What price our "democracy"? $$$

[nomadpete]

So true.
Just have to look at how Melbourne is going, to get an idea how the average punter thinks.

Self first, self second, and anything left over, self again.

 

I say this with apologies to those people who are behaving responsibly.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by nomadpete
corrected the autocorrect

[Yenn]

The real price of Democracy is being revealed today. the feds are saying that our representatives can go to canberra but they must self isolate. They can use video conferencing, but then they cannot vote.

That means that Scott Morrison and his cronies are denying us our representation. no democracy there. If the government cannot find a way for video conferencing to enable a vote, it just demonstrates their corruption.

[old man emu]

Of course they can't use video-conferencing. His Orangeness has told ScoMo that video-conferencing can be hacked and manipulated by the Chinese, and what His Orangeness says is always true.

[Marty_d]

10 hours ago, Yenn said:

The real price of Democracy is being revealed today. the feds are saying that our representatives can go to canberra but they must self isolate. They can use video conferencing, but then they cannot vote.

That means that Scott Morrison and his cronies are denying us our representation. no democracy there. If the government cannot find a way for video conferencing to enable a vote, it just demonstrates their corruption.

If they value democracy, then why don't they go to Canberra and self isolate?

 

There's not one rule for the rest of the country and another for politicians.  If I lived in the ACT and there were going to be pollies coming in from other states including areas with Covid, then I'd be wanting them to isolate for 14 days.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Searching through the old memory bank, I reckon that bit about educated Chinese doubting that we were democratic came from a video about how the system worked in China. Sure, there is only the one party, but there are many vying to be the rep for that district and they have to politic without sponsors.

This all makes sense to me, and I reckon Bex would agree ( I hope he is medically ok ).

Another bit of evidence was the self-closure of this town near Wuhan. Local democracy in action more than we see here is the impression I got. Then there was the big official who said on tv that he was mystified at just how the country could be managed without local democracy, on account of how big the whole place was. And there are some remarkable pictures of big developments containing an isolated bit from somebody who refused to sell. They have better property rights than we do, was my thought.

Against all this evidence, we see some vestigial anti-communist prejudice which should have died out in the 1950's.

Now don't reply by asking me to go live there. It is still not a first-world country for most people, and I reckon they are up against resource depletion and climate change in a big way. But I see them rapidly overtaking the west in scientific achievements. I also reckon it's not a good place to be counted as an enemy of the government.

[onetrack]

I believe China will never overtake the West, simply because initiative and business entry is stifled in China, by a Govt that is composed basically of control freaks on steriods.

Initiative and willingness to stand apart from the pack, and make independent decisions, is a hallmark of those of Anglo-Saxon and Western European heritage.

 

I learnt some time back that China has basically propelled itself to it's current status and increased wealth, by a core of about 200,000 Chinese who have been educated in Western institutions, and who basically control China's businesses and technology.

These people are erudite, skilled technically, and have an excellent grasp of the English language and the Western style of doing things. Many have formerly been employed in Western and global corporations.

 

The rest of China is basically peasant class with only limited technical knowledge and no knowledge of English, nor of Western education. These people are generally good workers and skilled in practical "hands-on" work - but they lack business nous and initiative.

The Communist Party rules ruthlessly in China, make no mistake about that. The CCP must be a partner in any sizeable business venture you undertake in China.

They utilise "front" companies to do so - but the CCP needs that major interest in every business operation of note, to enable its continued control of the nation and its people and its direction.

I think it has taken over 25 years for Western leaders to wake up, to just how pervasive, devious and controlling the CCP is.

[Old Koreelah]

4 hours ago, onetrack said:

I believe China will never overtake the West, simply because initiative and business entry is stifled in China, by a Govt that is composed basically of control freaks on steriods.

I agree that their government is on the nose, but it welcomes and encourages business. As this graph shows, China is just recovering from a few centuries of being humiliated by westerners:

 

Quote

Initiative and willingness to stand apart from the pack, and make independent decisions, is a hallmark of those of Anglo-Saxon and Western European heritage. 

So, does this mean no culture can progress unless they adopt the "western" mindset?

Don't forget that much of the technology underlying the rise of Western Europe was developed first in China and stolen by Europeans.

 

Quote

...The Communist Party rules ruthlessly in China, make no mistake about that. The CCP must be a partner in any sizeable business venture you undertake in China...

Right on, OT.

[onetrack]

Quote

Don't forget that much of the technology underlying the rise of Western Europe was developed first in China and stolen by Europeans

The Chinese had technology such as gunpowder, but I'd like to know what other technology Western Europe "stole" from them.

Probably 80% of the technology we use every day came from WW2 development, which was carried out in the Allied Nations, and by the Nazis. The rest has come from space exploration since the mid-1950's.

The transistor was invented in America in 1947, but the Americans could see no major use for it. But the Japs could, and bought the rights to make transistors and miniaturise them - and the rest is history.

The transistor is the greatest invention of the 20th century, and is the building block of our current electronic technology, and other inventions.

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by onetrack

[Yenn]

Onetrack. Your summary was just about the same as was said about japan in the 1930's

[Old Koreelah]

On 9 August 2020 at 6:41 PM, onetrack said:

The Chinese had technology such as gunpowder, but I'd like to know what other technology Western Europe "stole" from them...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

 

 

[onetrack]

Yenn, substantial amounts of Japanese technology in the 1930's came directly from the U.S. and Europe. The Zero was an American design ....

 

From Wikipedia - "Eugene Wilson, president of Vought, claimed that when shown a captured Zero in 1943, he found that, "There on the floor was the Vought V 142 [sic] or just the spitting image of it, Japanese-made", while the "power-plant installation was distinctly Chance Vought, the wheel stowage into the wing roots came from Northrop, and the Japanese designers had even copied the Navy inspection stamp from Pratt & Whitney type parts"

 

Nakajima had set up the Airplane Institute in 1917 and built his first aircraft using a U.S.-built aircraft engine. Then in 1925, he purchased a licence to build from Bristol and was producing two models of the Bristol Jupiter engine by 1927 ....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Ha5

 

The Japanese cars trucks of the 1930's were based on Western and European makes. Both Ford and GM had factories in Japan by 1925 ...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Japan#:~:text=In the 1930s%2C Nissan Motors,car similar to a LaSalle.

 

Caterpillar were selling tractors in Japan in the mid-1920's - but surprisingly, the Japs never cottoned on to the great benefits of earthmoving equipment before WW2, and that is where the Americans won hands-down by producing earthmovers in such numbers, that they could construct an operating airfield from raw ground in 3 days, as they did in the invasion of Italy.

In PNG, the Allies were stunned to find the Japs relying on local labour for hand-clearing for airfield construction, and hauling dirt and stones by hand, to build and rebuild airstrips.

Edited August 10, 2020 by onetrack

[old man emu]

The Japanese also made Harley-Davidson motorcycles under licence in the 1930's. With the Japanese military increasing their grip on both government and industry, agreements with foreign companies operating factories on Japanese soil were voided.  The military encouraged/supported other factories to make H-D copies, without paying licensing fees to H-D.  Japanese companies Kurogane, Aikou, Toko Kogyo, and SSD all produced H-D clones by 1937, with production almost exclusively destined for the military. The first Japanese Harley-Davidsons were built in 1935, the 1200cc Model ‘VL’, and were branded the Harley Davidson ‘Rikuo’ (Road King) model. Rikuo produced 18,000 ‘VL’ models up to 1942, which is about the same as Harley-Davidson’s production of the same model! 

 

[Old Koreelah]

21 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Yenn, substantial amounts of Japanese technology in the 1930's came directly from the U.S. and Europe. The Zero was an American design ...

...and that's when the fight started...

 

OT that is an old furfey and quite insulting to the hard-working Japanese people who created it. I suspect this myth was started by Americans unable to accept that those Nips could build a better plane than theirs- and in the early part of the war, the Zero was superior to anything the allies had. 

 

The western world chose to ignore the rapid advances in aircraft technology being made in Japan, even when, in the interwar years, a pair of streamlined Japanese planes flew around the globe to show off their prowess.

Like any designer, Horikoshi incorporated the latest advances from all over the world as he created the Type O.

Western components like the cannons were built under licence or improved upon, but the overall design was his and was a monumental achievement considering rival firms gave up and and said it couldn't be done.

 

[willedoo]

There's certainly nothing like a war to drive technology. You just have to look at the rapid advances the Germans made in that period. In the first year of the Spanish Civil War, the Soviet I-16 was the world's most advanced fighter and knocked the German aircraft out of the sky like a turkey shoot. Then they came up with the Bf-109 and the rest is history.

[willedoo]

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

Caterpillar were selling tractors in Japan in the mid-1920's - but surprisingly, the Japs never cottoned on to the great benefits of earthmoving equipment before WW2, and that is where the Americans won hands-down by producing earthmovers in such numbers, that they could construct an operating airfield from raw ground in 3 days, as they did in the invasion of Italy.

In PNG, the Allies were stunned to find the Japs relying on local labour for hand-clearing for airfield construction, and hauling dirt and stones by hand, to build and rebuild airstrips.

It's ironic that one of the best Cats ever made, the D7G, was made in Japan. Mitsubishi Cats, some people called them.

[old man emu]

7 hours ago, willedoo said:

There's certainly nothing like a war to drive technology

We saw that right from the start of WWl. In the four years, 1910-1914 aircraft design and performance crawled along, but from January 1915 to December 1918 it improved exponentially (took off like a rocket). Tanks were invented. Submarines also improved greatly. Basically the same happened in WWll with weaponry, but we must also look at the great strides in electronics including computers and radar. Even the most mundane things, like military ration packs were boosted by the needs of WWll. And we must not forget the medical advancements - disease prevention, post-operative recovery, even plastic surgery for the restoration of burn damage.

[onetrack]

Willedoo - Yes, few people know about the substantial American investment and co-operation in Japanese industry. The Clark Equipment Company was the first to move into Japan in 1957, with a joint venture with the Taiyo Corporation.

The name on the Japanese-built TCM forklifts and other TCM products we see today, comes from "Taiyo-Clark-Michigan" - indicating the origins of the TCM products.

 

Caterpillar moved into Japan in 1963, in a joint venture with Mitsubishi. The JV company was called Shin Caterpillar Mitsubishi, and they manufactured large numbers of Cat machines, under licence from Cat.

I bought 2 Cat D6C dozers new, one in 1966 and one in 1968. The first one was built in Australia (at the Cat factory in Tullamarine) and the second one was built in Japan. My current little project, the Cat 931B track loader, was built in Japan.

 

Many people fail to grasp the colossal size of Mitsubishi Corporation. You name it, Mitsubishi are part of it - real estate, finance, energy generation and energy products trading, petrochemicals, food production, manufacturing of machinery - Mitsubishi own hundreds of well-known brands.

Few people know that Mitsubishi own Isuzu. It is Japan's largest "Keiretsu" - the fully integrated and interlocking Trading Houses of Japan, that controls vast swathes of industry, business, and essential supplies.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1992-03-09-9201220510-story.html

Edited August 11, 2020 by onetrack

[willedoo]

Thanks onetrack; I didn't know Japan made D6C's.

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

...Many people fail to grasp the colossal size of Mitsubishi Corporation. You name it, Mitsubishi are part of it - real estate, finance, energy generation and energy products trading, petrochemicals, food production, manufacturing of machinery - Mitsubishi own hundreds of well-known brands.

Few people know that Mitsubishi own Isuzu. It is Japan's largest "Keiretsu" - the fully integrated and interlocking Trading Houses of Japan, that controls vast swathes of industry, business, and essential supplies.

 

It's surprising that Mitsubishi survived MacArthur's attempts to break up the 'big four" Zaibatsu that profited most from Japan's wars. Much smaller arms-makers like Nakajima were destroyed; Subaru is all that's left.

The Keiretsu are the remnants of these Zaibatsu-  powerful family conglomerates that rapidly industrialised Japan. Although MacArthur tried to dismantled them, the Americans found them to be useful bulwarks against communism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu

[Bruce Tuncks]

It would have been really stupid for the Japanese to repeat Western mistakes. Of course they learned from the best. 

How interesting that they didn't copy the spitfire huh.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Once, in the Winellie aircraft museum, I showed my mother-in -law some bits of a Zero, commenting on the quality of the construction. "Nonsense", was her reply "they were crude things made from sticks and rags"

That was her education from being a teen during the war. How it still dictated her thinking after 50 years is amazing.

[Yenn]

Our Qld. government has just passed legislation banning media reporters giving details of accusations against politicians during election times.

Surely we should have accusations of corruption or other offences made known to us, but I can see why this legislation was passed.

In the last year or so there has been a spate of accusations brought against well known people. Several well known actors have been accused of sexual offences and later the accusations are dropped or just forgotten about. In the mean time the accused person has had their life just about destroyed. One actor has had a multi million payout from the courts, because the accusations were not proven.

It is time for all people to be protected from false accusations. Not political aspirants in the lead up to an election.

What the new legislation shows is that our politicians are dead set on looking after themselves, while they can smear others with no risk of retribution. What the legislation should have done was ensure that if someone was accused of a wrong doing and they were not taken to court and found guilty, then the accuser should be held responsible for any problems caused to the accused.

It was for a while practically a daily occurrence to see accusations against people. Sometimes the accusations were not even something that was illegal, but the person was smeared anyway. Maybe the only good thing about Covid is that these allegations seem to have been overtaken by media covid hype.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I hate restrictions on journalists. But an allegation just before an election is a nasty thing to do and it may be all lies.

What about if the accused had the right of reply? In the same paper, as prominent as the accuser's story.

[old man emu]

58 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

What about if the accused had the right of reply?

It's too late once the mud has been thrown at the wall. The idea that "where's there's smoke there's fire" ensures that the wall is forever stained, even if the mud is removed.

 

In New South Wales we have this in our Crimes Act:

Part 7 Public justice offences: Division 2 Interference with the administration of justice

314   False accusations etc

A person who makes an accusation intending a person to be the subject of an investigation of an offence, knowing that other person to be innocent of the offence, is liable to imprisonment for 7 years.

 

Similar offences would appear in the criminal law elsewhere in the country. It is a law that is rarely used, even in minor matters, especially false accusation of Domestic Violence.

[Yenn]

I heard today that the legislation was not passed. maybe sanity prevailed.