Our Nation has been sold down the river

[nomadpete]

Octave, we can cut each other's lawns, and serve each other coffee's until the cows come home but that is a closed loop. If the country wants to earn an income to pay our international bills, we have to manufacture something to sell to other countries.

Otherwise we can't afford to buy products from other countries.

We must value add to our raw materials, or we won't get ahead.

[nomadpete]

You don't know how many 'industrial' workers in that queue were casual workers in a support industry. Which comes back to being a service provider, not a producer.

I'm not denigrating any particular group of worker, it's just that our whole economy revolves around temporary employment, and our only national income comes from holes in the ground.

[nomadpete]

As far as I know the gas drillers out past Roma are still drilling. That's an area of production (as opposed to service provision) that is not (at present) out of work. So they aren't in the Centrelink queue.

[willedoo]

The oil will probably slow down with the low price, but gas might stay productive due to most of it being long term contract exports.

[octave]

Octave, we can cut each other's lawns, and serve each other coffee's until the cows come home but that is a closed loop. If the country wants to earn an income to pay our international bills, we have to manufacture something to sell to other countries.

Otherwise we can't afford to buy products from other countries.

We must value add to our raw materials, or we won't get ahead.

 

Foreign income is essential, no argument about that but that income must then move efficiently through society. To simplify the argument, I teach music, clearly a service industry. This work allows me to purchase a car made of steel. The company that built the car for me had to buy the raw materials most likely from Australia. Again massively oversimplifying it I created that market (buy buying a car) for the raw materials.

 

Granted we can't as you say survive by selling things (whether goods or services) to each other, we require foreign income. I really don't understand the distinction between producing a solid object and providing a service in terms of foreign income.

 

Tourism and education alone make up a huge proportion of our export dollars as well as other services.

Of course in a crisis situation some services become less valuable but this also applies to goods.

In terms of Australia's economic future it comes down to what we have that people overseas want to buy whether it is a solid object or a service. Fortunately I don't need to line up at centrelink because I can sell my services online and I still have customers.

[old man emu]

This Economy stuff is very complicated.

 

I really don't understand the distinction between producing a solid object and providing a service in terms of foreign income. Tourism and education alone make up a huge proportion of our export dollars as well as other services.

 

I'll accept that it's true that tourism and education pour money into the country, but look what has happened to that input when the borders have been shut. It points to a large unsustainable hole in our economy.

[facthunter]

One or the other doesn't express the reality. What is a teacher classified as? Educating the masses is the greatest need of a civilised society after the people producers have done their damage by producing more children than the world can carry. Nev

[pmccarthy]

I like the distinction between producers and non-producers.

To many in the mining industry, barristas, elected officials and public servants are all non-producers.

But ask a miner - he will tell you that supervisors and management at his own mine are all non-producers.

[octave]

I'll accept that it's true that tourism and education pour money into the country, but look what has happened to that input when the borders have been shut. It points to a large unsustainable hole in our economy.

 

 

Whether or not something produces foreign income given these present circumstances is not necessarily whether it is an solid object or a service Education is going online in the short term and possibly may continue to do this in future. As a country we need to sell the products of our bodies and our brains. I think this is my main point. Dollars earned from our brain are not necessarily inferior (I don't think this is what you are saying) or less reliable in an upheaval like this.

 

I think a list a products (physical or intellectual) that are at this very moment bringing money into the country could be surprising. It is true that at the moment the tourism sector would not be bringing in much money, when this is over and people regain confidence there will pent up demand.

 

During crisis some products or services are greatly reduced whilst other are expanded, this is especially true during wartime. We surely want an economy that is not on a war footing all the time but can adapt.

 

Perhaps what is good for the economy at times like this is a business that sells things overseas and is unaffected by this current crisis.

 

My son has a computer games development company with a very successful game and has around 10 employees who are all working from home at the moment. The sales are pretty much all from overseas. Not only is he still paying large amounts of tax, his sales have increased due to people being bored and confined. Alas he has become a Kiwi so no longer paying taxes to our government.

 

 

I am not necessarily totally disagreeing but I think there is (not saying anyone here thinks this) a romantic notion that we can go back to the old economy of perhaps the 50s.

[Yenn]

Back to basics. We used to produce manufactured items, but with government help and chasing the cheapest goods that has all gone.

The government has lived off iron ore and coal sales and kept our dollar low for years, they have also kept the inflation rate down and caused returns from money saved to be negligible. They have pushed the economy towards tourism and higher education for foreigners to such an extent that we are now a basket case.

This virus is the tipping point and we were not prepared for it. Now many people are likely to go broke, unless government steps in and supports them.

As a pensioner I am aware that the government is going to give me a one off payment of $750, supposedly.

I don't know what I am supposed to do with it and I doubt that the majority of those receiving it will spend it in their local shops. I am sure that there could be a better use for that money.

[old man emu]

I am not necessarily totally disagreeing but I think there is (not saying anyone here thinks this) a romantic notion that we can go back to the old economy of perhaps the 50s.

 

The question is, "Whose 1950's economy do we go back to?" Definitely not the Primary Industries based economy that carried us through the 1950's and towards the 1970's. Don't forget that during most of that 20 years we had the massive infrastructure development of the Snowy Mountains.

 

You can easily say that there is more infrastructure development going on at present across Australia than back then, and you'd be right. But back then, the work was done by the Government and supervised by engineers and such who were government employees. As a result, a tight rein was kept on estimates and actual expenditure. Now all this infrastructure work is done under contract with each supplier of goods or services padding the bill. And after all costs have been met by the contractors, where does the profit go?

 

These overseas companies have taken the cream from the Australian economy for years and as soon as they find better deal with a Third World country they drop Australia like a hot potato, make things cheaply there, then send the finished product back to be sold at outrageous make-ups.

 

Who's 1950's economy should we go back to? A progressive one like the USA where manufacturing products ans selling them is the backbone of their economy, not waiting tables and changing bed linen.

[octave]

Government and supervised by engineers and such who were government employees. As a result, a tight rein was kept on estimates and actual expenditure.

 

I don't have direct knowledge of this so I will take it as true however having spent time in the RAAF I can tell you that suppliers would charge extra for items supplied to the RAAF, I am not talking about military spec but off the shelf items (1980s)

 

These overseas companies have taken the cream from the Australian economy for years and as soon as they find better deal with a Third World country they drop Australia like a hot potato, make things cheaply there, then send the finished product back to be sold at outrageous make-ups.

 

Can't disagree with this.

 

Who's 1950's economy should we go back to? A progressive one like the USA where manufacturing products ans selling them is the backbone of their economy, not waiting tables and changing bed linen.

 

OK progresive like the USA . At this point in time we have a perfect test, will the economy of the US fair better than the Economy of Australia. In the past has the US weathered economic storms such as the 2007-2008 crash better than Australia? Did more people lose their houses here or in the US? Which country has the higher standard of living for the average working family?

 

Not waiting tables and changing bed linen? I really don't understand this point. Let's take Joe and Freya, they are a couple, they both work in the mining industry. Joe and Freya work hard and when they get home the last thing they want to do is cook a meal. Joe and Freya go to the local restaurant for dinner although some nights they order a takeaway delivery. On the weekend Joe and Freya like to go out for a coffee perhaps sometimes breakfast. The fact is that surrounding the big export industries are smaller support industries that allow Joe and Freya to be able to produce the exports. On saturday night Joe and Freya attend a partner swapping party - true story!

 

When I was in the RAAF as a musician we use to travel around to each base with the Chief of Air Staff. He would make the same speech, I can almost remember it word for word. "it doesn't matter whether you are a cook a doctor and air traffic controller and general hand you are part of the team the puts the bomb on the target. A coffee shop is part of the mechanism that sells those good wholesome physical widgets (and those nasty services) that we rely upon to balance the national budget.

 

OK now i am going to be opinionated and probably controversial (tis shiraz hour)

 

The notion that the past was economically better than the present is at least to me had to accept, although I accept that my experience and that of my peers may not be typical (but I think it is).

 

My parents grew up in England during the war and were poor (yorkshire so imagine pythons yorkshire man sketch). The average working person at that time was poor. My father joined the Royal Navy in order to escape poverty (1949) To cut a long (and probably mind numbingly boring) story short) After my birth my family migrated to Australia for a better life. My parents were able to buy a 3 bedroom by them both working 48 hours a week. My father retired at 65 with no super although able to travel and enjoy life and the pension. My father is now 92 and probably in his last days weeks or months (he is a tough old bugger and keeps outliving medical opinion). Whenever we visit he will look over at my mother and sat "we have had a good life haven't we?"

 

My life has been significantly easier and more profitable for less work than my parents. Something I joke about is that I have managed to never work hard in my whole life. My first house involved an interest rate of 14% but two wages helped to significantly reduce this debt. Ever since then I have gradually down sold to the point where the work I do is mainly for my own amusement.

 

My son has taken advantage of the new economies (you know the ones the oldies don't understand). My son at 30 owns his house outright, has a lovely yacht that he takes me out on when we visit (lives in NZ ) a top of the line Tesla (which on my last visit I dented) He works doing what he loves.

 

I am not suggesting that life is easy but if a lazy fuckwit like me can survive economically, I wonder why others think life today is so difficult .I guess I have either been lucky or skilled at making good choices, probably a little from column A and a little from column B.

 

 

So what is so bad about today's economy and what makes it worse than before?

[Marty_d]

I like that you managed to slip "fuckwit" past the censors.

 

Yes we are looking at decades of economic impact from this, but it is a "black swan" event and whether we were still producing Commodores or not, the dole queues would be just as long.

[nomadpete]

So, is China using the western 1950's approach? It seems to work for them. Maybe we should re-learn from them. They are manufacturing, and selling to other countries to build their home economy. Much of this industry comes from piece work in smaller factories, often cottage industries, supplying bigger assembly companies. I just bought a tractor which was built that way. Yes, there are numerous large showcase companies that use advanced robotics, too. Back in the 1960's (I'm too young to recall 1950) we had such diversified manufacturing. We had cutting edge stuff, too. I recall looking at 'clean rooms' where lab coated workers made (yes they MADE) silicon semiconductors. Transistors! But without all that diversification, our people no longer have any option but to be part of this famous service based economy. The majority of jobs are casual barristers, etc.

[pmccarthy]

We will go back to a 1950s style economy but will have no say in what that looks like. It will involve modest homes, fewer cars, less technology in our homes. But more connection to local producers, home gardening, local holidays. I am excited about the possibilities for the environment, clear skies, wild animals. The changes will be greater than you have imagined. At last we are focussed on important things.

[nomadpete]

Enjoy the best of this temporary reprieve, Peter.

 

I fear that as soon as the worst has passed, the human race will quickly forget all about this little 'mummy slap' that mother nature has dealt us.

And everyone will go right back to believing that humans control nature.

[nomadpete]

We are slow learners, indeed.

[old man emu]

So, is China using the western 1950's approach? It seems to work for them. Maybe we should re-learn from them

 

China is just doing what Japan and Germany did after 1945. They got their industries up and running. That's just where Australia is further behind than Wall Walla ( the 1930s pacer who won from seemingly impossible positions after conceding huge starts in handicap races. We never had a strong industrial manufacturing base before 1939, so that when people returned to civilian life, there was nothing much to restart. We still considered ourselves primary product exporters to those countries who had manufactured goods to trade. Our population in 1948 was only 7.75 million, hardly a critical mass for manufactured goods.

[nomadpete]

In this modern world economy, I don't believe that our population numbers matter as much as they once did. Nowadays it is a case of good R&D, buying the best automation, and arranging the best logistics to export the finished product. It's the export market for value added products (by Australian owned businesses) that will generate the best national income. Vastly better for our bottom line than the present mining. It's doable if there are any long sighted investors around.

[Yenn]

So what are we value adding to.

Akubra hats.

Drizabone coats.

Aluminium.

I have run out of products.

Just thought Bundy Rum

[old man emu]

So what are we value adding to.

 

There is a wide range of new products that have been developed in Australia and are being exported world wide. My son is involved with the sale of an Australian invented sanitizing material that is currently being exported to Japan and England. Here's a short list of Australian inventions: 20 Australian inventions that changed the world

 

What about the Sunshine Harvester and stump jump plough?

[pmccarthy]

But not the Hills Hoist, it was invented by a Mr Hill in America around 1900. Our Aussie Mr Hill was a good marketer. As was the Victa mower man, with an invention from the USA.

[old man emu]

Isn't that what competition is? Steal someone else's idea and get it into production.

[nomadpete]

We pretty much fail on the last part of that, in spite of the shining examples of R&D ('inventions')

[facthunter]

Like in every recession some will rake in a benefit and the majority lose nearly everything. 1950 s on were on the sheeps Back.. When Tamworth had more Rollers than Toorak and most Cockeys had a new Cessna. Nev.