Crazy laws.

[nomadpete]

Willie, do you happen to live in Crows Nest? We had a enthusiastic copper there a couple of years ago that allegedly wrote tickets for what you described. Unsecured loads probably wasn't originally intended to mean footwear.  But there was a booking for that. Another one was when  a person failed to secure their vehicle whilst they ducked into the newsagent to buy the paper (this is in a regional small town, unlocked car at the door of shop for a few seconds). Note that modern cars have immobilisers. However, in Qld the windows must not be open more than 50mm and the car must be locked.

 

Life just seems to get more complicated every day.

 

Whatever became of the concept of coppers being there to keep us from doing silly dangerous stuff?

 

 

[Marty_d]

Never, Marty. It just couldn't happen.

 

What Jerry is referring to might be in the new distracted driver laws, but I haven't checked them out yet. The government still has those big brother electronic propaganda sign towers on the highway north of Brisbane. They're very distracting as you have to take your eyes off the road to read them. The best I ever saw read " Distracted drivers are dangerous drivers". Only a public servant could possibly dream that sort of stuff up.

 

There are some strange laws though, like the unsecured load laws. A bloke in Toowoomba got a $300 fine for having a pair of thongs in the back of his ute, but was lucky as the police can levy a $300 fine per item if they wish. A friend of mine was told by a police officer that they can fine you $300 per leaf if you have a few leaves in the back of a ute. In the same area, another bloke thought he was doing the right thing and had a cargo net over the back of the trayback, but it was one of the ones with the larger mesh. If the police officer can physically remove any item from between the mesh squares, it's a fine. In this case, he pulled out four small items and wrote the driver up for $1,200. Same town, a lady copped $300 for having her handbag on the passenger seat.

 

There's some good local laws as well. Where I live, the council can levy a $150 on the spot fine if the neighbours complain about the smell of your cooking. I think it started with people living next door to Thais who used a lot of fish sauce. The crazy thing is, what's to stop them complaining about their neighbours cooking a steak. This sort of legal buffoonery is all funded by our taxes and rates.

 

 

 

What a joke.  Worse than I thought.  You would have thought the QLD police would have understood the need to upgrade their image after the whole Bjelke-Petersen era.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Qld still believes that anything more than three people walking down the road together, might constitute an a illegal gathering. As was the case during Joh's day.

 

Just like scomo now wants to implement, to stop anybody disagreeing with him about climate issues.

 

 

[willedoo]

 

What a joke.  Worse than I thought.  You would have thought the QLD police would have understood the need to upgrade their image after the whole Bjelke-Petersen era.

 

Most of them are pretty good these days; there's only the odd bad one. I think what happens is occasionally a cop gets transferred to a country posting and he doesn't like it so takes it out on everybody. I don't know why they do that. There's plenty of coppers who love being in country towns, so why not send them there.

 

 

[nomadpete]

In Toowoomba, my son got a caution from a lenient cop. Son had a cargo net over his ute tray. The copper said that in the event of an accident, things that fit through the net might become projectiles. So told him to put them instead, inside the cab on the seat, beside him.  And that is safer?

 

At least he let him off with a warning.

 

PS Willie, that's a good point. We always suspected that the Crows Nest copper was angry about being posted there

 

 

[willedoo]

They use that argument, but the crazy thing is that it's legal to have a 44 full of gear oil unrestrained in the trayback if it's inside a canopy. Nothing would hold that in a roll over.

 

 

[nomadpete]

I suspect that there might be a number of coppers out there who got into the career with the best of intentions, but now are disenchanted, and are taking it out on anyone who transgresses the letter of the law.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Willie, do you happen to live in Crows Nest? We had a enthusiastic copper there a couple of years ago that allegedly wrote tickets for what you described. Unsecured loads probably wasn't originally intended to mean footwear.  But there was a booking for that. Another one was when  a person failed to secure their vehicle whilst they ducked into the newsagent to buy the paper (this is in a regional small town, unlocked car at the door of shop for a few seconds). Note that modern cars have immobilisers. However, in Qld the windows must not be open more than 50mm and the car must be locked.

 

Life just seems to get more complicated every day.

 

Whatever became of the concept of coppers being there to keep us from doing silly dangerous stuff?

 

DIdi I read this post right? It is illegal to leave your car unlocked/unsecured? FFS ! I get it; it is to stop juvenile delinquents from nicking it and going for a joyride, but ship a brick... How about getting back to some decent communitiy values and thrashing them to an inch of their lives if they get caught... That'll learn 'em

 

Of course, I jest about thrashing them... just throwing them in boiling oils shoudl do it ?

 

 

[nomadpete]

The Qld 'car locking' law applies whenever the driver leaves the vehicle unattended. I've been told that 'unattended' means moving more than 3 metres from the car. But that was only hearsay. They bring in such laws without a formal process for notifying the motorists that there is a new law affecting them. Maybe their preferred model is by using infringement notices as the prime method of information distribution???

 

 

[willedoo]

Qld still believes that anything more than three people walking down the road together, might constitute an a illegal gathering. As was the case during Joh's day.

 

Pete, I might be wrong, but I think the three person thing might have been part of the move on laws. With one person, there's only quite specific reasons the police officer can use to order people to move on. I thought they had the power to move anybody on without reason, but not so.

 

I stayed a few years not far south of Crows Nest and the local town had a police officer who had a lot of issues. One night a 17 year old local lad was broken down in his car just out of town at night. A security guard on his way home knew him and his family, so he pulled up to wait with the lad until his father arrived to pick him up. Meanwhile, the local copper showed up and ordered the security guard to leave. The guard said he was waiting till the father arrived and after some heated words, the policeman punched the guard and knocked him to the ground. When that happened, out of curiosity, I checked the police powers and responsibilities act and it was not a lawful direction to order the guard to leave. There must be valid reason and those are clearly stated, eg: creating public disturbance, blocking shop doorways, endangering others etc.. If the cop can't satisfy one of those few criteria, it's not lawful to order someone to move on.

 

Just as a footnote, most Qld. police are very good, with only a very small percentage of bad eggs. The police officer in question had mental issues and would no longer be in the service. The last I heard of him, he was on indefinite stress leave pending investigations into a large amount of official complaints against him. The incident mentioned above was one of the mildest of his breaches of public trust. Luckily, nut cases in uniform like him are an extremely tiny percentage of even the tiny percentage of bad eggs. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but overall there are a lot of reasons to be proud of the Qld. police force. Even in the pre-Fitzgerald days, there were two distinct camps - the badged criminals in plain clothes and the majority percentage of good honest coppers.

 

 

[Bruce]

There are magistrates to match the crook police. My son challenged a speeding fine. The police person concerned was a punk-looking young woman who had no idea on how to work the radar gun. She used it on the slant and through some foliage and got the reading quite wrong.

 

When being questioned by my son, she started displaying her ignorance, so the magistrate called a recess during which time the police person was coached.

 

The magistrate was amazed that anybody would have the gall to question the police.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

The approach in the UK to road safety and speeding is quite different. It is not seens as the revenue raiser it is in Australia (or at least Victoria).  For example, there are warning signs all over the place about speed cameras and fixed spped cameras are very conscpicuous - free standing on a pole, large-ish box and painted yellow - and there are calibration lines on the road as well.

 

There are mobile cameras about but they are in large white vans and have the speed camera logo painted/stuck on them. They are harder to see though.

 

I know people here complain it has got worse, and there are some trouble spots where if you are caught doing over the limit expect to pay (£120 fine last time I did, with a £60 discount if you pay it within 28 days - or some such thing. I just checked and it has gone up to £100.

 

However, I can honestly say, I have passed many speeding vans doing well over the limit (c. 80mph) on a dual carriage A road (so 70mph limit) and not much traffic or other obvious dangers and have not had the fine in the mail. I once did 34mph in a 30 zone through a village is notorious with a blind spot. I couldn't argue it, but had the option to pay the same to attend a speed awareness course rather than cop the points and a road traffic conviction to delcare on the insurance. It was a good course and was basically a reminder of all the safety things we learned when we did our learners and licence.

 

I have been radar gunned doing at least 96mph (not kph) on the M4.. Limit is also 70. It was about 7am Christmas morning and apart from me and the copper on a mound on the side of the motorway (3 lanes each way at the time), there was no one else. I thought I am done (if I was in Victoria, I would have probably made the news. Never heard a thing. Another time, doing about 90 one weekday evening on an A road between Gloucester and the M4, I saw a motorcycle in the distance.. I thought "Nah.. no way that's a policeman".. but as I overtook it, the blue letters of POLICE were emblazoned on the side of what I recall was a ST Pan, but could have been a BM'er... I immediately took my foot off the accelerator and when he caught me up he simply waved me on. I figured it was to get me in his camera or something, but thought, hey... I did the crime... So I planted the foot and he didn't come after me,

 

I have been pulled over for minor breaches, but when the traffic and conditions were such that it was a hell of a lot more risky (of not to life) than the above. They always speak as if to remind and educate about why the law is there. In one case, I mentioned one of the above infractions and asked why they were OK with that, but not a, what I thought was skillful change of lane in realtively heavy conditions with lots of road spray.. His response - motorway and dual lane A roads are the safest things to do in driving (in the UK)... and that they are more concerned when someone is creating a real hazard..

 

As for all the other carp we spoke of above, they would pee themselves laughing at the idea. ANyone caught on a mobile phone (not hands free) can expect to be beaten up, though.

 

On the whole, they seem more about getting people moving safely rather than a dogmatic and adversarial approach the Aussie (well Victorian) police have (or had).. Having said that, being honest when I was pulled up for minor offences seemed to work, even with the "notorious" Traffic Operations Group of the Vic Police..

 

Also, it is not (yet) seen as a revenue raiser...

 

 

[nomadpete]

Willie, we must have crossed tracks a fair bit. I was living at Hampton.

 

And, I am obliged to acknowledge that most coppers are genuine, sensible, fair minded people doing a difficult Jun that most of us couldn't handle.

 

Jerry,

 

It would be nice to be treated the way you have experienced in UK, by road traffic police. Our fines seem more savage than yours, and the only times I've been booked, were instances where I broke the law (can't complain there - strict liability and Al that), but in circumstances where there was no risk to any person or property. So, no lesson learner and no impact on road safety. And the police concerned have no choice but to issue the infringement, and have quotas to fill as part of their job, so no personal grudge on my part.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Road laws here are strict liability as well.. .however, police exercise a lot of discretion in enforcing them.

 

It reminds me of a little event. In London, which is arguably far more busy on the roads than in Melbourne, it is impossible to walk the city without jaywalking as a) there are many intersections that are very busy but don't have the walk/don't walk signals on the traffic lights; b) when it is puring down with rain in the cosld of winter, no one is waiting for the walk sign.. All this despite drivers turnign left or right at these intersections not waiting for pedestrians  crossing the roads, as the law requires.

 

In 2004, I am working back in Melbourne and I go out of the office at lunch time to run an errand in a hurry. I wait for a coupel of seconds to cross Collins Street at the Collins Street/Exhibition Street intersection and decide, F! it.. I am not waiting for the walk sign (London habit kicked in) and proceed to jaywalk. A young policeman under supervsion (there were a few around and still with those white forewarm things they occasionally wears interrupts my walk and asks if I realised i was jaywalking. I said I did and he reminded me that is extrememly unsafe to jaywalk.

 

Having realised he is either just out of the cadet college or this is paart of his cadet training, I took it easy on him. I asked hom to look around the intersection - and got him to conform it is wide and has good visibility, Then I asked him to look down Exhibition street towards Flinders street where car paring is allowed in the moddle of the street; perpendicular to the flow of traffic... and tell me from a pedestrian perspective if I crossed the road, would I have as good visibility as I have at the intersection. He conceded visibility would not be as good and recoiled slightly as he worked out what I was going to say... which was, if I crossed at roughly half way betweern Collins Steet and the next street (think it is little COllins, bit could be Flinders Lane), I would be perfectly legal but a lot less safe as I don't have as good visibility and the drivers going along Exhibition street also don't. To his credit, he saw the folly of the application of the law and his supervisor (I never use superior as I often find the youger are far more superior than my generation) stepped in and whispered something to him.. after which the young fella said, something along the lines of "well, regardless, it is unsafe to Jaywalk and it is against the law... So please refrain from doing it in the future".. or some such stuff..

 

What I liked was that he wasn't trying to dogmatically defend what he was taught/trained but was prepared to listen.

 

 

[old man emu]

have quotas to fill as part of their job

 

Utter bull! I was NEVER directed to issue a certain number of infringement notices, or lay a certain number of charges.  At one time I was required to fill in an activity sheet as a management tool to show that I wasn't skiving off, but if I recorded on that sheet that I was doing office work, preparing for court, or doing other relevant duties, and did not issue any infringement notices on that day, there was no problem with my Sergeant.

 

Actually, most HWP don't issue as many infringement notices as they could if they put their minds to it. I regularly travel on a stretch of about 16 kms on the Hume Highway. If I was a traffic cop, I could "fill a book" in half a day with "Not Keep Left" and other lane discipline offences. As a matter of fact, I most often drive in the far left lane for that distance so I am not held up by heavy vehicles, doddering old guys, Asian women and Leaners under instruction dawdling along in the centre lanes.

 

I agree that the Fixed Penalties set by the Government (Treasury) are out of all proportion to the offences committed. I believe that every offence should carry Demerit points because Demerit Points are an equal penalty for the rich and the poor. Financial penalties weigh most heavily on the poor.

 

As for the way police interact with the Public, it is all a matter of how much respect the Public has for its police. There's too much Urban Myth stuff, such as even been posed here - "There was a bloke in Toowoomba who ..." without first hand proof. AND there is too much American anti-authority behaviour fed to us in TV and movies. That breeds an aggressive response in many sectors of Society. Since police don't know where a person they talk to sits on the respect spectrum, the initial response is to be defensive and prepared for confrontation.

 

If the Treasury kept its mitts out of Law Enforcement, then perhaps our traffic police would be seen as moderators of driver behaviour, rather than executioners of drivers.

 

 

[spacesailor]

REVENUER,S

 

Now driving Beamers. To catch us milking cattle.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Yenn]

Qld is far better than it was 20 years ago. They have got rid of the crooked magistrates and police. Now the police have a job to do and seem to do it well and courteously.

 

In the good old days it all depended upon who you met.

 

I was once driving over the limit in Ayr , no other traffic about when a cop stopped me, ticked me off and let me go. A couple of years later I was at a caravan park in Rocky nd this bloke said to me "You had the car repainted"

 

How could anyone know that? It was the copper from Ayr and he had remembered me.

 

Another copper stopped me while I was going slowly on the highway. Had a crook gearbox. He thought I was drunk and when I obviously wasn't he booked me for a dirty numberplate. When I said to him it was clean, he said shut up or I will find something else to book you for.

 

I am hoping that the second type of copper is gone.

 

 

[willedoo]

 There's too much Urban Myth stuff, such as even been posed here - "There was a bloke in Toowoomba who ..." without first hand proof.

 

It's not urban myth; I was living there and it's not the done thing to name names on a public forum like this. If you want forensic proof, you'll just have to trust me on it. The blitz they were having and the results of it were well known among locals.

 

 

[old man emu]

It's not urban myth

 

OK. But you have to admit that there are many stories about police/public interactions where the facts and the circulated story are like the start and end of a game of Chinese Whispers

 

 

[facthunter]

Unfortunately they are not all good. I know they do a difficult job, BUT.... I only know what's happened to me and I'm a pretty boring non criminal who generally tries to do the right thing.  OME, I agree with a lot you have written and I wish a few more thought like that.   Nev

 

 

[willedoo]

OK. But you have to admit that there are many stories about police/public interactions where the facts and the circulated story are like the start and end of a game of Chinese Whispers

 

Totally agree there; I've heard some good ones.

 

 

[spacesailor]

I got a couple of Queensland fines.

 

1. only PULLED YELLOW NUMBER PLATES OUT OF A CRAWLING TRAFFIC-JAM.

 

2, 5 KS OVER WHEN FOLLOWING A TAXI,. I then stopped & watched, the cop pushed the tripod mounted radar-gun forward while taking the next reading.

 

just revenuing 

 

spacesailor

 

 

[willedoo]

Willie, we must have crossed tracks a fair bit. I was living at Hampton.

 

Pete, I haven't lived up that way for about four years. My Mother's people were all from the Crow's Nest region, but the other side were all from west and south of the big town. Fourth generation Queenslander, but I'm over it; planning to pack a jumper and beanie and move down your way.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Whilst I was trying to illustrate the pressures that most coppers have to operate under (both from the biased public and their own management),  I can only report on my personal experience, and that of trusted first hand reports from close friends. Temper that with knowledge of relatives in the force and acquaintances in the force. Then I have a jaundiced view of 'justice' and the concept of 'protection of public', and fund raising, and how that plays out in the real world. And then I have a sympathy of the overarching framework imposed on the general police, and how difficult their lot is. 

 

I think it's not working out well for anyone.

 

 

[old man emu]

relatives in the force and acquaintances in the force

 

Have you ever noticed that your relatives and acquaintances, when in unfamiliar company, never say that they are police? If they do, have you ever noticed that the next thing the enquirer does is launch into a litany of stories about they, or someone they heard about, was given a ticket for some minor infraction o the rules? Having to deal with this type of person at every gathering makes police want to stay at home.

 

It's true that police have forgotten that it is their discretion to commence a prosecution (give out a ticket), but I wonder how effective in changing driver behaviour it is to try to instruct a driver on the side of the road that why what they did was wrong, and, in the words of John 8:11, "Go and sin no more"?