A cure for our kids' illiteracy?

[pmccarthy]

I have 9 1/2 grandchildren and I think they are at least as smart and well educated as we were.

 

 

[old man emu]

it is crucial that at school children learnt to use the technology they will be working with

 

I think it is fair to say that most kids are competent in the use what digital technology is applicable to their activities, but how many school kids are competent to use tools for manual tasks? Have you seen kids making any plaything lately? When was the last time you heard of a young woman making her own clothes (don't fire back "sexist comment"). Those kids with some get-up-and-go are whizzes at exploiting the digital world, but for many kids their get-up-and-go seems to be still in bed.

 

Government is making calls for more young people to take up apprentices, but the calls are for work in the construction industry. When was the last time you heard of a kid taking up an apprenticeship say as a dental technician making dentures, or some other rare trade? Our kids have the innate ability to create great things, but we don't have anything that really encourages them to explore where their interests and talents could lead them.  There's too much emphasis on gaining a university education, which is something that may be of value to a few. If you analyse the work, does a doctor really need to be trained at university level to effectively provide health care?

 

 

[octave]

Have you seen kids making any plaything lately? When was the last time you heard of a young woman making her own clothes (don't fire back "sexist comment").

 

Yes I have, Knitting has become quite popular amongst young adults.  I guess it is a matter of where your experience of young people comes from, of course there are many people who pursue hobbies that are not manual and that is fine.   They might not be doing the hobbies that we know from our youth but some are still building things. Perhaps the young people I know are exceptional but with my music students I often ask them what else they do.  Quite a few build computers from scratch one builds robots,   The fact that young people of school age or university age are not necessarily out there doing multiple manual hobbies is hardly that surprising given the time demands.  I am often stunned by how many activities my younger students are involved in. 

 

I am impressed by most of the young people I interact with.

 

 

[Marty_d]

 My kids were making bows out of bamboo the other day. They make secret hideouts in the forest.

 

Don't know whose kids you're basing this on OME, but give them a chance and they'll be kids.

 

 

[old man emu]

Don't know whose kids you're basing this on OME, but give them a chance and they'll be kids.

 

I guess I'm just seeing suburban kids. It's hard to make a secret cubby house when there's no place that is secret.

 

Perhaps the young people I know are exceptional

 

If the kids you teach have taken on the task of learning to play an instrument, and learn to read and comprehend the syntax —rules for ordering elements such as notes, chords, and intervals into complex structures of music, then I'd say they are exceptions to the general population, and are more likely to undertake other complex pastimes. 

 

 

[nomadpete]

Quote 

 

"Whilst a book may provide a self contained body of knowledge that was relevant at its time of printing it does not necessarily present the depth and breadth that can be obtained using the resources of the internet."

 

I see a problem with that statement.

 

I regularly come across dated information on the internet. There is a great deal of uncorroborated or downright incorrect information out there. I'm not saying that every book is a perfect record of facts, but at least it is time/date stamped. Books are more frequently proof read than internet stuff.

 

"Depth and breadth"?

 

From the internet?

 

Bah!

 

 

[Bruce]

I'm at a loss in giving advice to my high-school grandkids about what careers are going to be good. A generation ago, I was right to support my son in his decision to go with an apprenticeship instead of university. He has done much better than mates who did engineering.

 

The only union-conditions ordinary  job these days is the police. In my time I should have done medicine, but there are downsides to both those jobs. You can ( but don't have to )  grow fearful and suspicious  from mixing with bad and sick people.  And medicine could well be impacted by artificial intelligence.   There will soon be diagnostic competitions between trained technicians running AI and traditional doctors. Besides, I don't think they (the grandkids ) will study hard enough to get into medicine. 

 

My present best guess is agricultural science. People will still want to eat and I reckon resource depletion, climate change and over-population are soon going to end this era of food so cheap its almost free. Then they can learn to shear and come and run the farm.

 

Robotics is another possibility. I don't think the present construction employment can continue.

 

Please help, what do you guys reckon is going to boom?

 

 

[octave]

Quote 

 

"Whilst a book may provide a self contained body of knowledge that was relevant at its time of printing it does not necessarily present the depth and breadth that can be obtained using the resources of the internet."

 

I see a problem with that statement.

 

I regularly come across dated information on the internet. There is a great deal of uncorroborated or downright incorrect information out there. I'm not saying that every book is a perfect record of facts, but at least it is time/date stamped. Books are more frequently proof read than internet stuff.

 

"Depth and breadth"?

 

From the internet?

 

Bah!

 

 

 

The internet provides opportunity to check multiple sources instantly. I believe we do need to use new tools correctly and to know that the information from some sources is not as reliable as from other sources.   Have you ever used Google Scholar?    I can go to the NASA website and download raw satellite data if I wish.  I can look up a subject and get input from many contributors not just one author.  

 

Yes I assert that the internet can provide depth and breadth.

 

Breadth because pretty much any subject you are interested in you can find information of various qualities.  Depth because you can find very specific and detailed information.

 

A quick search of a randomly selected subject 'goat breeding" (something I have absolutely no interest in) yields 27,6000,000 results some of which will be useless of course but many from reliable sources, often information from people who have also written books.

 

Whilst a book may provide an interpretation of a scientific paper on the net I can actually read the original paper.

 

I am most definitely not anti book but I am definitely pro information and throughout history the methods of delivery have changed and will continue to change, I intend to make maximum use of all sources of information.  

 

 

[octave]

Please help, what do you guys reckon is going to boom?

 

I think the days of a career for life are ending.   I don't have any young young people in my family who are at that stage in their education but my advice would be to be adaptable, to develop a love of learning new things.  

 

 

[octave]

If the kids you teach have taken on the task of learning to play an instrument, and learn to read and comprehend the syntax —rules for ordering elements such as notes, chords, and intervals into complex structures of music, then I'd say they are exceptions to the general population, and are more likely to undertake other complex pastimes. 

 

 

 

According to AUSSTATS around about 20% of children learn a musical instrument, I would imagine that you may find similar or greater results for sports and other pursuits. Hardly exceptional.

 

I think it is important to not right off any age group.  I could go down to the local club and see the retired folk feeding money into pokie machines as many do but this is not the definition of an older person. Many older people are still working or doing volunteer work  or fighting fires with the bush fire brigade.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Octave, with all due respect, I feel you are viewing the "depth and breadth" of internet through your own thorough investigative paradigm. Sadly, such curiosity and forensic tenacity (or personal open minded debate) is neither taught, nor actively encouraged by schooling or most parents.

 

Yes, some of us are like a kid in a toyshop, exploring, learning, balancing differing information, verifying sources, etc. And for us it is a great boon. But most young people are growing up in an environment where simple answers are easy. For instance,  I am disappointed by the lack of logical thought, diagnostic sifting that had been shown by diploma level trainees in the technology industry that I recently left. They had no ability to question or verify anything.

 

The potential is there, just like the great educational potential for advancement of civilisation that was promised by TV back in the 1950's. That age of information hasn't lived up to its promise too well. I see our new age of information as being rather limited by the lack of will, by people who have an attention span of a goldfish.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Regarding the question of what jobs to steer young people towards......

 

Our youngest pair have just entered the workforce.

 

Male - Plumber. One year out of apprenticeship, is in business for himself, earning very good money, more work than he can handle. People will always need a plumber and (at present there is a shortage of them.

 

Girl - just finished Uni. Degree in civil engineering (environmental). Immediately landed a very good job. Not earning as much as her brother but not doing as many hours, either.

 

Both cases look like longish term employment.

 

The problem is trying to see a niche that is short of staff. Then hoping that the niche isn't filled before your aspiring students get qualified for the job. Unfortunately most jobs are temporary nowadays. We live in interesting times.

 

 

[octave]

Octave, with all due respect, I feel you are viewing the "depth and breadth" of internet through your own thorough investigative paradigm. Sadly, such curiosity and forensic tenacity (or personal open minded debate) is neither taught, nor actively encouraged by schooling or most parents.

 

Yes, some of us are like a kid in a toyshop, exploring, learning, balancing differing information, verifying sources, etc. And for us it is a great boon. But most young people are growing up in an environment where simple answers are easy. For instance,  I am disappointed by the lack of logical thought, diagnostic sifting that had been shown by diploma level trainees in the technology industry that I recently left. They had no ability to question or verify anything.

 

The potential is there, just like the great educational potential for advancement of civilisation that was promised by TV back in the 1950's. That age of information hasn't lived up to its promise too well. I see our new age of information as being rather limited by the lack of will, by people who have an attention span of a goldfish.

 

 

 

So the answer is to equip people to use the available tools in the best way not discard the tool.  

 

 

[nomadpete]

It comes back to finding ways to stimulate the curiosity of our young learners. My cynicism comes from observing the failure of previous great learning tools. Luckily there are curious kids out there that are using our information technology to advantage. I hope their passion to learn rubs off on their peers.

 

 

[spacesailor]

PLEASE  , PLEASE  don,t bring back that old learning  STICK. 

 

spacesailor 

 

 

[old man emu]

  I am disappointed by the lack of logical thought, diagnostic sifting that had been shown by diploma level trainees in the technology industry that I recently left. They had no ability to question or verify anything.

 

Is it the fault of the trainees, or the fault of a system that concentrates on providing the answers to the probable exam questions? The concept of "No Child Will Fail" seems to put the accent on preparing for exam questions per se, not applying the theory of the subject to diagnosis and problem solving.

 

Is this accent on preparing answers for exam questions a new thing? Nope. I remember preparing exam questions answers in my HSC year back in the '60's. Even earlier, I remember learning the translation from Latin of some part of Julius Caesar's "Gallic Wars" by rote, then not knowing when to stop when I came to short extract in the actual exam. 

 

some of us are like a kid in a toyshop, exploring, learning, balancing differing information, verifying sources, etc. And for us it is a great boon.

 

Is that because we learned as children to examine encyclopedia and other text books for the information we wanted and not the 'Net makes the preliminary parts of the search so much more convenient?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Some things never change:

 

 

[ATTACH]50470._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]50471._xfImport[/ATTACH]

[Yenn]

I am no expert and had no interest in school work when I was at school. In the bottom half of the lower form at high school.

 

I left and went to agricultural college and was immediately in the top 3%. That is nor because of the stupidity of the other students, but because I was interested and had good teachers.

 

Sadly I don't think agriculture is the way to go nowadays. there has been a massive change in agriculture, starting about my time at college and it is rather like the medical industry. Use chemicals so that the big companies make a fortune and the original business is stuffed.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

All forms of science and engineering, then work in the minerals industry. Two of my girls did environmental degrees and have the most interesting and rewarding jobs you can imagine. The minerals industry and its related service industry has the money to do things well and has more advanced technology than other aspects of Australian industry. We lead the world, for example, in autonomous vehicle technology and remote/ robotic operations.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Firefighting.  Growth industry with opportunities all over the world.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Science,  more artificial foods needed.

 

Tofu now has chemical,s in it.

 

Beef burger patties now without BEEF.

 

Drinks many contain chemical sweetners.

 

The list gets biger daily.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

When all else fails, we could actually ask a teacher:

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-07/the-demise-of-australian-mathematics-teachers-students/11768644

 

 

[old man emu]

When all else fails, we could actually ask a teacher:

 

That's the cause of this problem - asking the opinions of those doing the work. 

 

 

[Yenn]

Then there is the other cause of the problem, which is all the experts who keep changing the system. I use the term experts in its well known description, Ie. an unknown drip under pressure.

 

 

[Bruce]

When things started to go bad, it was because the good teachers had all of their authority taken from them. I partly blame their union for this.

 

I know a great teacher who nearly broke down over the fact that the rough kids were now running the classes, and there was nothing he could do about it. He was also responsible for a junior teacher who couldn't spell, so he had to correct all this junior's report cards before they went out.

 

Now I am not saying they should have the power to hit the kids, but they should have the power to exclude them from the class.

 

Appealing to an idiot headmaster is worse than useless, as he can just instruct the teacher to make his lessons so enthralling that the rough kids sit there enthralled.