Banning all guns from Yuendumu

[Bruce]

There was a great idea from aboriginal elders at Yuendumu: Ban ALL guns from the place including police guns.

 

Personally, I remember the more civilized days of my youth when the police didn't carry guns.

 

I hate how those guns make them swagger as they walk.

 

I guess I would allow some locked up guns in a safe at the police station, to be released only by high authority.

 

The govt reaction to this idea will show their true feelings on the police shooting in a way that punishing the officer concerned will not.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Have you ever been to Yuendumu?

 

I have. Twice. Neither time did I feel safe enough to get out of the car.

 

 

[Bruce]

Been there lots nomadpete. First time in the 1950's. The last time about ten years ago  to connect their classrooms with optical fiber for computer networking.  And I have used Yuendumu from the air as a turnpoint when flying gliders from Bond Springs.

 

I never felt unsafe there, or at any aboriginal settlement. Yuendumu is probably safer than some, since  it is a dry community. Once we were stopped at 2 police roadblocks because they were having a football carnival and visitors were expected. The roadblocks were there to stop grog getting in.

 

On my first visit, I was a kid and the locals let me come on a kangaroo-shooting expedition. I remember thinking that by using guns and a flat-top truck they were not being traditional at all, but I kept my mouth shut. That night we all ( mainly aborigines ) sat around the roasting-fire drinking sweet tea. I liked it.

 

It would be a great place to trial a "no guns " policy. There is nothing there worth stealing.

 

 

[Bruce]

Your feelings of danger do help explain that police person's actions though. I reckon he was scared and  he panicked and did the shooting. I feel sorry for him too.

 

 

[willedoo]

I remember once talking to some people near Rabbit Flat who were on the road heading east. I'd assumed they were from Balgo and they had full length spears tied to the tie rail on the Toyota tray. At the time I guessed they were for back up if the rifle ran out of bullets and would be second preference for hunting. Also possible they were on their way to a ceremony that needed spears.

 

Makes you wonder how much spear hunting they would need to do to stay proficient enough to actually hit a live target. I remember on Bililuna the men would just shoot a beast at mustering times and live on that till they moved to the next set of yards and did the same. The women still hunted snakes, lizards etc. and gathered bush tucker on a daily basis. I think they kept the men healthy.

 

 

[old man emu]

Without any knowledge on my part of the full facts of the incident which lead to the shooting, and definitely NOT wanting to engage in that discussion, it is my opinion that the Constable has been charged with Murder as a way to pour oil on troubled waters. Remember, that just because he has been charged, does not immediately imply that he is guilty. By charging him, the authorities have quashed any further discussion outside the courtroom, and opened the door to a full presentation of the facts in public in a controlled environment. It has also removed him from that community thereby preventing lynch-mob violence, which would turn this into a social disaster.

 

 

[Bruce]

I agree OME. That policeman has had his life ruined. The government is in damage control mode and it is all sad. I say again that it would never have happened if the police didn't carry guns,  at least at Yuendumu. I bet that they ( the guns ) never were a useful accessory to be worn there.

 

They didn't wear guns  in SA until the president of the police union pushed hard for them. That guy was in reality a cop as well as  a drug-dealing criminal and he subsequently spent many years in Mount Gambier jail.

 

I hate it that they carry guns.

 

 

[old man emu]

As a retired Constable, I am appalled at the number of police shootings in recent years. As I see it, General Duties police (street cops) of today have very poor training in the skills of dealing with people whose inhibitions have been reduced by mental health issues or drugs and alcohol. There is too much pressure to speedily control a situation, and this leads to an escalation of force. In most cases, a situation could be subdued if the Constables took their time and used their mouths instead of their Mausers.  Which is better, spending 30 minutes talking a person back to reasonable behaviour, or 30 months going through the trauma of various internal, external and judicial inquiries?

 

Our police on the streets are members of a society that has been infected with the American "Shoot first, question later" mentality, and the rest of that poisonous American culture. Is it any wonder that they, too, so quickly escalate things to deadly force?

 

 

[Bruce]

I was proud of a sister-in-law who was a cop in Darwin when she defused a situation where a guy was stopping 3 lanes of traffic by hopping in front of a car if it tried to move.

 

When the police came, he explained that he was "gunna show that bitch" by getting run over.  Cop suggested that getting arrested would also work to show that bitch. The guy considered this and agreed, after which he came quietly.

 

 

[Yenn]

The police have a hard job to do and it is not aided by the government. They see crims get a slap on the wrist or even less and frustration must build up. There was a death in custody years ago which has never been satisfactorily dealt with. A senior constable was found to have caused it and also not to have caused it by two separate coroners courts.

 

It is my opinion that any death in custody must be a police responsibility, but that doesn't seem to happen. maybe this latest case is similar to the American one where an Aussie woman was murdered by a policeman. Who knows, we have not heard any facts at all.

 

 

[old man emu]

It is my opinion that any death in custody must be a police responsibility,

 

Yenn, that's pre-judging the matter. There are many causes of a person's death in custody. Did you realise that Ivan Milat's death from cancer will be investigated as a DIC, because he was in custody at the time? Or that the death of a motorist trying to outrun police is a DIC.  Here are the answers to some FAQs about death in custody  https://www.correctiveservices.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/frequently-asked-questions-submit-as-final.pdf 

 

The questions that need to be answered satisfactorily are;

 

1. To what extent did the actions of the deceased contribute to the death?

 

2. If police used force to stop the deceased's actions, was the level of force used appropriate?

 

3. If the death occurred whilst the deceased was confined in a cell, or other part of police or prison premises, did authorities satisfactorily comply with documented Duty of Care procedures?

 

It is twenty years since the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody carried out its investigations and handed down its recommendations. (Those recommendations also apply to non-Aborigines). Here are some matters that need to be addressed now https://www.crikey.com.au/deaths-in-custody/

 

You have to realise that the majority of people who are initially taken into detained custody by police and subsequently die in custody were detained because it was their behaviour that required them to be removed for the safety of the Public. Unfortunately a lot of these detained people are irrational due to mental illness. That's something governments must do more to protect them. The others are yobbos who are irrational because they are full of p|ss and bad manners or "recreational drugs". 

 

We introduced better laws so that people who are generally not a threat to public safety can be released from custody to carry on their normal lives pending the Court's determination of the allegation against them. It has got that way that now a lot of minor crime is dealt with by Penalty Notice and the alleged offender is only in police custody for the time it takes to write the ticket.

 

 

[Bruce]

I reckon this Yuendumu killing was tragic for the police as well as the aborigines and the blame lies with those who made a scared young man wear a gun in a situation where the tragedy so caused should have been foreseen .

 

 

[Yenn]

I was looking at the problem as OMEs No 3.

 

I don't consider someone being chased by police to be in police custody as it obvious they are not in control.

 

A woman was recently removed from a train in Vic. I think and she died in the cell. She was removed because she was drunk. I consider the police did not show the required care for her, in fact I wonder what would have happened if she had been left alone to continue her journey. The police may have been forced to arrest her for drunkenness by their own rules or those of the railway. The fact that she died means that she was at risk, wherever she was, but we all know that we have to be carefull with drunks as they may not be really drunk or there may be other factors happening. In stating that I feel the police are responsible, I am well aware that they have a very difficult job to do, but they wanted that job and also they will get support from their bosses, I hope.

 

 

[Bruce]

Police are not the right people to look after mental-health people, and it is a shame that they are so often the only ones there.  There was an insane man in Port Augusta jail who walked around with poo in his pants. He might still be there for all I know. I wish we spent less on some other government things and spent more on looking after the homeless and the insane.

 

In the meantime, I feel sorry for the front-line police as well as their clients.

 

 

[old man emu]

I don't consider someone being chased by police to be in police custody as it obvious they are not in control.

 

Sorry, Yenn, but I'm correct in that statement

 

The term is usually used to refer to people under arrest (in police custody, on remand (pre-trial detention), or in prison after sentencing. People under police pursuit may also be included.

 

It's true that police pursuing an alleged offender have little or no control on where the alleged offender goes, or what the alleged offender does to evade apprehension, but the Powers that Be have decided that this situation falls into the DIC category. 

 

 

[Marty_d]

I haven't paid a great deal of attention to this story, but I thought that a police officer was stabbed in the shoulder just before the man was shot?

 

Obviously each situation is different - but if that was what happened, then similar cases where police were threatened with a knife and ended up shooting the assailant, have been found to be a reasonable application of force.

 

What it says to me is that our police need to be provided with other options rather than a gun when facing an assailant with a weapon such as an edged or blunt weapon.  I think that police still need guns - there are situations where they're facing someone who's threatening them or someone else with a projectile weapon or motor vehicle - but surely there's some options to quickly immobilize the assailant if it's "only" a hand held one?

 

Are there any working and reliable net-throwing guns?  Bit hard for someone to threaten anyone when they're on the ground tangled in a net.

 

 

[old man emu]

I don't know about NT Police, but in NSW the police carry

 

1. Extendable baton

 

2. OC spray

 

3. Taser

 

4. Firearm

 

This list is an indicator of tools for the escalation of force. It has left out the most useful weapons - ears and mouth, which should be at the top of the list. The problem is that there is too much expectation that the police will take a violent/irrational person under control very quickly. If police were encouraged to take their time they could often talk a person into surrendering without the use of force at all. What police forget is that in most situations, time is on their side. It's a case of "I don't care if you keep it up mate, I'm getting paid no matter how long it takes." Police have to consider that if they "besiege" an offender and don't immediately resort to a frontal attack, there is more chance of talking an offender down rather than taking them down.

 

But, that's the opinion of an old dog copper with years of experience. It seems that today's pups think that since the old dog hasn't got a Diploma of Policing like them, the old dog doesn't know anything. It seems that continuing education at the University of Hard Knocks counts for little these days.

 

 

[Yenn]

OME I didn't doubt your correctness, but was stating what I recognise as custody. There are many occasions where the official meaning is different from what the average person thinks it is.

 

Incest springs to mind. There was a case recently where someone was successfully charged with incest, because he had sex with a child his parents fostered. Now in my opinion that was not real incest, but a good use of the word to protect children in the same family. I believe incest is what causes a problem with genetics and that was its reason to be banned.

 

There are other options to protect police and they have them. Haven't you noticed that they wear bulky vests, which are designed to make knife attacks less of a problem. They have so much to carry around that it sometimes looks as if they have trouble walking.

 

 

[old man emu]

YENN,

 

There's often a difference between what is the "official" use of a word and what people actually use. This is common with acronyms, for example "PIN" is the official acronym, but in actually usage it is most often "PIN number", where the word 'Number" is redundant.

 

The official meaning of "custody" is what I wrote, but you recognise  it to mean "restraint". That's similar to the correct meaning of "arrest". In Law, "arrest" means the cancellation of a person's freedom of movement. For example, if signaled to stop at an RBT site, the driver is "under arrest" until the screening breath test is completed. If the test is negative, then the "arrest' is terminated. If the test is positive, then the "arrest" continues until the evidentiary breath test has been completed.

 

Getting back to aviation, CASA says that an aircraft's Time In Service is from takeoff to landing, but, as can be seen from another discussion here, most people consider Time in Service to be from engine start to engine shut down.

 

 

[Yenn]

We have two at least meanings to lots of words. The generally accepted meaning, which is what you see in the dictionary is one. The legal meaning, that is described in an act of parliament is not necessarily the same.

 

As far as CASA goes we have to define take off and landing. CASA itself seems to consider landing is when the plane comes to rest after a flight and that can be a long time after the actual first or second touch down.

 

What has this got to do with guns and Yuendumu?

 

 

[old man emu]

OME I didn't doubt your correctness, but was stating what I recognise as custody.

 

What has this got to do with guns and Yuendumu?

 

 

 

Nothing to do with the original topic, but I was explaining that the way you recognise the word "custody" is not quite the same as its meaning in the legal phrase "death in custody" and what constitutes "in custody" with respect to a death associated with police or prison actions. Your meaning is much wider than the legal meaning in this situation.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

It's a case of "I don't care if you keep it up mate, I'm getting paid no matter how long it takes."

 

 

 

"Yeah Mate, you just keep stabbing me, I got plenty of time".

 

Career criminal, multiple warrants for his arrest, charges the Policeman with a knife inflicting wound .... gets shot. 

 

Had this been a White man in Logan City, it would be page 3 down in a corner. 

 

I fully agree many situations could be talked down, other times when the Cop should just leave completely (sadly many egos won't allow that) but when a nasty young man (lets drop the "teenager" bollshot) comes at you with a knife, that's the line in the sand. 

 

Have you ever been to Yuendumu?

 

I have. Twice. Neither time did I feel safe enough to get out of the car.

 

 

 

After spending time in the Newell Hwy towns and South West Qld drilling, I ain't got a lot of time for Aboriginals. There's good reason those towns look like apocalyptic towns in Hollywood Zombie movies with everything barred and boarded up. speak to the local hospitals if you want to know what a town is really like. How many times we were told not to walk outside after say 7pm by our Motel managers.... 

 

We would often have our dinners at the local RSL or similar club, who would mention to you when leaving to stay together, be careful walking through the car park ect. 

 

What was a surprise was most of them agree that gangs of kids around 10 years old are the worst.

 

On the other hand, some family members who have lived many years in Darwin, and some other people in other Central areas say they are terrific people, so who knows, maybe location or economy specific. I can only go on my own experiences.