mobile hydraulic crane in the middle of Tehran. Doesn't sound like freedom to me. Then there is the very Christian Serbia that practiced genocide against Muslims until the good Christians were bombed into submission by that Godless Communist organisation "NATO". GG, please don't just swallow everything your born again american evangelists tell you about "Godless Communism". The two terms can exist independently of one another and while most Communist governments were corrupted by absolute power the same thing happens in most theist states where power becomes concentrated in the hands of one person or just a few. Look at Ho Chi Minh, a communist but a wonderful human being who did great good for his people despite the best efforts of the Christian French and born again Americans. Ho had helped the USA's OSS fighting the Japanese during WWII. The US promised Uncle Ho a unified Vietnam under his leadership after the war. But, when the war ended the scummy French wanted their IndoChina colonies back and the USA caved in to them. Result? Millions died in Indochina, mostly Vietnamese but 50,000 Americans and 500 Australians as well. And why? Because the Americans hated Godless Communists. Ho did a wonderful job for his people once he'd beaten the French, Americans, ANZACS and liberated his country from the totally corrupt regime in the South. Try thinking for yourself GG not just swallowing the propaganda of the faithful.

He's a God in China!

Aboriginal history might be long but they lacked what the Egyptians did - write it down. Not sure it would be a very interesting history even if their oral history is very colourful and even poetic. After the big and very unexpected Newcastle Earthquake (25 years ago) a story from the dream time came to light that a giant kangaroo lived inside Nobbys Island (at mouth of the Hunter River). Seems when the Kangaroo got upset he would slap his tail around and the ground would shake. Possible this story was invented post earthquake of course but if it wasn't it might have given the earth scientists a heads up. Incidentally, I don't believe there was or is such a thing as a Giant Kangaroo living inside a hilly island at the entry to the Port of Newcastle, but what would I know? I'm just and atheist and don't know sh!t.

Turbo, I am a keen amateur student of all things Egyptology. It is the only place in the world outside Australia where I would like to re-visit. Regardless of how brilliant the Amalfi coast is and how lovely a time we spent there, nothing matches the spectacle of Egypt. Easily the civilisation with the greatest longevity (that we know of). We know so much of ancient Egypt because of two things: they wrote lots of stuff down; and, the weather is extremely dry and stuff does rot away in the extreme dryness. The paint on the ceiling of the stupendous tomb of my ancestor Ramsays IV (historians keep misspelling our name Ramses :-/ ) still has brilliant gold and blue clearly visible. Even on the "verandah" of the temple of Hatshepsut you can see paint colours clearly. However, our personal interest in Egyptology is a bit of a thread stretch don't you think?