How can Australia become the Innovative Nation as once promised?

[Old Koreelah]

  Discussion transferred from the 'Flight shaming' and the ethics of recreational flying?

 

...others want it now and dont think about the time required or the dollars required to get it as soon as you can to help the problems we are faced with. If more of these "screamers" out there actually looked at what is behind every solution they would realise it cant happen now. I am just over totally all this. All they want to do is glue themselves to the roads and bridges and totally screw up functioning of a city when their efforts would be better to go back to school or university and actually learn something to help try to solve the problems...

 

Although I find of your rhetoric quite disrespectful to the many thoughtful people who really care about our future, I do agree that many protesters have little idea of the complexities of the issues and many lack the gumption to contribute to solutions. 

 

Sydney 5.3 million

 

Singapore 5.8 million

 

Israel 8.7 million

 

Sweden  10.2 million

 

Finland  5.5 million

 

Switzerland 8.57 million

 

That pretty much illustrates my point.

 

All of the above countries are way advanced in front of us in doing research and development and their basic educations are far better than ours. A huge amount of new tech comes from those places because they do spend the money to make smarter people....

 

So true, but who is to blame?

 

Australia doesn't value education; I took a pay cut when I went from labouring to teaching. I cringe when is see the poor spelling, grammar and general knowledge of some of my newer colleagues.

 

Australians seem to spend more on lifestyle, gambling and comfort than we do on educating their kids.

 

Governments regularly cut funding to Universities and our world-class CSIRO. What a stupid country!

 

...our country is becoming dumbed down by the "do gooders" who want all the lovey feely crap at school. Those above countries push their populations to be better .. we dont.

 

I agree our kids have been allowed to become lazy. I have a friend who did the hard yards and learned Japanese, after the Government rolled out the great Asian Languages plan. Years of expensive study for nothing, because kids usually choose the easier electives.

 

...every single day in the people I deal with due to my work. Engineers are dumb now. What happens when all of us older generation with experience are gone. You can not tell these smart arses what will work and what wont because they know better than you they read it in a book... 

 

Totally agree. This week I attended a community meeting to provide feedback on our local government's future planning. Well-paid young execs with little local knowledge gave lots of lip service to people's concerns, but still seem to believe they are there to administer us, rather than to serve us.

 

... The reason is I try to innovate... I dont see this happening in the industries that we need to be advanced...

 

Very true. Australia's governments have a woeful record of supporting innovation. Lots of money is spent, but I suspect too much goes to professional consultants and the grant-application industry. (I've been involved on many unsuccessful grant applications, yet see the big pots of money going to the favoured few. Corruption is rife.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"

 

 

" I agree our kids have been allowed to become lazy. I have a friend who did the hard yards and learned Japanese, after the Government rolled out the great Asian Languages plan. Years of expensive study for nothing,".

 

BUT why learn another countries language ?.

 

If this & ALL other countries learnt  ( " Esperanto is the most widely spoken constructed international auxiliary language. It was created by Polish ophthalmologist L. L. Zamenhof in 1887, when he published a book detailing the language," )  this ONE language.We all will speak to each other .

 

Fun fact Most countries have an Esperantist club, so those that do learn it can get Free guides in their holiday country of choice.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Spacey I too was an Esperanto convert, but it didn't take off. 

 

Why learn the language of another country? Australia is very dependent on international trade, but our negotiators are renowned for getting us a poor deal. People who learn the language of another country are at a distinct advantage in understanding that culture. The best argument for this is to look at the many successful export ventures set up by immigrants and their children.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

My son lives and works in China. He used to teach chinese kids how to speak english. He has been there for 11 years now.  He left here just when he turned 20 after doing a course here so he could do the job. He taught for about 8 years He now looks after all the teachers in the 9 different schools the company runs over china so he travels a lot within China. He speaks chinese very well. When you live and work with the locals then its easier but he did do a batchelor of linguistics at Griffith Uni then a scholarship at Bejing university for a year. He likes it over there I dont expect to see him back for any time soon but I keep telling him to get a translator job for meets and such. He used to do chinese to english translations for a few companies in his spare time to earn some extra cash. I told him he will be able to get a job anywhere he wants with those skills and when he gets tired of all the looking after other staff and people..go and find a better job using those well earnt skills.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't know about the whole "kids are lazy" thing - it's been a recurring complaint from the middle-aged and over since Roman times.

 

The young people I've had contact with at work have really impressed me with their motivation, confidence and ability.  

 

And when it comes to protesting and the whole "you should stay at school" line espoused by Scotty from Marketing, among others - totally disagree.

 

It's their planet.  They'll be living on it for potentially 80-90 years.  They have the absolute right to stand up and speak truth to power, and the leadership they're showing in this space is far beyond any experience they'll get in the classroom.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Marty_d

 

I agree school doesn't work for some, and they seem to do well.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

They have the absolute right to stand up and speak truth to power, and the leadership they're showing in this space is far beyond any experience they'll get in the classroom.

 

Everyone has the right to freedom of speech

 

But they dont have the right to disrupt the whole of a inner city with misspelt signs for almost a day every time they do it.

 

And yes I agree they have a case but I think it would be much more constructive to go and upset that big white house in Canberra every day for as long as they want. Disrupt the playtime school yard they call parliament and that may attract attention from the right place

 

If they want to effect change and they are truly smart and not led by the wierdos around the place they would be protesting or lobbying the large companies that are NOT spending time and resources to trying to make better faster solutions..Lets face those are the companies with the bucks to be able to do it. Why piss off the general public (us old farts) with a total waste of your time and energy protesting that will not do anything actually constructive. 

 

Yes if it was me 40 years ago then I too would be diverting all the spare energy I had into doing something much more effective and smarter with my available time to see if I could make a difference. But I am just a grumpy old fart now..worn out from busting my arse running a business and employing plenty of young people and paying my taxes and never took a handout from any government. There were a few times in my early working life when I didnt have a job and I didnt take the dole at all...I went out and found a job so that while working that job found a better one and then eventually started my own business which ran for 30 years until I was pretty much burnt out. 

 

So I am sorry you dont think I have much sympathy for these young ones..and I dont to be brutally honest. If you want something done you have to do it yourself but the proviso is always that you have to have the drive and energy to do it. My experience is in the last 10 years I see very few young ones with those attributes. The guys we have working for us are great workers but it took some weeding through a lot of chaff to find them....we also pay them appropriately to make sure we keep them too because good ones are hard to find

 

 

[old man emu]

How can young people set themselves goals when there are no targets to aim at? Life was harder 100 years ago, but the average kid had a vast number of examples of trades and other occupations that could be observed in the community. Today's kids do not have such wide a range because Economics of Scale have sent so many trades and occupations out of the country. Look at what is in the course books our TAFEs. There are fewer Secondary industry courses and more Tertiary industry ones. Try to find a cabinetmaker apprentice who actually makes things with a lot of handwork. Now the majority of the furniture offered to us has been cut from a melamine sheet by a CNC router machine. The only industry that seems to provide a lifetime career is the housing construction industry with its many component trades. Otherwise the trades are repair and maintenance.

 

 

[facthunter]

Given a fair go, the young are not much different from what they  ever were. Why would they not be a little disillusioned though? If being like us is all they could hope for/ Aspire to, they would have to be brain dead to see as a  worthy Goal.

 

   . I'm a bit perplexed to see China emulating a lot of the Wests  undesirable features and problems for the future. BIG cities dependent on vulnerable food chains and divorced from rural areas totally. the best "Concrete canyons" don't have the aura of natural  landforms and don't last for 1000's of years. Nev

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

How can young people set themselves goals when there are no targets to aim at? Life was harder 100 years ago, but the average kid had a vast number of examples of trades and other occupations that could be observed in the community. Today's kids do not have such wide a range because Economics of Scale have sent so many trades and occupations out of the country. Look at what is in the course books our TAFEs. There are fewer Secondary industry courses and more Tertiary industry ones. Try to find a cabinetmaker apprentice who actually makes things with a lot of handwork. Now the majority of the furniture offered to us has been cut from a melamine sheet by a CNC router machine. The only industry that seems to provide a lifetime career is the housing construction industry with its many component trades. Otherwise the trades are repair and maintenance.

 

Totally agree...try and find a plumber nowdays

 

 

[old man emu]

They've all disappeared down cracks. 

 

 

[Yenn]

Even when you do find a tradesman, you will be lucky to find a good one.

 

I worked for years with plumbers, just overseeing their work and I was appalled at the lack of skills and knowledge. That was over twenty years ago and I have seen some completely ignorant plumbers since then. I did find one who excelled at all he did and it was a great surprise. I did once call a tradie incompetent in front of others and his employer threatened to take my employer to court. Nothing came of it as the apology they wanted was not forthcoming and a court case didn't look like good advertising.

 

Plumbers are not alone, there are some shonky electricians out there and motor mechanics seem to have a place all of their own, where they can cost you vast amounts, due to their incompetence.

 

 

[facthunter]

"Dispersed" into associated building activities like specialist cladding ( roofing walls on High rise) etc.. Plumbing is all Poly now. if you are talking water in pipes. Making money on maintenance is not likely to feed the kids.. Nev

 

 

[old man emu]

OK, dispersed into other aspects of the construction industry.

 

 

[spacesailor]

  ", there are some shonky electricians out there  "

 

I'll never forgive them for making the BLIND (colour ) electricians. 

 

Having to change the wire colours to suit them was also ridiculous, Sky blue is the High,/ or Red for danger. Brown is the Earth colour/or Grass-green.

 

I DID have a house wired wrong, with panel-heater's & the washing machine LIVE to touch. 

 

Blew the expensive volt meter to bits when used to check if was dangerous.

 

spacesailor 

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I still hold my electrical licence..which I will do the 5 yearly test online again around my birthday this year but that will be the last time. I am building a house up at my farm this year so it needs to be current as obviously I will be doing it. I get emails from the elec licencing board and pretty much weekly there are reports out about sparkys getting done for poor or bad work and thats just in Qld.

 

If you actually find a good tradesman now you stick to them like glue and pay what you need to. There are so many bad rough ones out there now. I put this down to the stupid "apprentice hire" companies. It is virtually just labour hire. They dont learn anything like in the old days when you were indentured to a tradesman or a company that had tradesman. This labour hire way just does not train properly or instil good work practices and it is all coming home to roost now. Every trade is the same. When I did our "college training" now TAFE it was a big deal now it doesnt really teach the theory properly and its very short. They have also broken the trade up into sections. Elec mechanic (house/building wiring) then the elec fitter (motors and generators). I went through as a elec fitter mechanic then did a post trade course for industrial electronics which was named elec fitter/mechanic special class. This does not exist now

 

Luckily where I did my apprenticeship we had every single section that allowed you to do all of this. We even had our own training school which we did a lot of time in as well as the college "block release" which is the TAFE now

 

I know it sounds like oh its not anywhere near as good as back in the old days but actually that IS the truth it is NOT....everyone can see it with their own eyes in every trade

 

 

[Yenn]

Electricians had those different types 40 years ago. I regularly came into contact with house wiring electricians, who had absolutely no idea about how to wire up a motor.

 

I also came across industrial electricians who wired up a winch and other gear on my job, who failed to put any fuses into the system. Result 300 feet of heavy wire burnt out and my workers narrowly missing being killed by an out of control winch.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Well they were not good electricians..everyone knows because it was beaten into you that every circuit whether DC or AC must have a fuse or breaker at the source.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Thatcher put nearly a thousand aprentises out of their chosen work in one hit, electrical, mechanical and transport, all gone,

 

About 1500 workers went as well.

 

She had a great sendoff, parties in many northern town streets.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

A very sad trend Mark. I've seen this up close and personal. 

 

I suspect much of this disease has come from the US, whose "efficiency experts" have buggered up many an industry. My brother spent time there in the RAAF and learned that the Americans tend to be trained in narrow  specialties, while our blokes received broad training and developed wide-ranging expertise. He was told our techies know enough to be officers in their forces.

 

If decision-makers had heeded the warnings decades ago, it might not be so bad. Razor gangs have pruned TAFE to within a mm of its life. 

 

Private training colleges are often a huge government-funded rort. Australia is rapidly losing it's reputation for maintaining standards.

 

 

[facthunter]

Today in the trades you have the issue of who is teaching the teachers.. TAFE has been a political football. LNP call it "basket weavers" so their attitude is a bit "har farted". Going to university  and getting a degree in APPLIED Science CAN produce  a degree in knowing a bit about practically NOTHING. You can come out with a huge debt and no real hope of a job.. It's also often a lever (faked) to a place in the country.  The whole lot needs a good looking in to. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate.

 

I don't think I would trust a teacher to actually do the job.

 

 

[old man emu]

If one was to be brutally honest, the only things a university should be involved with are the rarefied subjects of the various philosophies - Science, the Arts, and Mathematics. Everything else that can train a person to do some task, even Medicine and Law does not require the training to be carried out at a university. 

 

 

[facthunter]

 Yeah I think Bertrand Russel said something like that Yenn. I'm a great admirer of GOOD teachers but they must be the correct people for the job and properly educated and equipped as well as paid properly. Person to person contact is pretty essential for it to work well. . The System must be  administered thoughtfully as well. Too often stupid ideas hold back a whole generation of kids while some clown tries out a pet idea. . The BLIND cannot lead the Blind. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate.

 

I don't think I would trust a teacher to actually do the job.

 

Fighting words if not actually insulting to many of us who gained the qualifications and put in the really hard yards to pass something on the the young tradies of tomorrow. How do you think young people are going to become tradesmen if we don't commit to the task? Really ignorant thing to say.... I suppose we can all excuse ourselves from blame by p***ing on "the greenies" or bloody unions or VET teachers.

 

Many employers understand so little of WHS that their kids are injured or killed on the job. Pay as little as possible and complain that apprentices are a cost when they put them in vans and charge them out as tradesmen. Don't make me laugh.