The Sunshine State

[Marty_d]

From Home Affairs website - https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/citizenship/become-a-citizen/by-descent

 

"Your parent was an Australian Citizen when you were born overseas"

 

 

You must

 

 

 

• have been born outside Australia
   
  
• ensure that the person you are claiming descent from was your parent at the time of your birth and was also an Australian citizen at the time of your birth
   
  
• be of good character if you are 18 years old or over when you apply
   
  

 

 

 

Note that the "good character" test does NOT apply to children.  How anyone could think that children of Australian citizens, whether born here or overseas, should be left to rot in war-torn hellholes astounds me.  These are KIDS people.  They didn't ask for this or deserve it.  

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

What this has to do with the Sunshine state, I am not sure.. But that is what is good about these forums - the conversations bends and melds with the current issues...

 

Anyway, I digress from the thread drift..

 

We have the same issue here in ol' blightly.. Shamima Begum being the most high profile case.. A 16 year old radicalised and married, I think one of hte more prevalent ISIS characters who was a Dutchman that converted to Islam...

 

There was an interview that was broadcast where she was virtually emotionless and apprently unprentant. Of course, many people cited this as non sorrow, etc. But, I work with an ex mental health nurse who said she showed the typcal signs of shock and PTSD. In anycase, Sajid David illegally withdrew her British citizenship. based on the fact her fatehr is Bangladeshi and she can, in theory, apply for Banglaedeshi citizienship.

 

As it turns out, the case is being appealed... As she is now technically stateless.

 

I take the points that she "wilfully" fled to Syria at 16.. However, she had suffered a maternal death and was alledgedly suffering metnal health issues as a result. She became radicalised before she went over. Let's not forget.. she was 16 at the time.. her frontal cortex was hardly properly developed to comprehend the gravity of what she had done - and she was grieving and under a mental health issue - and found solace in the wrong crowd. I do not equate what she did to free will. And I bet most of the young girls that went out there, possibly living suppressed if not oppressed lives had not had similar issues.

 

The other point to think about is... Yes, what they did was monstrous.. But, if they are our citizens, like it or not, they are a product of our country - and all of its foibles. And, they are our responsibility. As the FInancial Times (hardly a bleeding heart publication) put it.. todays orphans of ISIS are tomorrows enemies of us. If we bring them back, we can keep an eye on them and rehabilitate and maybe prevent further bloodshed.

 

I understand for Australia, which has a fraction of the radical based issues that the UK has, probably doesn't have as extensive a deradcialisation program has here. But if they are under our control, we can affect the outcome - leave them there and they will likely develop a hatred far deeper than a non-citizen.

 

I can see the argument as to why we should leave the to "rot".. but only their mindset rots.. and we become the target of that mindset.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Jerry even though I have a foot in the other camp, I find your logic and empathy compelling.

 

Legal issues aside, the best point you make is to avoid having another generation raised with hatred for us.

 

Whether they grow up here or in a squalid refugee camp may not make a lot of difference to their mindset.

 

It's hard to give these children of evil ar$eholes the benefit of the doubt, or to compare them to other people, but I will try.

 

My tiny hometown produced more than its share of diggers who fought in foreign wars. A couple who were captured in Crete survived the war and told of being marshalled into groups by a young German guard who spoke perfect Aussie, and used quite a bit of rough language on his former countrymen.

 

When challenged by the Aussie POWs, he told them about the humiliation and degradation his family had suffered during WWI, when anyone of German heritage was a target. He found it easy to answer Hitler's call.

 

I fear the same is true of so many of our Moslem youth. I don't have the answer, but it sure isn't to increase the Islamic proportion of our population until, like in so many other countries, they become a huge security problem.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Not just a "security problem" 

 

BUT 

 

A political one,  if enough moslems take to our voting system. 

 

Like Fiji.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[gareth lacey]

and my maternal grandmother died when i was 16 ,i lived with her it scarred me mentally for life (nah not really) get off the grass ,they can come up with all the supposed isms in the world, she like the aussie girls are TRAITORS, who cares if they are stateless let her go back to Bangla Desh, same as the aussie girls stay in your islamic shxxthole of a country ,thats what they wanted  we dont need to import that isis rubbish back here lets fix our problems here first and there are many ,before worrying about their supposed mental health, old Winston was right beware the Moslem hordes(he said that back in the twenties) and lets not forget most muslims say Muslim Australian,not Australian , do any Aussies you know say ,Im a Catholic,CofE,Hillsong,Baptist Australian no they are AUSTRALIAN,and there lies one of the biggest problems they dont see themselves as Aussies again i say ,swear allegiance to another country and you are a TRAITOR simple really 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

There is no easy answer - unchecked, our early cognitive development will be the formation of our thoughts, actions and reactions for the rest of our lives. However, there are ways to reform the cognitive functions of the brain - over time - sometimes months - sometimes years and sometimes never. But, your example of the German camp guard is reflective of the issue. I studied Aussie History at HSC and the treatment of German born and first gen Aussie Citizens in WWI (and II) was deplorable. However, it was, in a way, understandable borne by a fear that we look at today and concede was baseless. I put it to you, that, despite the events being perpetrated in the name of the quran, the fear we hold today about Muslims in general is - baseless. Think about it, Germans about 12,000 miles away - baddies wreaking untold trouble on our motherland (to put it in 1914 context); today a bunch of maddened bloodthirsty mongrels wreaking havoc on.. largely themselves... but because the world is much closer today, they can have a crack at those who interfere with their battles as well..

 

Of the problems facing Bouke street lately, only one of the madmen were proclaiming to be acting on behalf of Allah, and he was found not to have any connection to ISIS or others, and was mentally ill. I think it was the same for the Sydney cafe shooter as well - no actual connection to ISIS. ISIS are "cleverly" calling on lone wolves to react, in other words - we don't know who you are - we know you want to do some damage - do it in our name to give it some legitimacy...

 

Without having reasd the quran, I am going to take it on good faith (how ironic) that it allows Jihad when the religion is threatened or some such condition. That does not mean unlilateral violence is accepted. I also take the point that there couls be stronger and absolute condemnation of Muslims who perpetrate such violent acts from their own community; although I was listening to a BBC radio program where a senior cleric was absolute and resolute in his condemnation. But the average Muslim in the street is no more to fear than the average Aussie.

 

I think the process has to start with integration - that is not forcing people to abandon their religious expressions - and certainly not putting upunnecessary barriers that the citizenship test is (it is used to exclude rather than educate). It is about educating them about our way of life; out values and our tolerance and how they can still have their religious freedoms yet be Australian at the same time. It is also about us being educated about their values, what they have come from and how we can help them integrate.

 

I "work" for a practising Muslim - I am genuine in saying this - he is one of the nicer people I have ever met - he doesn't have a racist or prejudicial bone in his body. In fact, if he didn't let us know he as practicing, we would never even know. At the end of the day, they have different religious beliefs - some are fanatical - but there are still religious loonies in the US who kill in the name of Christianity.  At the end of the day - the non fanatical want the same as we all do.. peace, to smile, give their kids the best they can, health, etc, etc..

 

If we reject those that have gone, then the hatred will fester and spread and come back to bite us. At least if we bring them back, we have a chance of correcting it, but at the very least control it and for those people and their offspring - at least prevent an attack to Aussies I forgot to mention, there is absolute support in brining them back and trying them for any crimes and holding them accountable. IN Shamimia's case, there isn't certainty there is anything she can be charged with.. but at least you can bring them back to face a trial IF they have actually broken laws (the UK passed a law to make it an offence to join a foreigh terrorist organisation after she left - and as far as I know, it was not a retrospective law - of course, there is the possibility of treason, but as she didn't divulge any state secrets nor threatend or attack the country - nor did ISIS directly - then even that is a tough case to get through).

 

 

[spacesailor]

AND 

 

Of the peaceful people who came to Australia, (for a better life ),  they can live in the same fear of religion as the country they left. 

 

With bringing ANY terrorist here, born here or not.

 

Most migrants CHOSE Australia. SO DON,T CHANGE IT, to suit a people who chose a different culture, or religion. 

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Marty_d]

Your average muslim is probably safer to deal with than your average true blue Aussie bogan.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

There is no easy answer... I put it to you, that, despite the events being perpetrated in the name of the quran, the fear we hold today about Muslims in general is - baseless.

 

I totally agree about Moslems in general. What concerns me is their holy book contains instructions to do nasty things to non-believer- and too many young Moslems born and raised in this country have obliged.

 

I think the process has to start with integration..

 

We tried that.

 

It's worked pretty well for most immigrants, but many Moslems refuse to.

 

I "work" for a practising Muslim - I am genuine in saying this - he is one of the nicer people I have ever met - he doesn't have a racist or prejudicial bone in his body. In fact, if he didn't let us know he as practicing, we would never even know. At the end of the day, they have different religious beliefs - some are fanatical - but there are still religious loonies in the US who kill in the name of Christianity.  At the end of the day - the non fanatical want the same as we all do.. peace, to smile, give their kids the best they can, health, etc, etc..

 

I totally agree. I suspect a person's behaviour has more to do with their innate character than their religious background. Religion just seems to bring out the worst in some people.

 

...at least you can bring them back to face a trial...

 

 War Crimes Trials do not have an impressive history. How do you prove a crime when most of the witnesses have long since had their heads hacked off?

 

The post WWII trials of Japanese war criminals was more a political stunt than justice. Many of the worst monsters were spared and sometimes ordinary prison guards were executed, despite being defended by former POWs.

 

 

[facthunter]

The banks aren't run by Moslems .There's plenty of weird stuff in the Bible. Eat your own children, in Leviticus. Don't let your kids know you are studying the bible..  Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

Re : the debate about Moslem faith and potential problems that may possibly conflict with our national expectations of people.

 

We have grown up in a system where there is a separation between religion and governance (although that has been recently eroded slightly by Christian prayer recitation in parliament).

 

The Moslem faith is an all encompassing religion founded on three levels of application of the faith. The third level of application is governance according to the word of god (according to their scriptures).

 

And a duty of all Moslems to do all they can to implement this.

 

Personally I rather prefer to maintain a big separation between any religion and our governance.

 

If I could choose, I'd require all migrants to renounce that third religious obligation before allowing residency. Agreed, the majority of followers are nice, people who are respectful of all others, and don't necessarily pose a risk to our government or safety. But they all aspire to a documented obligation that governance (and law) of the country must obey their scripture book.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...We have grown up in a system where there is a separation between religion and governance (although that has been recently eroded slightly by Christian prayer recitation in parliament)...

 

Australian politics has recently been infected by American-based Bible-belt lobbyists. Their influence on our politicians has been as insidious and corrupt as any from the coal, junk food, gambling, alcohol, pharmaceutical or weapons lobbies.

 

Add big irrigators to that list.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Do those Bible Belt religious zealots, instruct their followers to kill.

 

Do they allow their follows to leave & become Moslem.

 

Do the Moslems allow their followers to become Christian.

 

I think I can live with ALL Christian zealots, without fear of even Stoneing for adultery.

 

Lots of  Chistian zealots come door knocking, to this day, I have not seen One Armed &ready to kill, like they do overseas.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

Do those Bible Belt religious zealots, instruct their followers to kill.

 

Do they allow their follows to leave & become Moslem.

 

Do the Moslems allow their followers to become Christian.

 

I think I can live with ALL Christian zealots, without fear of even Stoneing for adultery.

 

Lots of  Chistian zealots come door knocking, to this day, I have not seen One Armed &ready to kill, like they do overseas.

 

spacesailor

 

 

 

If the vast majority of Australian muslims wanted to do us in it would have happened by now.  We too easily fall for stereotypes. I would suggest that most Australian muslims don't  attend the local mosque just as most nominal christians don't attend church. My neighbours (until recently) were lovely people and to my knowledge did not attend mosque. She wore a scarf although often would not be wearing it. He started fasting for ramadan but stopped because he came down with the flu so obviously not too committed. As far as I can see they were only muslim to the degree that many would say they were christian. I understand that you personally may fear and loathe them but I think it is misplaced. Personally I fear radicalism where ever it comes from.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

 

If the vast majority of Australian muslims wanted to do us in it would have happened by now...

 

Excellent point, Octave. I suspect that vast majority you speak of aren't much different to you or I.

 

I doubt any conscientious Moslem can find their religious obligations compatible with living in a modern liberal society. Full credit to the vast majority who try.

 

The perennial problem is that a tiny minority, usually locally-born children of immigrants, can be easily radicalised.

 

Why? The normal adventurist streak of youth, alienation in their own country are big factors, but I blame the colossal arrogance written into their holy book.

 

In much of the world you are risking your life to question the words of a fickle, barbaric, medieval paedophile.

 

 

[octave]

The perennial problem is that a tiny minority, usually locally-born children of immigrants, can be easily radicalised.

 

 

 

I do take that point and I also understand that you are not necessarily making broad judgements although some do.  The argument often goes like this, a tiny number may want to do us harm and the vast majority do not. I can't know which are the tiny majority so I am entitled to treat the whole pool of people as being potentially dangerous.  The trouble is that this principle applied to other things may be troublesome.  A feminist once said to me that men are rapists, I of course said I am not, she replied that whilst that may be true she could not tell which men were potential rapists and which were not. This of course is true but a society that slides into thinking that there are genders, races, religions (and I say this as an atheist) or any other group, could end up on a slippery slope to bad things.  The notion that we can predict behaviour of an individual from some wider generalization that may even be partially true risks possibly punishing the innocent whilst failing to detect the  people with malicious intent.  Jails are full of people with poor levels of education but this tells me nothing about the neighbour who is inarticulate or poorly educated.

 

The issue of the people overseas now is very tricky and to me at least not black and white.

 

 

[Bruce]

I too have met lovely moslems. But this does not mean that statistics doesn't operate in a population.

 

Those same lovely moslems could have a son who becomes a radical. And yes christians can do likewise.

 

I reckon the chances are higher with the moslem kid because the religion is more coherent than christianity.

 

Personally, I would use deportation much more against any immigrants who did religious  violence here. That would include mutilation of their girls.

 

 

[Methusala]

Lots of  Chistian zealots come door knocking, to this day, I have not seen One Armed &ready to kill, like they do overseas.

 

Come on Spacey! Even from you this is a bit of a stretch. How many gunmen, quoting verse from the Qoran have you had on your door step FFS!

 

 

[Methusala]

I reckon the chances are higher with the moslem kid because the religion is more coherent than christianity.

 

I have heard of many instances of Aussie families, wrecked by a single son (or daughter) overcome with drug problems, leaving them living in enormous fear of their lives. The media ramp up fear because a fearful population is easily controlled. There have been over 75 separate pieces of "anti terror" legislation passed since 11th November. 2002. These are responsible for our individual freedoms ( even to the extent of fencing off the lawns over PH in Canberra) being strictly curtailed. Where is the greatest threat to our freedoms originating? From our "democratic" overlords.

 

 

[old man emu]

 

  A feminist once said to me that men are rapists, I of course said I am not, she replied that whilst that may be true she could not tell which men were potential rapists and which were not.

 

What if you told a feminist that you believed that all women were prostitutes because all hetero women use their sexual attributes to secure what they need for their own survival and that of their offspring?

 

"Prostitute" is a word with strong connotations and would raise the hackles of any woman, as does "rapist" for men.  But you cannot deny that the offer of sexual favours in exchange is an innate behaviour of the higher primates.

 

 

[octave]

What if you told a feminist that you believed that all women were prostitutes because all hetero women use their sexual attributes to secure what they need for their own survival and that of their offspring?

 

 

 

Well of course I would not say that because this is not my experience in my personal life and I would not for the reasons I explained, to extrapolate from the behavior of a few to the a group as a whole is really is not my style.  I try to take people as I find them I my assumption is the you probably do too.

 

 

[nomadpete]

"the offer of sexual favours in exchange is an innate behaviour of the higher primates. "

 

I would say, ALL primates, including those who consider themself 'higher'.

 

 

[robinsm]

 

I do take that point and I also understand that you are not necessarily making broad judgements although some do.  The argument often goes like this, a tiny number may want to do us harm and the vast majority do not. I can't know which are the tiny majority so I am entitled to treat the whole pool of people as being potentially dangerous.  The trouble is that this principle applied to other things may be troublesome.  A feminist once said to me that men are rapists, I of course said I am not, she replied that whilst that may be true she could not tell which men were potential rapists and which were not. This of course is true but a society that slides into thinking that there are genders, races, religions (and I say this as an atheist) or any other group, could end up on a slippery slope to bad things.  The notion that we can predict behaviour of an individual from some wider generalization that may even be partially true risks possibly punishing the innocent whilst failing to detect the  people with malicious intent.  Jails are full of people with poor levels of education but this tells me nothing about the neighbour who is inarticulate or poorly educated.

 

The issue of the people overseas now is very tricky and to me at least not black and white.

 

So the massive attrocities in the middle east, involving country populations is trhe actions of a minority in respose to the teachings of a book by a desert dwelling, paedophilic, drug taking  slave trader.  OK, terrorism, drug trade gangs and selling, shooting on the streets of sydney etc etc is the actions of a minority so why do the majority not take action to clean these crimes etc up.

 

 

[octave]

So the massive attrocities in the middle east, involving country populations is trhe actions of a minority in respose to the teachings of a book by a desert dwelling, paedophilic, drug taking  slave trader.  OK, terrorism, drug trade gangs and selling, shooting on the streets of sydney etc etc is the actions of a minority so why do the majority not take action to clean these crimes etc up.

 

Why don't majority of men  ensure that their fellow men don't rape and murder young women walking home as has happened all too often here. The fact is that criminal acts are perpetrated by criminals.  I don't assume that my chinese friend is a member of a drug triad and I don't believe the Italian down the road is part of the mafia although of course there is an exceedingly small chance that they could be.  In the end it is about relative risk. My assumption is that your perception risk is greater than mine. I try to stay rational.  

 

 

[nomadpete]

My point was, that ALL individuals who are "Moslem faith", have vowed to follow the word of Allah(god), as it is written in their quoran. That includes attempting to bring law reform in line with 1500 year old religious doctrine.  I acknowledge that many don't seem interested in following certain bits of it, just like many who call themselves 'christian' don't practice much of their guide book (bible) even though it was literally the unchallenged "word of god" for centuries. But, so far, there is only one religion that asks ALL followers to accept, and  actually influence government of a country to follow the laws as written in their guide book.

 

In our past we have known some Christian churches to weave political influence in elections here, and fortunately I feel it has reduced, and anyway was not trying to invoke significant changes to our culture or bring antiquated religious laws to us.