How can Australia become the Innovative Nation as once promised?

[old man emu]

Many employers understand so little of WHS that their kids are injured or killed on the job

 

Some employers allow the more dangerous practices that injure or kill because in many trades, the employer has come up from the ranks, done some dangerous things whilst in the ranks, and if nothing has harmed them in the process consider that nothing is wrong with doing dangerous things. Also, small business employers  put a lower priority on WH&S when paying bills and taxes, getting new work and getting paid for completed work take up their "non-billable" time. To them, implementing good WH&S procedures is counter-productive to finishing the job.

 

I will agree that some WH&S zealots fail to properly assess the risk factors in associated with an activity and insist on overkill. Is it really an employer's obligation to tell workers not to leave hoses and cables stretched across the workshop floor so that no one trips over them? Or not to use portable electrical equipment with frayed cords. Or not to remove safety guards from machinery and tools? Some of these things should be taught in the home - pick up your clothes. Don't leave your toys laying about. Look after your toys.

 

One of my bugbears is children running across the paths of other people. Often seen in shopping centres, and common in school yards, exerting one's right to move about quickly, but ignoring the responsibility to avoid collisions endangers everybody. Of course, you can't say anything, because the Karens of this world will instantly tell you that Little Johnny and Mary are simply exuberant and that you should watch where you are going in the first place. The sort of lack of responsibility is the preciser to hare-like driving on our roads. 

 

 

[Marty_d]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate.

 

I don't think I would trust a teacher to actually do the job.

 

Sorry Yenn, but that's one of the silliest sayings out there.

 

I know a few teachers.  One of our mates taught Pharmacy at Uni and is an extremely capable hospital pharmacist himself, as well as being a great educator (ask my wife; he taught her.)

 

When I did my cert IV in Residential Drafting at TAFE, all the teachers I had were very competent operators in their field.

 

Finally, at my work I actually deliver technical training in my field because of my long experience with the data systems.  I wouldn't say I'm a particularly good teacher, but several of the others who train ARE both excellent trainers and also excellent programmers.

 

Generally speaking you want "those who can" to pass the skills to the next generation, so the saying falls dead right there.

 

 

[Litespeed]

A saying used often by those that either have a low IQ or blinded by one experience.

 

Such comments are exactly why we are a dumb country. 

 

Want to see a clever innovative country? 

 

Pay , resource and respect educators.

 

Even little children understand that.

 

 

[Yenn]

OK so I have a low IQ. The comment bout pay, resource and respect educators has me worried. In the non technical field of education, we have for a long while been told that education is not working. We have also heard that teachers should be paid more. As I see it from my low IQ point of view what we need is not necessarily better paid teachers, but better teachers. Paying them more will not make them better and I doubt it would attract those older teachers who left, because they were disillusioned. What is needed for any failings in the process to be recognised and then dealt with.

 

We seem to have a lot of people who think that the answer to any problem is to throw money at it, and it isn't working.

 

My use of the old saying comes from long experience of TAFE teachers, many of whom were OK, but quite a few lived up to that old saying. Some were completely ignorant and peddled their ignorance as dogma. But that was in the newly minted WH&S field.

 

 

[octave]

OK so I have a low IQ. The comment bout pay, resource and respect educators has me worried. In the non technical field of education, we have for a long while been told that education is not working. We have also heard that teachers should be paid more. As I see it from my low IQ point of view what we need is not necessarily better paid teachers, but better teachers. Paying them more will not make them better and I doubt it would attract those older teachers who left, because they were disillusioned. What is needed for any failings in the process to be recognised and then dealt with.

 

We seem to have a lot of people who think that the answer to any problem is to throw money at it, and it isn't working.

 

My use of the old saying comes from long experience of TAFE teachers, many of whom were OK, but quite a few lived up to that old saying. Some were completely ignorant and peddled their ignorance as dogma. But that was in the newly minted WH&S field.

 

Of course money is not the total answer but by way of an example, I recently made contact with and had lunch my favourite high school science teacher. This teacher inspired my lifelong interest in science.  His specialty was/is geology. In the mid 80s he left teaching which he enjoyed for a job with department of mining and energy. He did this because the pay and conditions were far better than working for the education department. Who of us doesn't want to be paid more for the work we do. 

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I see all of your points but how long ago Marty were you trained..and Lightspeed you were done in the mid 80's...Thats yenns point I think. The teachers back then I believe were better trained...just look where our kids are now in the official rankings in the world..damn near least. As far as trade and other education I was listening to god forbid the ABC on the way to work last week and a nurse rang in complaining about the quality and training of the new nurses. They come out as a nicely polished nurse but know nothing and are literally almost dangerous because 90% of their training is done at university and not in the hospitals like it was done. My first wife was a nurse and she trained at the nurses training school at the Royal Brisbane hospital and she still nurses today specializing in the cancer ward and she says the same thing..since they took all the training to university the nurse quality has gone down hill fast. Its the same with almost any occupation like that now. They dont get enough hands on experience being tutored by other experienced teachers/workers ...Electrical engineers who I deal with are the same...great with the theory but have now idea about the practical or how to implement it in the real world. Teaching is no different..its all university. When I was at school they did teachers college but did a stack of classroom stuff as well watching and learning from experienced  teachers.

 

The best engineers we had when I worked at the power authority were the ones that started as a apprentice sparky then went and did their engineering degree at nightschool..they were all great...then you would get the ones straight from university...it was a disaster..we saw it every day and that was 40 years ago

 

 

[octave]

just look where our kids are now in the official rankings in the world..damn near least.

 

 

 

No they are not.  The recent negative news reports about our educational performance were sensationalized.  Australia in the 2018 PISA tests came overall 21st. In Maths it was 29th in Maths and 15th in science 16th in reading.  What has happened is a progress has stagnated somewhat and in some cases other countries have done marginally better.

 

PISA 2018 Worldwide Ranking – average score of mathematics, science and reading

 

 

[Litespeed]

What your talking about is true to a point but it is a function of under resourcing in both the uni, the hospital and cost shifting.

 

As a teacher I learned on the job every year as well as at uni. Theory and practice is the idea.

 

But guess what? The govt and uni were just money hungry and took every opportunity to save money, push costs onto student teachers.

 

Practicums, even though in a classroom, taking a full teaching load and with  minimal supervision, and relieving a teacher for other duties etc....cost big hecs debts as it was charged to the student

 

.

 

You felt screwed by the system as they made you a focus of savings. 

 

The nurses also get screwed big time in training, massive numbers pushed through just to get bums on seats and govt funding. Lectures of hundreds of students and using tutors that are almost slave labour does not help.  Student nurses are just treated like cattle and get very little attention in the wards, when hospitals are squeezed, they don't have the time,money or inclination.

 

Most uni lecturers and tutors have zero job security, are casual and have no career opportunities. That is the capitalist system at work.

 

Why would you expect greatness when you pay peanuts and constantly devalue training.

 

When we constantly attack educators, reduce their real pay, remove career progression and treat them as sausage makers......you get what is natural.

 

No top chef wants to work on a sausage machine.

 

If employers committed to trai ing and apprenticeships rather than just importing skills or expecting students to magically become experts, you would see improvement.

 

 

[spacesailor]

 

ALL THIS TALK ABOUT TEACHERS.

 

Mine were taught by their sergeant, and it showed.

 

they read the book in the evening/night before trying to instil it into a class of unruly children. 

 

NO questions allowed.

 

The BIG STICK brigade .

 

Government guaranteed jobs for the Demobbed.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

The rot set in to the tertiary education system when Labor decided to make it available to everybody, including dumb kids.

 

They might have meant well, but you just have to dumb things down if you want to cater for the mid IQ range.

 

Where I worked, prior to the dumbing down, we went for 20 years without an injury to a student, including on the roads.

 

This was so statistically improbable that I looked into it and found that 90% of road accidents are caused by the lowest 10% of IQ people.  ( Such a politically incorrect thing to know, it has been censored since). We had the top 10% and no accidents.

 

On a similar note, Burt Rutan gave up selling kits because he couldn't cope with dumb kit buyers ringing him up. Rod Stiff is similar, and maybe the reason why the Jabiru written stuff is so good is Stiff's attempt to minimize dealing with dumb people. 

 

 

[spacesailor]

If dumb people have most accidents,

 

Someone who hasn't had one in 60 years must have a better IQ ?.

 

Without a good education.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

Yeah and firemen must make fires happen because at most fires ,there's lots of firemen..  High IQ doesn't mean high risk aversion behaviour and even a low IQ person may be safety conscious. and careful. . . .  EVERYBODY should have an equal chance I life. Not just the offspring of wealthy people.  That's one of the good things Whitlam did,  which most people give him credit for.  

 

   Low IQ people or hard up get lots of driving jobs. Boring and long hours. Perhaps that has a bit to do with your SAFETY stats. IQ is perhaps not what most think it is. It's a measure of one's ability to process information. Just one aspect of many things that affect how one performs.. Nev

 

 

[willedoo]

How do they get the stats; do they make everyone who has had a prang sit for an IQ test?

 

 

[Litespeed]

Simple really, 

 

Just trust Bruce, he knows everything.

 

Obviously if you had a accident you must be a dumb f..k , if not your a genius.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think most of us started off as "accidents". Sex drive was around forever and you don't have to be a genius to do it, and everyone seems to want to. .DLF's..  Nev

 

 

[willedoo]

Simple really, 

 

Just trust Bruce, he knows everything.

 

Obviously if you had a accident you must be a dumb f..k , if not your a genius.

 

Litespeed, I've only had one accident and that was 48 years ago. Does that mean I'm half smart?

 

 

[Methusala]

Rod Stiff is similar, and maybe the reason why the Jabiru written stuff is so good is Stiff's attempt to minimize dealing with dumb people. 

 

I recently had a problem with a Jabiru engine. Ringing Jabiru, I was put immediately through to Rod Stiff who spent a very solid 20 minutes talking it through. He (obviously) did not complain about me being a "dumb' member of the public. I was impressed by his approachability.

 

I taught for 10 years in VET during which time my institute paid for a Cert IV, a Diploma and many other trade related courses. I found it much more difficult to communicate meaningfully with employers than students. I even had one who wanted me to "settle this out in the carpark", when I sent his apprentice back to work for being abusive in class.

 

I think that many stories we have heard being megaphoned through the media regarding the failure of education have an idealogical bias and mainly concern standards in government schools. Well off private schools escape. TAFE also receives a caning but not so much private, for profit RTO's. We went through a rigorous ASQA audit in my last year of teaching and I can assure anybody that the standards for VET are high. Training is a partnership between RTO and employers.

 

 

[Methusala]

I would like to add that the training we deliver today is incomparably better than that which we received in the 1970's.

 

 

[spacesailor]

WAR BABIES WERE NEVER ACCIDENTS.

 

Governments decreed more canon-fodder.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Litespeed]

Litespeed, I've only had one accident and that was 48 years ago. Does that mean I'm half smart?

 

According to some, 

 

That would make you a half wit.

 

 

[willedoo]

According to some, 

 

That would make you a half wit.

 

That's ok, I always like to see myself as a brain half full type of person.

 

 

[facthunter]

 Don't fret. Some have a brain completely full of $#!t. with no room for a modifying/ improving/healing shot of wisdom. or a contrary view. . Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

Australia CAN become a world leader in innovation.

 

All it will take is a political revolution that beings TRANSPARENCY and HONESTY into our government, with a focus on acting in the interests of the majority.

 

It's not really all that hard.

 

So.

 

I'm waiting............................

 

 

[Marty_d]

Federal ICAC anybody?

 

 

[facthunter]

 As long as it can be corrupted so it produces the desired outcome. Betty Windsor should be informed that the Royal Commission "thing" here has been corrupted and should have the ROYAL removed. The Terms of Reference are doctored deliberately by those likely to be caught.  or made to target their political enemies only. and you appoint the RIGHT (for  you) person to run it. at  a generous price. Nev