The Sunshine State

[robinsm]

Why don't majority of men  ensure that their fellow men don't rape and murder young women walking home as has happened all too often here. The fact is that criminal acts are perpetrated by criminals.  I don't assume that my chinese friend is a member of a drug triad and I don't believe the Italian down the road is part of the mafia although of course there is an exceedingly small chance that they could be.  In the end it is about relative risk. My assumption is that your perception risk is greater than mine. I try to stay rational.  

 

It all depends on which philosophy they believe in.   If you read the Karan, you will see the basis that they live by.   Its not a pretty story and espouses world domination, murder, racism etc etc on almost every page.   The pity is that the ideas have not been altered to suit modern times.   The beliefs are medieval, elitist, criminal, arrogant and mysoginistic in the extreme.   The attitud etoward women is abominable.  There are good and bad in all walks of life, but not many follow a missive that dictates the ideas of the Koran.   Read it then argue for it.

 

 

[octave]

It all depends on which philosophy they believe in.   If you read the Karan, you will see the basis that they live by.   Its not a pretty story and espouses world domination, murder, racism etc etc on almost every page.   The pity is that the ideas have not been altered to suit modern times.   The beliefs are medieval, elitist, criminal, arrogant and mysoginistic min the extreme.  Therre are good and bad in all walks of life, but not many follow a missive that dictates the ideas of the Koran.   Read it then argue for it.

 

Actually I have read some of it also I have read most of the bible, mainly in order to further my arguments against all religions. 

 

Deuteronomy 17

 

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

 

Deuteronomy 13:

 

 

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To use an example from my own life I have a colleague who is Iranian although she refers to herself as Persian. She holds a Doctorate in music is a concert pianist teacher and author. In her spare time she climbs mountains. The very reason she is here is because her family as so called intellectuals escaped from Iran.  Her birth certificate says muslim but this is automatic. She has no interest in changing our way of life or committing acts of violence and yet she is sometimes treated with suspicion by more paranoid folks.  My point is not about the people in the camps or levels of immigration it is about being rational.

 

 

[nomadpete]

My view of 'rational' is that your Bible quotes are accepted as being cruel and primitive, BUT, as far as I know, the Bible doesn't order all followers to change the laws of the land to align with ALL the so called 'word of god' laws in their 'good book'.

 

There is a difference.

 

And although followers of this newer belief (pledging loyalty to the 'word' multiple times daily) may be generally nice respectful individuals (the ones I have known, are) they have still sworn to follow the word as it is written, in ALL facets of life.  The fact that their book also contains numerous sensible and fair rules about being fair to non believers, and intolerance of corruption, etc,  is nice, and fortunately many Moslems follow that, but there is ample evidence that such is seldom the case in much of the real world.

 

I am against any large scale religious input to government, and here is a group that have that documented goal as part of their belief.

 

 

[Yenn]

The reason the bible doesn't tell followers to try to change the law of the land, is because the bible and its religious followers don't recognise any other law than that quoted in the bible.

 

If christians were as devout as the muslims appear to be, we would be back in the dark ages.

 

The whole lot of them don't appear to be able to work out what life is all about, they just let the priests tell them what is what.

 

The biggest muslim population in the world is Indonesia and it seems that the younger Indonesians are not too happy with what is being done y their government. They are beginning to look as if they may be becoming secular. What all religion needs is for people to use their brains and not blindly follow the religious zealots. 

 

 

[octave]

And although followers of this newer belief (pledging loyalty to the 'word' multiple times daily)

 

 

 

I don't think the majority of muslims do this.  I am not sure of the figures but I would also suspect the majority don't go to mosque or even read the Koran. My friend and colleague I mentioned is in every respect a modern western woman.  There are according to the last census 604 200 people who identify as muslim in Australia.  They do not all go to mosque or where funny clothing and they certainly don't all pray many times a day or even at all.   It is quite right to ensure that disaffected youths do not for into radical behaviours including the white supremacist nutjobs .

 

If 604200 Australian Muslims have it in for us they are not doing a particularly good job at it.   We of course need to be cautious who we let in the country but we must also avoid hysteria and paranoia because we know where that leads.

 

I am against any large scale religious input to government, and here is a group that have that documented goal as part of their belief

 

 

 

I don't see a great deal of evidence of that.  I don't believe I heard much during the same sex marriage debate although certainly I imagine conservative Muslims would have been against. I did see the Australian Christian Lobby trying to influence government and the inquiry into religious freedom etc.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...The biggest muslim population in the world is Indonesia and it seems that the younger Indonesians are not too happy with what is being done y their government. They are beginning to look as if they may be becoming secular...

 

If only this were true, Yenn. Unfortunately, Saudi-style ultra intolerance is spreading across Indonesia.

 

 

[willedoo]

https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/news/stunning-scenes-as-droughtaffected-town-flooded-with-donations-from-muslim-community/news-story/d40313090beca9755830e34ec5b44cbd

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Thanks for that Willy- A feel-good story amid the gloom. 

 

Despite my antipathy to the encroachment of Islam into western societies, I must also recognize the incredible generosity of people across islamic lands- which I have experienced. Although charity is a central tenet of Islam, they didn't invent it.

 

I suspect showing decency to strangers is hard wired into our DNA.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't think Martin Bryant or Ivan Milat were muslims, but they killed more people in Australia than any muslim has.

 

The fact here is that you should fear white men with guns far more than any religious minority.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I don't think Martin Bryant or Ivan Milat were muslims, but they killed more people in Australia than any muslim has.

 

The fact here is that you should fear white men with guns far more than any religious minority.

 

Marty that may be true,. But the never-ending disagreement we have is over what that religious minority's book tells them to do, and how this will pan out when that minority gets to the size of the minority in places like France.

 

 

[Yenn]

I wonder if the muslim ratbags learnt from the Christchurch murders. There seems to be a lessening in the religious atrocities we hear about since then.

 

Have they discovered that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander? I doubt it.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Geez Yenn. Look a bit further afield; the killing goes on. 

 

Tragic though it was, in the long history of religious violence, the Christchurch atrocity was only a small incident and is unlikely to make a lot of difference.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I don't think Martin Bryant or Ivan Milat were muslims, but they killed more people in Australia than any muslim has.

 

The fact here is that you should fear white men with guns far more than any religious minority.

 

False argument, there are individual pyschopaths everywhere around the world, in every country in every culture, including Muslims.

 

Nothing to do with the argument that some religions spur violence towards others who aren't followers of their religions.

 

 

[Marty_d]

False argument, there are individual pyschopaths everywhere around the world, in every country in every culture, including Muslims.

 

Nothing to do with the argument that some religions spur violence towards others who aren't followers of their religions.

 

...or towards those who have beliefs that are not state-sanctioned.

 

Without wanting you to get in trouble with the censors (so I'll deliberately miss-spell the name) - on the other side of the coin, what do you think about your adopted country's governments' actions against the wee grr population?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...Without wanting you to get in trouble with the censors (so I'll deliberately miss-spell the name) - on the other side of the coin, what do you think about your adopted country's governments' actions against the wee grr population?

 

Marty I would respectfully suggest we not go there. 

 

 

[Bruce]

I  believe that some groups are much  more lawless than others, and I have a big distrust of government figures which say otherwise.

 

You can test this out yourself. Go to Alice Springs and try to phone in a report of property theft.

 

Unless things have changed a lot, the police on the phone will ask whether indigenous people were involved. If the answer to that is yes, then they will tell you that there is nothing they can do.

 

So a lot of crime is treated as if it never happened. Much later, the claim is made that the statistics prove that indigenous crime is no more than that of any other group.

 

 

[willedoo]

So a lot of crime is treated as if it never happened. Much later, the claim is made that the statistics prove that indigenous crime is no more than that of any other group.

 

Recently there was an interesting guest speaker on the ABC radio talking about the problems with statistics. He was a statistician and one of the things he mentioned was the problems with correlating data. As an example, he said that statistically in New York the murder rate increases in line with an increase in ice cream consumption. Those two on their own shouldn't be seen to have a direct relationship, but there's a possibility they are both influenced by an increase in summer temperature. I think a lot of people trust statistics without knowing the methodology behind crunching the numbers.

 

The Alice Springs statistics would most likely only reflect that actual convictions are no more than any other group.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Marty I would respectfully suggest we not go there. 

 

While I'm happy to accommodate your wishes, I'd like to understand why?  

 

Not like it's a secret.  Australia, as well as many other countries, have made representations to China about this matter.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

All true, Marty but let’s not put our mate in China in a difficult position.

 

 

[Yenn]

Now we have fires in Qld. I know you have had them in NSW and Vic for many years and those are truly frightening, but Qld has only recently experienced bad fires which consume houses.

 

Most of our fires were grass fires and they could easily be controlled by back burning, or even better having fire breaks in position ll year round.

 

Now we have to get a permit to burn a fire break and it is not always available at the most opportune time.

 

Our recent fires all seem to have one common factor. they are adjacent to National Parks. The Prks don't have enough money allocated to be able to look after anything.

 

Now our premier is talking of buying a Boeing fire bomber for Qld. I just wonder what good that would be with it having to go to a big airport to pick up water each time and then have to fly it in rugged hilly country.

 

I think the premier is just trying to gain political kudos, by appearing to be looking after our welfare.

 

Pity she didn't do it earlier by having sensible fire regulations.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"The Parks don't have enough money allocated to be able to look after anything. "

 

BUT

 

The national parks are funded by the state, & they get Free land from the State Forest, as they S T aren't allowed to sell to the highest bidder.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

My wife just read of a Qld farmer fined $1 million for making firebreaks wider than allowed!

 

Surely this can't be true.

 

 

[old man emu]

 

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=farmer+fined+for+making+fire+break&rlz=1C1GGRV_enAU749AU749&oq=farme&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39j0l3j69i60.6084j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

 

[willedoo]

My wife just read of a Qld farmer fined $1 million for making firebreaks wider than allowed!

 

Surely this can't be true.

 

I see that it was two and a half years ago. I wonder how he went with his appeal.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Who decides how wide firebreaks should be? Should a rigid formula be imposed, or should lanholders be allowed some discretion? I'm all for sensible hazard reduction and know of a recent case where four farmers I went to school with put in days of work cleaning up miles of firebreaks to protect their land from a fire. In the end, their 200 years' worth of experience managing fires was overruled by a bureaucrat in a distant office and the fire is now out of control.