Climbing Uluru

[octave]

I again googled " percentage of aborigines on welfare NT" and saw the 86% figure. Personally, I was surprised it wasn't higher. Then I thought about the government jobs reserved for aborigines. 

 

Aside from artists, actors and footballers, I personally don't know of any aborigine productively employed without government help. There must be a few. But I reckon the 86% errs on the side of assigning more real jobs than is the case.

 

As an aside, this guy I know had a contract to teach aboriginal trainees how to drive earthmoving machinery at a NT mine. The guy was actually part-aborigine himself. Well he failed all the trainees and will never be asked back.

 

I still can't find it. Why is it not possible to post a link?    Does 86% include aged pensions? Family payments?   

 

I did have an idea that your original post had little to do with  the rock.

 

What you are saying is that 86% are on welfare (although this remains to be confirmed)  and of the remaining ones are obviously doing created unnecessary jobs or jobs given to them.

 

Also according to a mate of yours they are so thick they cant be taught to drive a excavator.

 

Is that a fair summary?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Methinks it's time the subjects of these discussions had their say; a right of reply.

 

In their absence, let me refer everyone to the book "Why warriors lay down and die".

 

https://www.whywarriors.com.au/services/why-warriors-lie-down-and-die/

 

It outlines the incredibly stupid mismanagement of indigenous communities by distant white authorities. The impact of this on many aboriginal people who made great efforts to understand us balanda and to fit into our system. I was amazed to find that generations of indigenous tradesman were trained and employed building, maintaining and operating much of the infrastructure in isolated communities. Then distant bureaucrats decided they took too many "holidays" to attend family business, and brought in overpaid outsiders to replace them. 

 

I was one.

 

 

[willedoo]

What you are saying is that 86% are on welfare (although this remains to be confirmed)  and of the remaining ones are obviously doing created unnecessary jobs or jobs given to them.

 

This is actually what Bruce said -'Aside from artists, actors and footballers, I personally don't know of any aborigine productively employed without government help.' Meaning he doesn't personally know of any himself. It depends on what circles you get around in. I know lots of aboriginal people productively employed outside of the government sphere. But a lot of that's directly related to the type of work I used to do. They're out there in a lot of industries.

 

Note that I'm referring to aboriginal people in general. There's a possibility Bruce might be referring only to full blood community living aboriginals.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... I know lots of aboriginal people productively employed outside of the government sphere. But a lot of that's directly related to the type of work I used to do. They're out there in a lot of industries...

 

Too plurry right, Willedoo! I've spent most of my life near indigenous communities and they sure have plenty of problems. They could also teach white fellas a thing or two. 

 

Among the aboriginal students I've taught, lots work in the "aboriginal industry" as teachers aids, counsellors, etc., but many have done well in the white fella's world: a doctor, a couple of lawyers, accountants, several teachers including a school principal and some who run their own businesses. One employs a dozen or so, including non-aboriginals in his building outfit. 

 

 

[Yenn]

I don't know about the NT population, but there are untold numbers of aboriginals working in NSW, Qld. Vic and SA.

 

I worked with them in the 70s 80s and 90s and they were good workers. I was in the construction industry and the only problem I ever had with them, was that sometimes they would take a few days off, without telling me. Reason being they were being bludged on by the rest of their family and wanted a break.

 

Of course a lot of those aborigines would not appear to be anything more than well sunburned, because they integrated perfectly well with their non abo work mates and also their communities.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...sometimes they would take a few days off, without telling me. Reason being they were being bludged on by the rest of their family and wanted a break...

 

A perennial problem, Yenn.

 

In Arnhem Land people have rels all over the place, so they're expected to attend family business in widely distributed communities. This plays havok with white-fella schedules and timetables.

 

Because these communities use different languages, most kids speak at least three and I've met adults who regularly spoke ten. Some long-term balanda residents spoke one or two local languages, but could often pick a person's home community by their accent. 

 

Interestingly, their sign language is pretty much universal.

 

 

[Bruce]

I'm pleased to be wrong about aborigines having real jobs. Yep I must have moved in the wrong circles, and yes I was referring to black or nearly black people. ( the correct term is "full blood ").  I have relatives who could play the aboriginal card but none of them look black and they don't take my advice about using their small bit of aboriginal background for benefits.

 

I just saw an "aboriginal spokesman" on the news and he didn't look black to me .  I guess these people are part of the statistics which are against me.

 

 

[Bruce]

Octave, your criticism of my position is too accurate and sharp to deny. I didn't wish to be seen as that harsh.

 

But I do think that, far from being too dumb to drive earthmoving machinery, they were more likely just having an easy time and not working too hard.

 

I have a daydream about a politically-correct person about to undergo surgery. The newly-appointed aboriginal surgeon thanks them for their "affirmative action" which enabled him to get this job. Would you be that person?

 

 

[willedoo]

 Some long-term balanda residents spoke one or two local languages, but could often pick a person's home community by their accent. 

 

I remember the first time I heard an Aboriginal use the word balanda. They were interviewing an old girl from Arnhem Land who was speaking in her own lingo and I was surprised to hear the odd Indonesian word thrown in. It was before I'd heard the history about the Macassans in that region.

 

 

[octave]

The newly-appointed aboriginal surgeon thanks them for their "affirmative action" which enabled him to get this job. Would you be that person?

 

 

 

I would be happy to have surgery performed by any suitably qualified surgeon.  I am happy to fly in a commercial aircraft piloted by a suitably qualified pilot regardless of gender or ethnicity.    I don't believe that medical degrees are being handed out to people who have not attained a suitable level of competence, I don't see any evidence of this.  I believe there are approximately 400 indigenous doctors and I would imagine that if they were not competent this would be showing up in statistics regarding adverse outcomes.

 

I was looking through some old photos today taken during my RAAF basic recruit course in 1979. There was a course corporal named Thompson, he used to frighten the life out of me.  This fellow was well known in the RAAF an aboriginal with a handlebar moustache which was meticulously waxed.  Extremely well respected and later in my time in the RAAF when we met on more equal terms I discovered an amazingly funny raconteur.  The fact is that the most important attribute of the guy his character. 

 

I read today that there are 1600 indigenous members of the ADF and as far as I know there is nothing to suggest that their performance does not meet the required standards.

 

By the way the first indigenous surgeon in Australia was Kelvin Kong in 2006 now Associate Professor at John Hunter Hospital.  I would not be anxious if he was my surgeon.

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/my-australia-the-country-s-first-indigenous-surgeon-on-confronting-inequality

 

 

[Litespeed]

Sometimes the comments really show how far we have yet to evolve to a acceptable state of humanity.

 

It amazes me  the ignorance and paternalistic attitude some display. I could write a  treatise like war and peace, but no peace will be found when they refuse to open their eyes.

 

 

[Methusala]

How many of us think it would be ok to take a walk up Dunrossil Drive. to take a $h1t on the land around Yaralumla? How about Kirribilli House? Good view from there I reckon Cuz. I think that if you wouldn't like me climbing your roof to "'av a bit of a look around", why would you want the people who live in central Australia to put up with us?

 

 

[Geoff13]

Sometimes the comments really show how far we have yet to evolve to a acceptable state of humanity.

 

It amazes me  the ignorance and paternalistic attitude some display. I could write a  treatise like war and peace, but no peace will be found when they refuse to open their eyes.

 

So true and so disappointing.  

The world would be a far better place if instead of looking down at people, we could sit down and talk with them.

 

And I did mean talk ‘with them’ not ‘to them’ or even worse ‘at them’.

 

We have forgotten in our modern day how to talk with people.

 

Worse still we have either forgotten or never learned how to listen to people.

 

Speaking is pointless without Listening.

 

i find it very disappointing when I see supposedly enlightened and well educated people who have no concept of humility. 

 

 

[Bruce]

I just googled up " first indigenous doctor australia" and she was a blonde woman!

 

I reckon we are misunderstanding each other here. There are "legal " indigenous like this doctor, and there are the real aboriginals like I knew from Alice Springs.

 

I have to say though that Nev is right in that there are good aspects of their culture, but to be accurate, there are bad aspects too.

 

My observation is that individuals are under no pressure to get a job. This is both good and bad at the same time.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I remember the first time I heard an Aboriginal use the word balanda. They were interviewing an old girl from Arnhem Land who was speaking in her own lingo and I was surprised to hear the odd Indonesian word thrown in. It was before I'd heard the history about the Macassans in that region.

 

There were centuries of contact and trade between Indigenous Australia and our northern neighbours. The Macassans had quite an influence and their trade goods have been traced thousands of km into our continent.

 

 When Yolngu people encountered white fella's they called them balanda, a corruption of the Macassan word Hollander.

 

Quite a few native Australians regularly travelled to what is now Indonesia until the white government banned the trade in about 1906. Some were stranded there and their descendants still talk about their relatives in the north.

 

 

[Yenn]

Now that they have the ability to tell us what we should not do on their land, they say they now want a voice in parliament and also that they want to be heard.

 

As far as I know we all have the same voice in parliament, that is all we get from voting and talking to our member of parliament.

 

I don't know what they want to tell us, that they haven't ever had a chance to say before. Maybe they want the power of veto over what parliament does. I wouldn't mind that power myself, or at least a veto over what individual ministers do without any mandate.

 

I cannot understand why if they had land rights, they were unable to stop us climbing the rock years ago, unless of course their land rights are similar to those in Qld, where they are controlled by the government.

 

 

[willedoo]

I think there's two different things. Native Title land rights give the traditional owners access to the land but they must co-exist with pastoral and mining lease holders. A lot of land in the Territory has been granted back to the traditional owners as unalienable freehold, meaning they own it exclusively, but can't sell it. I think when the rock was handed back to the owners, it was leased back to the government and part of that lease fee was % of the take. From what I gather, it was the older people who didn't like the rock being climbed, and it was still allowed but discouraged.

 

 

[Bruce]

Willedoo, that is news to me about pastoral leases and native title coexisting. 

 

Do you know who gets what from the rock income? I thought the native title holders got all of it, well they have to pay whitefellers to run the place, but whats left over is their profit I always thought.

 

There are businesses in Alice Springs which are owned by the Central Lands Council, but you would never know by looking at the managers and staff. It appeared to me that the Central Lands Council doesn't really think that  indigenous-looking  people are up to managing medium-sized businesses. 

 

 

[octave]

Do you know who gets what from the rock income?

 

 

 

Under the original agreement they get 25% under a new deal 37.5%

 

"Traditional owners receive 25% of gate takings and each year they allocate some of their rent income to community development projects. In 2018, the project created employment for 79 locals across the region. There has been investment in education, aged care, dialysis and sports. At Mutitjulu the rent income has built a much-loved public pool."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/26/new-dawn-for-uluru-as-climb-closure-ends-decades-of-disrespect

 

Under the original ownership agreement, 25 percent of the takings from park entrance fees of $25 go back to the traditional owners.

 

The new deal will allow $750,000, or 37.5 percent of the total $2 million collected each year, to be allocated for projects in the indigenous communities living near the base of the iconic rock landmark.

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/uluru-tourist-fee-funding

 

 

[spacesailor]

The Budgies are eating fly,s.

 

On the top of the Rock it,s fly free, with veiws you'd need an untralight to get.

 

So they get $750,000. For living under the rocks shadow. & unemployment as well as all the other government handouts ?.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

The Budgies are eating fly,s.

 

On the top of the Rock it,s fly free, with veiws you'd need an untralight to get.

 

So they get $750,000. For living under the rocks shadow. & unemployment as well as all the other government handouts ?.

 

spacesailor

 

 

 

Clearly you did not read the article

 

The Uluru family tours venture is partly funded by their share of the income received from the operation of the park. Traditional owners receive 25% of gate takings and each year they allocate some of their rent income to community development projects. In 2018, the project created employment for 79 locals across the region. There has been investment in education, aged care, dialysis and sports. At Mutitjulu the rent income has built a much-loved public pool.

 

 

[spacesailor]

I read  37.5%.  Of $2 million.

 

Allowing $ 750,000.

 

Going to  the community.  Those unemployed in that community will get unemployment.

 

Am I wrong? .

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

I read  37.5%.  Of $2 million.

 

Allowing $ 750,000.

 

Going to  the community.  Those unemployed in that community will get unemployment.

 

Am I wrong? .

 

spacesailor

 

 

 

It says this money has created 79 jobs.

 

Also this money has gone towards education, health aged care and dialysis.

 

Why do you see this as a negative outcome? 

 

 

[willedoo]

There were centuries of contact and trade between Indigenous Australia and our northern neighbours. The Macassans had quite an influence and their trade goods have been traced thousands of km into our continent.

 

 When Yolngu people encountered white fella's they called them balanda, a corruption of the Macassan word Hollander.

 

Quite a few native Australians regularly travelled to what is now Indonesia until the white government banned the trade in about 1906. Some were stranded there and their descendants still talk about their relatives in the north.

 

I remember the term Balanda with Indonesian speaking people. I have an idea that in Bahasa it might officially refer to the Dutch, but I have a memory of Indonesians using it to refer to any white European people. In that context it might be used in a slang type of way. I also remember reading somewhere that some Macassans were based semi permanently at the top end and had Aboriginal wives.

 

 

[Methusala]

The olde England scene was feudal and the landlord extracted produce from the Peons. A form of slavery no less.

 

We who have been conditioned to fear socialism (via union and welfare bashing) are blind to the "elephant in the room". Slavery, a practice that we all thought so abhorrent, has reared its ugly head. Not only through young women secretly imported for sex slavery, but in the form of the gig economy and Newstart dependent older workers and disabled no longer able to get meaningful employment. Feudalism is the new direction that the powerful have set for our kids and grandchildren.