turboplanner

I'm happy to be corrected with more precise wording, but it can't be Satan or anyone else, there is only one architect of the universe and this information points out who it is. [ATTACH]47487._xfImport[/ATTACH]

You're kidding me - you weren't aware of this? Before becoming a Freemason, a man is asked “Do you believe in God?” If he doesn’t it doesn’t proceed. Thomas Jefferson, who drafted the Declaration of Independence was a Freemason Freemasons who signed the United States Constitution Gunning Bedford Jr Delaware First Grand Master of Delaware John Blair Virginia First Grand Master of Virginia David Brearly New Jersey First Grand Master of New Jersey Jacob Broom Delaware Officer in his Lodge Daniel Carroll Maryland Mason, participated in the Masonic cornerstone laying of the US Capitol with George Washington Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Member Temple Lodge No1, Elizabethtown John Dickinson Delaware Lodge member, Dover Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Grand Master of Pennsylvania Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Member, St Johns Lodge No1, Portsmouth Rufus King Massachusetts Member, St Johns Lodge, Newburyport James McHenry Maryland Member, Spiritual Lodge No 23 William Paterson New Jersey Member, Trenton Lodge No 5 George Washington Virginia Alexandria Lodge No 22 39 people signed the Constitution, 33% were Freemasons There is a datum point in a park in Washington DC from which a series of type interrelated lines connect most of the important buildings to form a Pentastar, matching traditions of the Star family, the Egyptians, and the VHC (very high civilization) that taught them virtually overnight, possibly known as the “Watchers”. The early Sumerian texts talk of tall, god-like people who came to live among them whom they called the “Watchers”. They were taught new skills, then the Watchers would leave again. Ancient Jewish documents also make reference to them, and the dead sea scrolls also confirm an incident between a Watcher and a member of the community. In the Bible, the Book of Enoch makes reference to them. In the US, nothing much has been left to chance or heathens. As we go back through ancient civilizations there are many who have a single God reference, even though they are quite unrelated geographically. There also at least three common manifestations, a spirit which enters and leaves the human body, an afterlife, and Angels.

What about the Viracochas Bik?

From what I posted, it appears that the Davidian line of civilization which worshipped God was truncated when Saul/Paul defeated James, the younger brother of Jesus, who was head of the Jerusalem Church. Paul had no connection with Jesus, but built up a magical story around him, the Romans went with it and so there are worshipers of God before the Crucifixion and worshippers of God after the crucifixion, but they are not directly linked. Saul/Paul operated using the known and invented history of Jesus Christ, but had never known him. Now that may come as shock to many Christians, so it's worthwhile doing your own research based on all the facts which have come to light since 1947, and particularly over the last decade. I wouldn't bother attending a Roman Catholic Church because that was the one central to Saul's actions, however a number of Churches had already worked out the scam hundreds of years ago, and don't use an image of a crucified Christ etc. The way I see these is a bit like the company where you work, where the mission statement might be unobtainable, the advertising containing a lot of spin, and the instructions on the product a little less than satisfactory. However, you still work there, and you've been there for twenty years. So my answer to the first question is: I don't find the need to make a display of myself by attending Church, but I wouldn't say they are not worth attending because they are still the best places to get religious knowledge. With Paul's invention of the Roman Catholic Church so much has been altered from when Jesus Christ was alive that you would be better not to start there. With the Anglican Church, we know King James doctored the English Bible,and with 47 translators there will be 47 versions, some of his alterations could be corrections and others spin. Much the same goes for the other denominations. Aside from that you've got the thousands of years of Theological arguments,and that's among people who've been trained, and researched for years In general terms, the closer you get back to the years when Christ was alive, the more accurate will be the stories of witness, and eventually there will be some eyewitness statements. So my answer to the second question is the Church of Jerusalem Since it and all the contemporary Churches no longer exist, then the Jewish faith may in fact be the truest, hence, some deep thinking is required. A thousand years ago, doing your own research would likely involve wrestling with a hand written book a metre high by half a metre high and 100 mm thick, and you might have to look through hundreds of them and go to Europe for seven years t really get a good answer, but today we have authors who often hire 20 or so researchers, we have digital searches and we have this mass of discoveries of contemporary scrolls and tablets, and correlation coming from all parts of the world. So my preferred answers would be 1. Remodel current Churches based on new data available 2. Rewrite the Bible based on the truth as we know it today.

POST JESUS CHRIST These are non-contiguous cuts from The Hiram key to provide a very brief outline of what happened after Jesus Christ was crucified. a lot of supporting explanations and information has been left out so you will need to do your own research. The killing of “the king of the Jews” by a Roman Procurator created a lot of publicity, throughout Israel and beyond, people became interested in the messianic movement. One such person was a Roman citizen by the name of Saul who came from an area that is now southern Turkey. His parents had become Diaspora Jews and he was a young man who was brought up as a Jew but without the culture and attitudes of such pure followers of Yahweh as the Qumran Community. The idea that his job was to persecute Christians is an obvious nonsense as there was no such cult at that time. The Nasoreans, now led by James, were the most Jewish Jews it is possible to imagine and Saul’s task was simply to put down any remaining independence movement on behalf of the Romans. The Mandaeans of southern Iraq are Nasoreans who were driven out of Judah whose migration can be accurately dated to AD37; it therefore seems almost certain that the man that persecuted them was Saul (alias Paul) himself. Paul heard the story of the Nasoreans directly from the lips of James [the brother of Jesus], but being a foreign Jew and a Roman citizen he failed to understand the message that he was given and immediately developed a Hellenistic fascination for the story of Jesus’s death and his role of a ”sacrificial lamb”. It is certain that Paul was not admitted into the secrets of Qumran, because he spent only a short time there; as we know, it required three years of training and examination to become a brother. The relationship between the newcomer and James quickly became very strained. Paul had seventeen years of hunting down potentially rebellious Jews and he was never converted to the cause of John the Baptist, Jesus and James. Instead he invented a new cult to which he gave the Greek name “Christians”, as a translation of the Hebrew word messiah. He called Jesus, a man he never knew, “Christ”, and started to build a following around himself. Because Paul had no understanding of the terminology of the Nasoreans, he was the first person to apply “literalism” to the allegory in Jesus’s teachings and a miracle working god/man was created out of a Jewish patriot. He claimed that he had the support of Simon Peter, but this was just one of a whole framework of lies. Simon Peter issued a warning against any other authority but the Nasorean leadership: “Wherefore observe the greatest caution, that you believe no teacher, unless he brings from Jerusalem the testimonial of James, the Lord’s brother.” After reading Robert Eisenman’s interpretations of the Qumran texts we had no doubt about the identity of Paul as the “Spouter of Lies” who battled with James, the “Teacher of Righteousness”. We believe that the “Liar” and the enemy of James was Paul; the man who lied about his training as a Pharisee, lied about the mission of Christ, taught that the Law of the Jews was not important and admitted the uncircumcised. Ebionite writings confirm that Paul had no Pharisaic background or training. He came to Jerusalem as an adult, and became a henchman of the High Priest. When he was disappointed in his hopes of advancement, he split with the High Priest and founded his own new religion. Paul acknowledges that there were two opposed versions of the life and mission of Christ: the “false teachings of James. the brother of Christ; and his own Hellenistic mystery romance that disregarded the very core beliefs of Jerusalem. In 1 Corinthians, 9:20-25 he is not shy of admitting his disregard for the Jerusalem Church , and openly states that he is an unscrupulous liar: “I made myself a Jew to the Jews to win the Jews….To those who have no Law I was free of the Law myself…..I made myself all things to all men…..That is how I run intent on winning; that is how I fight, not beating the air.” This open disregard for the Law and a willingness to say and do anything to achieve his own strange ends shows why James and the Qumran Community called Paul the “Spouter of Lies”. In Romans 10:12 and elsewhere Paul announces his desire to found a community that would “make no distinction between Jew and Greek”. This is precisely the kind of ambition which characterised the Herodian family and their supporters. Paul went out of the way to legitimise the forces of occupation that had driven the branch of David out of Jerusalem and had murdered their king/messiah. He reasons, “You must obey the governing authorities. Since all government comes from God, the civil authorities are appointed by God. Paul’s Roman citizenship was clearly well earned. So after Jesus died there was a swerve away from the teachings of the Essenes, Qumranians, Nasoreans, Ebionites and the Church of Jerusalem as Saul/Paul who had never met Jesus invented the new "Christian" cult. Christians inserted new passages and whole books [in the Bible] and then had the audacity to accuse the Jews of having deleted these sections from their own scriptures. There is a very fundamental point here which cannot be ignored: nowhere in the Old Testament does it prophesy the coming of a world saviour. The Jews expected a leader to emerge who was an earthly king in the mould of David and, however much Christians would like it to be so, Jesus was not the Messiah of the line of David (the Christ), because he did not succeed in becoming the undisputed king of Israel. For the Jewish people of the time, including Jesus himself, there was no other meaning for the word; it is not a question of faith, it is a matter of history beyond theological debate. Interestingly, one of the most important documents not to come out of the Council of Nicaea was the “Donation of Constantine”. This was an eighth-century discovery which purported to be Constantine’s instruction that the Church of Rome should have absolute authority in secular affairs because St Peter, the successor to Jesus as leader of the Church, has passed such authority to the bishop of Rome. Tis is now universally accepted to be a poor forgery but despite this the Roman Catholic Church still clings to the rights that this bogus document conferred upon it. We should also mention at this point that the claim that Peter gave the keys of Heaven to the Pope is another deliberate falsehood, intended to sustain the claims of the Roman Church. It is clear from the Acts of the apostles and Letters of Paul that James, the younger brother of Jesus the Christ took the leadership role of the Jerusalem Church. >>>>>> Constantine himself never became a Christian. His mother, the Empress Helena certainly did. Helena wanted all of the holy sites to be identified and suitably marked with a church or other shrine, so she sent out teams of investigators who had instructions not to return until they had discovered every holy location and artefact from the burning bush of Moses to the True Cross itself. Christ’s tomb was duly found in Jerusalem beneath Jupiter’s temple and the site of the crucifixion identified a short distance away. The very spot where Mary Magdalene stood when she heard the good news of the resurrection was located and marked out with a star – all this three hundred years after the events had taken place and two hundred and fifty years after the Romans had destroyed the city. By a miraculous coincidence it was Helena herself who stumbled across the True Cross, complete with Pontius Pilatus’s “King of the Jews” plaque. Perhaps her servants were just a little too eager to please. >>>>> The Romanised Church destroyed any evidence that portrayed its saviour as a mortal rather than a god. In one of the greatest acts of vandalism the Christians burnt the library at Alexandria in Egypt to the ground because it contained so much information about the real Jerusalem Church. In doing so they destroyed the greatest collection of ancient texts the world has ever seen.

What goes on at your place is your business FH

Why would an atheist be taking any notice of the Bible?

In some countries that did happen, in others it didn't. The Roman Church particularly needed to rewrite history. Closer to you: 1427-1440 Codices of the peoples conquered by the Aztecs - by Itzcoatl 1652 Maya sacred books - by the Spanish Bishop of Yucatan 1585 Bernadino de Sahagun's manuscripts on Atzec Culture - by the Spanish Authorities and all the Atzec history village by village burnt on bonfires by the Spanish - they sure wanted to bury that Aztec heritage Are you aware of the Viracochas that arrived in South America and started preaching good things?

Some more key dates for the origins of the Bible: Dates 11th/10th Centuries BC – Oldest texts from the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) The Tanakh was developed over 1,000 years Some is written in Hebrew, some in Aramaic Oral Torah – Talmud in two versions – Jerusalem, Babylonian – written down 200 BC Claim that Moses memorised the whole while he was on the mountain. Revelation to Moses 1312 BC (or 1280 BC) Regular public reading of the Torah introduced c537 BC The Old Testament was translated into Greek in the third century BC (LXX). So we now have a selection of authors bracketing the the time of Jesus Christ, authors who may have been on the scene of some events rather than writing 1,000 years after it all happened, and an indication that the Old Testament existed in the time of Moses, and perhaps before.

That's the identical type of question I asked of the Big Bang theory, or what was before the beginning. Our current mind can't process this, but maybe could if we were trained - I gave the example of the New Guinea Cargo Cult to illustrate this. So that question is one all and neutralises both sides, but there are plenty more signs yet to be talked about.

Old Koreelah and Facthunter, this is for you, I know we always have thread drift , but slipping political hate into this discussion is more a reflection of you than the rest of us. To suggest that the President of the United States of America bypasses the 435 members of Congress and 100 members of the Senate and kills or "nukes" people is just sick. Similar suggestions from various people the the Prime Minister of Australia bypasses the 150 Members of Parliament and 76 Senators and takes unilateral action shows the degree of ignorance there can be of our Parliamentary system. To assume that the 761 people who are led by the two leaders are simple dummies with no intelligence drooling from the mount while the two leaders carry out an agenda of pillage and killing, doesn't belong in intelligent discussions. Perhaps this speech, the best I've heard in three decades might serve to show there is goodness in the world. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-05/pearson-a-salute-to-australias-greatest-white-elder/5868730

Ah, the red rag rides again. Can you give me a few examples of where and which Bush nuked people?

We've only got back 2000 years so far , we have to get back at least 60,000, including your lot.

OK sorry, I thought you were returning my words in reverse.

Well I don't know what you are talking about, but I agree totally with the last sentence.

This is what I wrote ,,,,,Since ancient civilizations on earth, apparently without the aid of aliens knew the earth was round, knew it's dimensions, ........

Bex asked a similar question earlier, and I just gave him a one liner because I had to rush out. I want to post more Christian era detail, and then I'll try to answer that one.

I thought from your last post this was all getting too much for you. How could you know about 80% of USA pelple believe the bible is the absolute word of God? I've worked with them for decades and goddam! is about as close as I've heard. I don't know how atheists think, but they sure say enough to make some judgements.

Clever twist Don, but it didn't work on me. Nor do I, but I'm p$ssing myself, that someone who recently told me the Bible wasn't credible is now playing on emotions relating to a non-credible story. I'll answer it; acceptance of Genocide has never appeared in my lessons, and I would never consider it, and if you don't know and haven't checked whether a battle ever took place or whether anyone was killed due to genocide, the question falls into the category of uninformed mischief. Who are these people? There are bigots and snobs in every town. Stay away from them Don. I referred to "ridiculously and transparently nonsensical translations" only to those translated sections which fit the picture and can't be supported by evidence. It was not a starting gun to destroy the whole Bible. Most of what you say is good, some of what you say is ridiculous. I don't judge the whole of what you say on the ridiculous statements - same goes for the Bible. Many many parts of the Bible are factual. Give me some more evidence of a massacre at Jericho and I'll be happy to comment. And by the way, please ton't pick on GG; he's been under siege for days from atheists who just can't leave it at not believing, but have to go to extraordinary lengths to try and condemn those who accept God for believing. I could have sworn that was the message I've been trying to get across for several days, and why I've given you the opportunity to go out and study older texts and examples like the Knights Templar, who by the way only used the word Christ in their title and didn't go straight to the chase of Solomon, because they otherwise would never have been allowed to excavate on Temple Mount, and who laid the foundations for an Abbey, yet built only the thin Roslyn Chapel which never was a Chapel but an exact replica of Solomon's Temple, and they did that because the "Christians" of their time would have executed them if they knew what they were really up to. The Templars never worshipped Jesus Christ, and to become a Freemason you have to believe in God, not Jesus Christ. There probably will be a mini series called Underbelly - Jimmy and the Pope; there was a lot of disagreement in those days. The Pope's men had been killing the English and Scottish, and King Phillip of France who ordered the execution of every Knight Templar on Friday 13th which we are still wary of today, was a Roman Catholic. Looks like you were wrong; I'm amazed how many questions and arguments on the Christian era have come up. There is nothing to stop you believing anything you choose and making any comparison you choose, or even proposing what God might have done to create the big bang. Maybe he just farted, and we're all going to cop it shortly. The part our minds have difficulty with are things like what actually caused the big bang, what was there before the matter that blew outwards? what's there now in it's place, what's out side of space? etc There are hints that some ancient civilizations got to know a little more than us, so my view is we are a little like the New Guinea natives who, after WW2 where they used to help unload DC3s with food and supplies for our army, built stick runways and stick aircraft decoys to lure the birds back. They couldn't understand it, but we, knowing the mechanics of what an aircraft was, did. I'm an enquirer, but not an Agnostic. I'm very comfortable with my God, and I'm not going to explain that; I think Mike might be the only one who understands that statement. I mentioned previously that someone who can't handle today's knowledge about evolution will have difficulty further down the track, and if you persist with legal standards of evidence the same thing applies. We are dealing with something our minds are just not trained to process at the present time. Dictionary definitions are: Atheist: One who denies the existence of God (s0 the big A's here have lived up to that in full voice) Agnostic: One who believes that God, the absolute, the infinite, the life hereafter, etc can neither be proved not disproved, and who accepts knowledge of material phenomena only. Gnostics: Followers of a religious sect in the early Christian era who had esoteric spiritual knowledge

Yes that's the same book. The other book is "Who built the moon?" so to begin with, let's not take the question mark off that book to imply it's something it's not. Some of these authors employ teams of researchers - Gavin Menzies (1431) has around 25 researchers, and that alone is turning up a lot of new evidence together with some red herrings, but that is what a questioning mind is for. I wasn't tempted to buy the book but from memory they found that dimensions on the moon matched ancient dimensions on earth and they hypothesise. Since ancient civilizations on earth, apparently without the aid of aliens knew the earth was round, knew it's dimensions, mapped the star system and probably what they could see of the moon, knew how precession worked, and for example, in the Maya's case could produce an accurate calendar over thousands of years (which by the way didn't predict the end of the world, just ended with the end of the world of Pisces much as today's calendar from the local service station may end with a helpful 2015 set of dates), without knowing what they are up to in the book, I would suspect the argument could equally be that some of the ancient measurements on earth built by man could have been designed based on moon measurements. Knight also collaborated on another book called Civilization One which discusses interesting sites in Great Britain, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard, Newgrange, Stonehenge etc. Incidentally we can forget visions of religious festivals around Stonehenge with nude figures wearing daisy chain head dresses, because a previously unknown sighting foundation was found a month or so ago, and this "monument" is a reasonably accurate instrument.

I'm not writing a thesis just to help atheists; my point is that when we know that early Bibles were altered and whole books removed and when that information was translated several times and then even later versions were printed it is not realistic to quote a chapter or verse and then say "see, God doesn't exist!" You're welcome to add Tyndale's or any other downstream tome to the list. What I am saying, is if we want to take some meaning out of the Bible we know these days that it will be worthwhile cross referencing with some of the older, purer texts. Doesn't mean it's all wrong, just watered down over many generations. They predate most of those Bibles so it's only reasonable they wouldn't know, or comment on something that didn't exist. That's what I've been saying, but people, including yourself have been quoting them verbatim to further the atheist argument. As for God requiring strict adherence to every letter, I would't expect an atheist to realise that's just BS. I'm a confirmed Anglican, and throughout the teaching I had, especially during the confirmation process the emphasis what on how to behave in society with only one of the less controversial stories from the Bible now and then, so don't upset yourself thinking we spend several hours a night going over and over what we are allowed to do and what we are not allowed to do. As I've mentioned several times, parts of the Bible are very accurate, and have been corroborated by contemporary sources, however, I'd agree it needs a rewrite to take out the political games and mis-translations.

Based on the information which has been coming out, I have some serious sh$t to consider.

You have a double problem if you want to be an atheist. You are part of what was one of the most advanced civilizations on earth, with an unparalleled method of managing bloodlines to prevent inbreeding, the ability to manage natural resources and some spiritual skills which Europeans have never attained, so you have to decide whether to walk away from that.

I've referred to this post because it is hilarious Don. In the same post you manage to disparage the Bible, but at the same time quote from it to support your argument. The point had already been raised that the King James Bible was not accurate due to translation errors, and of course earlier Bibles had been doctored to suit the flavour of the times. So there's no point in atheists plucking ridiculously and transparently nonsensical translations from later Bibles to try to make a case when there is more authentic information available in the original languages written closer to the contemporary times, particularly those of Jesus Christ This information clearly sums up how shaky it is to rely on the King James Bible if you want fact: King James Bible translation: 1604 – 1611 (Source Wikipedia) This was the third translation into English approved by the English Church authorities. The New Testament was translated from Greek The Old Testament was translated from Hebrew and Aramaic King James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy. The translation was done by 47 scholars. If atheists want something more contemporary and source-accurate to quote, here are some alternative sources: 3000 BC onwards – Egyptian hieroglyphics 300-100 BC – Dead Sea Scrolls written about 80 km from Jerusalem before and at the time of Christ 0-400 AD – Gnostic Gospels written 1008 AD - Oldest surviving text of Hebrew Bible 1120 AD - Scrolls found under Solomon’s Temple 1955 – Copper scroll

To make it easier to understand the sequence of some of the things we have been discussing, here's a timeline of some events. Atheists will be happy to know that science creeps in here with the carbon dating of the so-called "Shroud of Turin", so you can cross that one off your list. BC 28,000 First evidence of religious practice 12,000 Grindstones used for flour production 9,000 Animal husbandry developed in Mesopotamia 5,500 Irrigation systems used in Sumer 3,400 First walled cities in Egypt 3,250 Earliest known writing in Sumer 3,200 Secret Egyptian king-making ceremony 3,000 First Egyptian hieroglyphics 1500-1450 Most Probable period for the Exodus under Moses 972 Solomon builds temple to Yahweh on Temple Mount in Jerusalem 300 – 100 AD Dead Sea scrolls written, discovered at Qumran Caves between 1946 and 1956 and are still being translated. About 40% relate to the Hebrew Bible. 187 Earliest date for Qumran Community 6 Probable date of birth of Jesus AD 0 – 400 Gnostic Gospels written (discovered Nag Hamadi, Egypt 1947) 27 Jesus spend three years at Qumran 31 Jesus leaves Qumran, held to be king of Jews 32 John the Baptist beheaded; Jesus assumes priestly as well as kingly messiahships 33 Crucifixion of Jesus 37 Mandaeans driven out of Mesopotamia by Saul 60 Saul becomes Paul and invents Christianity 63 Probable date of confrontation between James and Paul 64 Killing of James the Just at the Temple 70 Destruction of Qumran, Jerusalem and Herod’s Temple by the Romans 325 Council of Nicaea established by Emperor Constantine 1008 Oldest surviving text of the Hebrew Bible June 14, 1099 Jerusalem was captured by the Crusaders 1118 Order of Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon founded 1120 Templars find hidden scrolls 1306 The arrest of all Jews in France 1292 Jacques de Maloy elected last Grand Master of the Templars Fri Oct 13, 1307 Knights Templar were attacked by King Phillip of France, some escaped to Scotland, Fleet escaped never seen again, signs they made it to America, others escaped and founded Switzerland 1307 Jacques de Maloy crucified and Shroud of Turin created 1308 Arrival of Templar fleet in America 1440-1490 Building of the Chapel of Roslyn near Edinburgh 1534 English split with Roman Catholic Church 1604-1611 King James Bible translation 1799 Rosetta stone found, enabling Egyptian hieroglyphics to be read 1945 Discovery of Nag Hammadi cache of Gnostic gospels 1947 Discovery of Dead Sea scrolls at Qumran near Jerusalem 1951 Excavation of Qumran starts 1955 The copper scroll opened and deciphered as an inventory of hidden treasures 1988 Carbon dating of Turin Shroud establishes its earliest possible origin to be 1260 1991 First public access to full collection of the Dead Sea scrolls Black: Source “The Hiram Key” Red: Other sources