turboplanner

Oops, I spoke too soon, we're back to accusing the President of the United States 0f being a murderer. Could you confirm that you did see my post regarding the numbers of elected people in Congress who make these decisions?

Ian owns the rights to the content

They are too careless about who they accept for membership

Yes, he does, just try selling the rights.

All offers welcome but we're not going cheap

I'm quite encouraged to see you coming down from accusations that leaders are murderers, to just criminals, but you need some beyond doubt evidence, so let's hear it.

Two things: 1. I just grabbed information from where I could find it over the last couple of days 2. In several posts on this thread people have googled and found controversial issues with some authors - that doesn't necessarily damn them and negate the parts of their works which are corroborated. Graham Hancock Archaeology is a very formal doctrine which primarily looks for physical remains, and sometimes draws conclusions A branch of this, Egyptology was finding artifacts and buildings that couldn't be rationally explained, and bred a branch of archaeologists known as Egyptologists Those people made a series of assertions when they found things that couldn't be explained, and for years they closed ranks on anyone who chose to disagree. In Chariots of the Gods, Erich of Daniken went round the world looking at archeological anomalies, and postulated that aliens had built them, since we couldn't produce most of them even today. Around 1989 Graham Hancock went round the world looking at many of these anomalies, and tried to find rational explanations which didn't involve aliens. As part of this he found a lot of porkies, particularly in relation to Egypt. The Egyptologists descended on him like a pack of locusts, with denials and alternative explanations, and it was hard to know who was telling the truth. The comment you quoted would be one of the mildest insults levelled at him. His work seems to have inspired a lot of work from a lot of people, the digital age has sped up release and correlation of new data, and he has a different standing today, although he's till out there at the cutting edge of controversy. I find his work entertaining, but still look for confirmation. Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight Christopher Knight goes way out there, but the things he finds encourages people to dig for more data - look at him that way Louis Charpentier What he said about Gothic design was about what everyone else was saying, and as posted elsewhere a new Cathedral design in 7 years qualifies as sudden in my opinion.

It wasn't 100 years. The Knights Templar left Jerusalem in 1128 Building started on the first Gothic building in 1135 - so that's just seven years for the Planning and Design phase It's not really a conspiracy, someone just found some existing plans which had been produced a long time previously.

Because you are driven Mike.

And, as we've seen in this thread, it wasn't, but rather a risky statement because if someone had said "What is it founded on then?" he would have had to say "God"

He was aware alright; he was driving the programme for the New Jerusalem (as in the Nasorean/Jerusalem. The Christians of every denomination were all the ones in the Saul downstream, so my take on that statement is that he was trying to promote an even greater softening to the point where none of them asked too many questions about the past, and all of them ultimately prayed to God anyway. If what I outlined about the time of Jesus Christ gets momentum up and becomes public on a wide scale the denominations could still say "Ah well sh$t happens, let's just pray to God then and forget about the Jesus situation.

Well it's safe to say that's never going to happen without a totally repressive government which we wouldn't want anyway. What I pointed out in relation to the USA is that far from religion and politics being separated at the start, the Star family ensured that the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the layout of the City incorporating the pentastar were all very carefully planned in God's interests rather than Saul's "Christianity", any other religion, or uninfluenced debate of the fledgling government. That has continued with the Pentagon and other buildings and even into the NASA space programme involving the landing on the moon. I'm saying there is a God presence at work.

I was wrong about the Templars being unskilled. As you can see below they were highly skilled in architecture and building. For Chartres Cathedral to be built to information dug up at Jerusalem rather that evolving from Romanesque, the items would have to have been unknown and non existant prior to the return of the Templars from Jerusalem, so when comparing timelines on Chartres Cathedral with Durham Cathedral, I have no argument with: Flying Buttresses Rib vaulted ceilings Pointed Arches I don't have a problem regarding the size because that would be an evolution rather than a new concept. I quoted egg shell thin walls and massive windows resulting from new technology (not the above items) I could have a problem with Flying Buttresses because the material I looked at said they allowed thinner walls - so unless the method I remembered allowed even thinner walls, then flying buttresses become part of the success story. So everything I claimed had to come from under Solomon's Temple or I was talking BS I waded through books and the internet for days, and only came up with one new structural item - the ogive Then I realised I'd seen it all in a TV documentary and tried to find that, but came up empty The documentary used a scale model which for each engineering component was loaded to failure, then the new item was added and the structure held. I remember the ceiling loading the top of the walls to the point they were pushed outwards and collapsed, then buttressing and tying from the inside somewhere which removed most of the roof load from the wall and had an anti bulge component. However, something was going on engineering-wise because these were not only monsters - a 28% width and 68% Nave height advantage over Durham, but a lot more light inside. Also four or five sources mentioned a sudden change in design after the Templars came back from Jerusalem. The art of making that particular glass was lost very quickly - before the building programme had finished. Even though Chartres is exponentially bigger and more complicated than Durham it was built in only 65% of the time. And then there's the question - why would you build a monster like this in a town of only 3,000 people. I've posted some information here, but what absolutely blew me away is that Chartres, and probably Notre Dame and the rest incorporated the sacred Egyptian dimensions which were used to lay out Washington DC, and are still used in share trading today, so there is a possible link to the tantalising Very High Civilization I'm definitely going over to Chartres to have a look. CATHEDRALS Timeline Durham Cathedral started: 1093 AD completed: 1133 – 40 years Knights Templar established: 1118 Knights Templar left Jerusalem: 1128 Chartres Cathedral started: 1194 Chartres Cathedral completed: 1220 - 26 years Dimensions Durham Cathedral Chartres Cathedral Variation Nave width: 25 m (81 feet) 32 m (105 feet) +28% Nave Height: 22 m (73 feet) 37 m (121 feet) +68% Tower Height: 66 m (218 feet) 113 m (371 feet) +71% Photos S2754 Chartres interior Source: Wikimedia Commons by Eric Pahier S2755 Chartres aerial Source: Wikipedia S2756 Durham interior Source: Wikimedia Commons by Oliver- Bontoch[ATTACH=full]32765[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]32766[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]32767[/ATTACH] The sudden appearance of Gothic architecture The Sign and the Seal: Graham Hancock “Historians had never been able to account adequately for the sudden way in which the Gothic architecture had emerged in France in the 1130s” Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral: Sir Ronald Fraser .,. the Gothic mode, which came into being suddenly…… The Hiram Key: Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas These buildings were built to a startling new plan on a scale never seen before Cathedrals and the Knights Templar “In a single century from 1170 no fewer than eighty Cathedrals and almost five hundred Abbeys were built in France alone, involving more masonry than was ever cut in ancient Egypt. These buildings were built to a startling new plan on a scale never seen before. A classic example of these super-buildings is Chartres Cathedral, which soars skyward in a composition of ornate pillars and glass. The masons at this building and others across the country were directed by the Knights Templar, whose mission was stated as seeking to “rebuild Jerusalem” in a glorious new architectural style of pillars, towers and Heaven-seeking spires. Before, we could find no previous explanation as to why the Templars suddenly took it into their heads to become master builders of a Heavenly Jerusalem in their home country, but now it all suddenly made sense to us. The instructions that the nine knights recovered from the vaults of the temple at Jerusalem had been left by the Nasoreans just before they failed in their own mission to build Heaven on Earth. James and his followers died without bringing the Kingdom of Heaven which Jesus had promised his followers, but they had left a very clear message behind them. The Nasorean scrolls could not have been found by more responsive people. The Templars took the ancient Ma’at-inspired, speculative Masonic secrets of Jesus and James for their own initiation purposes and proceeded to give the world a new, supreme level of operative masonry. Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral by Sir Ronald Fraser, derived from Les Mysteres de la Cathedrale de Chartres by M. Louis Charpentier M. Charpentier maintains that the Gothic mode, which came into being suddenly, was purposeful. Who taught the builders how to balance weight and counterweight, to arrange masses of stone so that the building vibrates to the tap of a fingernail? How to make glass that might have come from an alchemist's crucible? Who communicated the secret of ogive and pointed arch, and to whom? Nobody knows. Our author suggests that the Gothic mode expressed a principle the gods wished to make effective - a procedure that corresponds with the manifestation of a higher will that was regular in Egypt. Indeed, some measurements at Chartres correspond with those of the Great Pyramid, not to mention Solomon's temple. The Gothic mode appeared after the first Crusade and after the return to France in 1128 of the first nine knights templar. The facts suggest that those who promoted it expected a potent effect from the ogival device on which the style rests. At Chartres the ogive is based on the five-pointed star, often regarded as a symbol of Man (in Egypt for instance). The star is enclosed in a circle whose diameter is the height of the vault. We note that whereas the well is 37 metres below the choir the vault is about 37 metres above it. The length of the nave is in the relation of an octave with the length of the choir; the width of the nave is in relation of an octave with the width of the aisles. These proportions are also found in the elevation. Line and angle, height and width, the system of verticals and horizontals, reveal a series of intervals, a musical scale, in accord with the five-pointed star. Now the author links his theme with the Crusades and a visit in 1118 of nine knights templar to Jerusalem, where King Baldwin handed them for their sole use a house on the site of Solomon's temple. Their ostensible purpose was to form a small force to police the public roads and protect pilgrims from thieves and murderers. But didn't this overt assignment mask another and secret task? It looks as if they were allotted the house on the site of Solomon's temple by act of some over-riding will. The Templar Revelation, the secret guardians of the true identity of Christ: Lin Pickett, Clive Prince The Templars, it seems, had acquired exotic and heretical knowledge, but was it by accident or design? The evidence points to the latter.The Knights Templar were the prime overs behind the building of the grand Gothic cathedrals, especially that of Chartres. Throughout the long history of the great cathedrals, the strange symbolism of their decoration snd design has been puzzled over by experts from many disciplines. It is only recently that it has been seen for what it undoubtedly was, the Templars encoding of esoteric knowledge. Graham Hancock when discussing the sacred architecture of the ancient Egyptians notes that “it has been equalled in Europe only in the great gothic cathedrals of the Middle Ages such as Chartres” and poses the question “was this an accident?” Hancock continues: “I had long suspected that there had indeed been a connection and that the Knights Templar through their discoveries during the Crusades, might have formed the missing link in the chain of transmission of secret architectural knowledge . “St Bernard, the Templars patron had defined God as “length, width, height and depth”. “Nor could I forget that the Templars themselves had been great builders and great architects, or that the Cistercian monastic order to which St. Bernard belonged had also excelled in this particular field of human endeavour.” [ATTACH]47488._xfImport[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]47489._xfImport[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]47490._xfImport[/ATTACH]

I would go along with that; he got through a message that none of the politicians have been able to put together. Gough of course had a unique charisma, and Jim Killen wasn't far behind. One of the Sydney radio personalities organised a public debate between the two, the subject being "The Australian Flag" Gough was given the job of arguing that it should be changed and Killen had the job of arguing why it should not. It was an electrifying hour or so of debate which had you saying one way then the other then back again. There was side splitting humour right through it, and at stage Gough, who had been pushing the point that the Australian flag just wasn't recognised overseas. He gave an illustration which went something like: "When I was Chairman of Unesco in Paris, Fosters came to France and launched the brand of beer "It wasn't long before the other half of duopoly decided that it too would enter the market, bringing over Fourex itself. "Now at that time Fourex was the brand of the most popular French condom. "The problem came with the lyric "I can feel a Fourex coming on!" A decade or so later I'd flown to Perth on business. The first day was always about fifteen hours or so because of the time difference. I was staying at the Palmyra and after showering I got in the lift to go down to dinner, and was so exhausted I just had my head down looking at the floor. I heard the lift door open a floor or so down, and took no notice, but sensing something I lifted my head slightly and with a start realised I was looking at someone's fly. Looking up to see who this giant was I found myself looking into the face of Gough with that smile playing around the side of the mouth, and the aura of charisma. I burst out laughing and said "You wouldn't believe it, I was just listening to your flag debate last night" Gough looked confused and said "oh, oh but that was years ago" and I explained I'd taped it. Quick as a flash he said "Did you like the one about the Fourex!"

Most of what you've said here is baseless, and based on the human inability to restrain themselves from looking over a fence designed for privacy. I can be pretty certain they aren't screwing goats though, because I read the story of Baphomet, and from memory it was pretty much irrelevent to serious history. What I would recommend you do is buy the book: http://www.amazon.com/Hiram-Key-Pharaohs-Freemasons-Discovery/dp/1931412758/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415430987&sr=1-1&keywords=the+hiram+key For a few dollars it's a very informative read, packed with the facts uncovered by the researchers. I know you have the intelligence to handle the complexity of the story, and from what you are saying here, it will give you an entirely different outlook on history. If Knight and Lomas have their research correct, the William StClair was a brilliant strategist who was able to operate under the radar of the Roman Catholics who were hell bent on killing anyone they felt had different information to Saul's invention of Christianity. He knew the elaborate underground structure would take a long time to complete, and he knew secrets often leaked out, so he paid his key people forty pounds a year and that included what we today would refer as white collar workers and ensured they all lived their lives out in luxury in return for total silence on the project. That this silence has continued for hundreds of years is a credit to a very clever man. Knight and Lomas both went through the Masonic process and have very carefully tried to ensure they kept to their vows as Masons. While I've been quoting from the book, I've only been quoting to suit the religious matter relevant to this thread. That means there are hundreds of pages explaining freemasonry and providing explanations of its origins that many Masons would be intrigued by, and would be learning for the first time, although not all of them. In 2012, travelling between Townsville and Cairns, we pulled in to a roadside stop and found Freemasons were supplying free coffee and biscuits. Having just read this book and being a smartarxx, I walked straight up and said to one of the guys "Why are the stone steps down to the crypt under Roslyn Chapel so worn?" I was expecting a blank look and a stammer, but BOOM, he told me exactly why, how it was not a Chapel and why, and kept my mouth wide open and drooling for probably an hour - brilliant knowledge!

No sh$t Einstine, that's their heartland.

Which seats?

We certainly won't; we haven't found out how to gag you on Wellcamp.

If you're talking about Pacific Islanders, I was present in a meeting when a Community leader gave a slide show showing kids walking to school in knee deep water. The community bought an island off New Zealand where they all intend to move to. However later information of the flooding of their island, which we all used as the litmus test example, including myself, has show the problem is subsidence of their land rather than a major rise in ocean levels. Ocean levels are very easily verified. For example, in Australia land levels and tide levels are measured from datum points such as the Williamstown obelisk in Melbourne which has a vertical shaft linked to Port Phillip Bay, and the sill of the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

You're lucky Geoff, look what us God fearing people are copping on the Atheist thread; I wonder if he's growing long white hair?

As we know he had to have lied to get in. I don't know what the procedure is in that case, but I suspect he would be booted out.

That's understandable it was Christians who murdered the Templars, Freemasonry on current knowledge was started by Templar William StClair and Freemasonry doesn't get tangle up the the downstream effect of Saul's porkies, so they would want to shut Freemasons down. It's interesting that while, as quite a few people have mentioned on this forum, Christians have been involved in wars and killings, the Masons have gone quietly about their business doing good things year after year for around seven centuries, and leave the world a better place for their being here.

Yes, in the book of Enoch I'm not sure how they fit in but they may be linked to the Viracochas of South America who taught and did good things - a little towards the "Angel" tag

It's certainly excluding Atheists.

Maybe you misunderstood what I said: "As we go back through ancient civilizations there are many who have a single God reference, even though they are quite unrelated geographically." The many civilizations with a SINGLE God is the starting point for research, then winding back up the trees to try to find a root language Many civilizations had weird customs or multiple gods - the early Romans are a good example. I'm referring more to "Soul" spirits rather than the subject of "Ghost" spirits