Covid-19... the upsides

[pmccarthy]

1963 is 57 years ago. Imagine what you would have thought in 1963 if your grandfather had said the best songs were in 1906. By the way, I agree about 1963. I heard them on the radio in our school bus on my two hour each way trip, the wireless at home was locked on the ABC.

[old man emu]

https://tsort.info/music/yr1906.htm

[pmccarthy]

https://tsort.info/music/yr1906.htm

Surprising how many of them that I know of.

[Old Koreelah]

1963 is 57 years ago. Imagine what you would have thought in 1963 if your grandfather had said the best songs were in 1906...

The early 60s music was great, but it led to a huge flowering of musical creativity in the following decades (as well as some aweful noise). I used to enjoy walking past "The Cave" a room we set aside for our Year 12 students to do their own thing. Every few years they'd suddenly "discover" some great music from the good old days and claim it for their own.

[old man emu]

It's an ill wind that blows no man any good.

 

If you are a Bank CEO, you must be rubbing your hands with glee over what C-19 protection methods have brought - a cashless society. Retailers are asking customers to use their cards instead of cash as a measure to contain the spread of C-19, and the public is trying to do its best to comply. Unfortunately, nobody has advertised the fact that there is limit on the number of free "tap'n'go" transactions per card per month. Go over that limit and "per transaction" fees start to pile up. As Fagin says, "You've got to pick a pocket or two."

 

As for preventing the spread of C-19, how often are those EFPOS card readers disinfected? If you don't tap'n'go, but swipe, you have to handle the reader while you enter your PIN.

Edited May 28, 2020 by old man emu

[octave]

I have hardly used cash few for a few years now. I pay for everything with my credit card, even small items. Every friday I pay my credit card and we record where we spend our money. Using my my credit card doesn't cost me except for a yearly fee of $50, I don't pay interest because debt is only there for one week. The yearly fee is more than compensated by the reward points which I use to get bunnings vouchers, $50 about 4 or 5 times a year.

Most of my transactions are under $100. Our grocery shopping is done online. Using tap and go does markedly reduce contact so I would imagine over a whole society would make a difference. Other than that these days I just find carrying cash to be a pain.

 

Tap and go removes the situation where a worker may handle food or cutlery etc after they have handled money from the last customer. Money is constantly going through many hands. I know a cafe owner who hates having to take cash from the few customers who still use it. The need to ensure that they have a float on hand to make up change.

[old man emu]

I got away from "credit" cards a long time ago and went to "debit" cards. It's my money that I'm using (Oops! - It's my money that SWMBO allows me to use).

 

Using my my credit card doesn't cost me except for a yearly fee of $50, I don't pay interest because debt is only there for one week.

But what about transaction fees? Surely you don't have unlimited usage without fees?

 

Speaking of small purchases. It annoys me to use the card for anything under $5. I'm taking my grandson out this afternoon for a milkshake and donut. I don't want to use my card to pay what that will cost. Later I'll be buying a 12V ON/OFF switch. I'd rather pay cash for that than use a card. The other thing is that when I use cash I come home with coins which I throw in a container. It doesn't take long for those coins to make up sixty to seventy dollars which I can put back into my bank account.

[octave]

But what about transaction fees? Surely you don't have unlimited usage without fees?

 

Yep, or at least enough that I don't reach that point. The 2 fees are interest if I were to go beyond the interest free limit (never done -they must hate us) and $50 a year. The very reason I started doing it this way was to save transaction fees. It is efficient to use my credit card not only from a fees perspective but it also means we retain a record of every cent we spend. in fact we have just payed our credit card off for the week. Every friday we do what we refer to as "the reckoning" I read out from our online credit card statement the last weeks spend and my wife puts it into a spreadsheet and will then give me the amounts to pay from each account. I do this instantly so we don't forget to do it. Another benefit is in future budgeting, we know exactly what we spend and where.

[old man emu]

My wife regularly goes over the card statement to see where I have spent money

 

And then the fight begins.

[octave]

My wife regularly goes over the card statement to see where I have spent money

 

And then the fight begins.

 

Hah yep, that is an interesting side effect is that there is no secret spending, not a problem for us but it does make you think sometimes before spending.

[red750]

Some places have a minimum spend for credit AND debit cards, although that is reducing. Other places add a surcharge to use cards, eg the pizza shop charges an extra $2 if you pay by card.

[Marty_d]

My wife regularly goes over the card statement to see where I have spent money

 

And then the fight begins.

I start to see why you prefer cash...

 

As for preventing the spread of C-19, how often are those EFPOS card readers disinfected? If you don't tap'n'go, but swipe, you have to handle the reader while you enter your PIN.

IF you don't tap & go... most credit cards (all?) have the chip which allows tap & go. I was surprised to notice the other day that they've raised the limit without PIN to $200 (used to be 100). Some grocery shops here have plexiglas shields between checkout operator and customer, and they even hold the card reader up to their side and you tap yours to the other side of the shield. Reads it fine.

[Jerry_Atrick]

@octave - while you're able to make use of the credit card, my guess is there are quite a few million who can't for whatever reason and if debit cards are their only payment method, they they will be paying the fees. Personally, I think the government should outlaw debit card usage fees - they are far cheaper for the banks to handle than cash and as cash is central to society and banks central to the use of cash, that people lower down the financial rungs of society pay the most. Also, there are many that don't have your discipline, know it and opt out of using credit cards to stop themselves getting into trouble - and they too are unnecesarily paying..

 

I have, on these fora, defended some of the seemingly inappropriaste charges banks apply because of hidden costs we don't see - mainly around prudential regulation, but other regs also apply. For example, under the Consumer Credit Act, credit card providers must refund the customer if the business does not deliver the good or service. This is the reason we always book flights and buy anything online with credit cards - no more farting about with the provider - quick call to the credit card provider and, with the excpetion of one notable institution, it's a relatively painless process to get your money back. So I get the higher interest rates. But debit card transactional fees is one cost that the government allows the banks to make a small fortune from for no real value and reduced cost compared to cash.

 

When I first came to the UK, everyday retail and small business transactional banking was free. But, when I went to transfer money to a retailer's account, I learned it was a three day process. Aha! That is how they make their money. Hodl your money for a couple of days, make some interest on the wholesale money markets and then transfer the money (rarely does the money physically transfer between banks - even for international payments). But the government put a stop to that about.. maybe 10 years ago. During the public consultation, the banks were calling it an end to transaction free banking to require instant transfer of money through anything other than BACS (BECS in Aus) or CHAPS, each of which had a £20 charge. The government pressed ahead and not one bank introduced transactional fees.. and the retail/commercial banks are doing fine thank you very much...

 

Now, I know the UK has a bigger population and smaller area, but at the end of the day (as I pointed out to the business head of internet banking of an Aussie bank I worked at), they are just moving a few electrons around for each transaction. Yes, the payments company (is it still EFTPOS?) is taking its bit and the sponsor bank is taking its bit, but those costs are usually borne by the merchant. To me transactional charges to the retail customer (at least through eftpost) is double dipping.

 

<rant over>

[octave]

while you're able to make use of the credit card, my guess is there are quite a few million who can't for whatever reason

Yep I accept that. I do realize that my transactions are subsidised by those who pay interest because they don't pay it off soon enough.

 

I am not trying to tell people how to organize their finances just pointing out what I do.

 

I believe physical cash will disappear because it is just too cumbersome. It is rather like a video hire shop, most people would rather get this content without having to jump in the car and physically transport it home and then take it back after.

 

I am self employed (part time these days, I am phasing out) I really don't like it when I am paid cash. I think sometimes they think they are doing me a favour tax wise but I do declare everything to the tax man. This is totally true, I have a music student who insists on paying me cash (until I shifted to online teaching) I have in my desk draw about $700 in cash. It is not that I don't want to use that money but I have a great system of accounting that relies upon me using my credit card which costs me almost nothing and keeps a record for me. Good business practice (not that I adhere to that) would be to go down to the bank and deposit it which is costly in terms of time and effort.

 

Some of the work I do is for a music studio and I know for a fact that the owner does not like people paying in cash. Imagine week 1 of the term each of the 700 students paying $400 in cash. i don't know what cut the credit card company takes from him but this has to be weighed up against the hassle of securing and banking that money.

 

Yes organisations take a cut on the way through but what we get from that is at the very least saving a trip to the bank. Speaking of which my elderly mother likes to send me some money a couple of times a year, she wants me to have some of my inheritance before she dies. We are not talking large sums of money here. I would never be ungrateful but it will arrive by cheque. Luckily now I can bank this online, although the process can be fiddly. In the recent past though this has meant a trip to the bank and because it is an irregular occurrence I don't even remember what the process is. My mother is almost 90 and quite frail and my father is perhaps days or weeks from the end. Although they live interstate we have been helping as much as possible. The frustrating thing,although we are understanding and patient, is that we are helping her manage her financial affairs. The problem is that it becomes difficult when she believes that the only way to pay a bill is to get a taxi to the bank and then go to the post office to hand over the cash. This has reinforced our decision to move with the times.

 

As nearly all of my pay and my wife's super comes straight into our bank account I see no logical reason to go down to the bank and draw the money out and carry it around.

[willedoo]

It's interesting. When cash is eventually phased out, I wonder how the black market will get by. On a big scale, maybe something like bitcoin, but for the average unsophisticated drug dealer it will be interesting to see what trade medium is used.

[spacesailor]

Octave.

Some of us Oldies, a trip to our Frendly bank, and postoffice for a nice chat is a day,s outing.

On with our glad-rags, a day outside the house. Hooray !.

( WITH A JINGLE IN OUR POCKETS ).

spacesailor

Edited May 29, 2020 by Guest

[octave]

Octave.

Some of us Oldies, a trip to our Frendly bank, and postoffice for a nice chat is a day,s outing.

On with our glad-rags, a day outside the house. Hooray !.

( WITH A JINGLE IN OUR POCKETS ).

spacesailor

No problem with that at all, these services should be kept as long as possible for the oldies. In my mothers case she is very frail and does not really want to pay for a taxi but she just doesnt think there is any other way.

[willedoo]

So what happens in the future? At some point coin collections will give way to bank statement collections. Your entire collection could fit on a thumb drive.

[Marty_d]

Cash is bloody annoying. I was always trying to get change for the parking meters until they finally brought in the Easypark app. Then there's the horse riding lessons where the owner only does cash, so having to make sure we get out $35 each week (because she doesn't do change all that well either!!)

 

Money is only a shared delusion anyway, it's not actually based on a pile of gold in a vault somewhere. As long as we all agree on its buying power then it doesn't really matter whether it's paper in your hand or electrons in a computer.

[spacesailor]

" At some point coin collections will give way to bank statement collections. "

 

AND that will play into the hand of Whoever is ruling the lowest classes !.

Never will they see money In any form again.

Back to the dark ages when the master gave a Chit ( of paper ) to buy whatever he needs, and the Serf's worked for Food and lodging, sleeping on the floor of the masters house, eating the master's scraps.

Kids Indentured to their employer for ten years. ( it was changed to Apprenticeship ).

spacesailor

[red750]

I haven't written a cheque in years. I pay all bills electronically (bPay or direct debit). My former cardiologist, now retired, didn't even have an EFTPOS machine. Mailed out a bill after the consult. At least he put bank account details so I could pay by EFT. His consulting rooms were at Knox Private Hospital but his office was in Heidelberg. I very rarely darken the doorstep of a bank these days (after having worked for a bank for 30 years). If I need cash for those businesses I mentioned above who insist in minimum purchase or pay a surcharge, I go to Woolies self serve checkouts and withdraw the required cash. What annoys me is the lotto shops, who have a minimum spend of $15 for a free card transaction, when the small Lotto tickets cost less than $15. You've got to buy a couple of scratchies to make up the difference.

[Jerry_Atrick]

@octave - I wasn't having a go at you.. I firly had the Aussie banks debit/savings accoutn transaction fees in my sights.. and charing them because they have to steer clear or credit cards or can't get them means they pay heaps more than you or I do.. unnecessarily.. How the government let them get away with it is mind boggling.. But, I do agree.. I think cash is on its way out. I use my card (and others Apple or Goole pay or whatever else is out there) for tiny transactions. Shopkeepers love it as (over here anyway), it has a tiny cost; police love it as miraculously - there are a lot fewer aggravated hold ups, the banks love it because they don't need to employ as many people.. and people love it because they don't have to faff about. Although, after a good evening out with the mates, one sometimes longs for cash as it is too easy to present a card and not see what is leaving the account.

 

@willedoo - over here, they are trialling some form of card readers for vagrants or at least Timeout sellers.. I have often thought they will be the ones who suffer.. although.. they may in the long run benefit. No reason why the black market can't get card readers.. It still isn't too ard to circumvent ant-money laundering rules. .

 

@spacesailor - I hear you.. Although about 16 years ago when I was starting with the Aussie bank on their internet banking system (which even by today's standards was poop-hot), the bank's philosophy was to provide a personal service - where people can walk in, speak to real tellers and even wanted to maintain passbooks - remember those! They pioneered a branch model that had the best chance of success in the new world - though if I was involved in one of those branches today, I would be a little worried. But the reality is, it cost a effin lot of money to keep them going. And if more and more people are moving online/digital, then, well, as banks aren't charities (although they can beg like them when they need to), there will comea time when the trip to the milk bar will have to suffice. I don't like it and I think that tech is now providing a disabler rather than enabler... but it is the brave new world.

 

@red750 - never had the pleasure of working in a branch - but I understand why you would never, ever want to return ;-)

[octave]

@octave - I wasn't having a go at you..

 

I didn't take it that way at all, it just occurred to me that I might be sounding like I was trying to tell people what they should be doing.

 

On a more frivolous note, at the beginning of this year I dispensed with carrying a wallet and now only carry my phone with a couple of credit cards. It may seem trivial but every pair of trousers I have owned in the last 40 something years have began to fail at the back pocket due to my wallet. I must admit after 40 odd years of doing the pat down when leaving the house it was a little challenging. I still sometimes get a little surge of adrenaline when I realize my back pocket is empty.

 

With having to look after my very elderly parents interstate I have realized that their life is made much harder by not adopting new methods of doing things. I understand that it can be difficult for older folk to keep up and I can relate to it but I try to force myself to keep up.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Guest

[old man emu]

In many ways we only have ourselves to blame for being nostalgic for the 'good old days'. It's basically a case of trying to teach old dogs new tricks, except what we have are not tricks but social evolution. Just think back to the year 2000. How many of us were chatting to people from all over the country and overseas on a daily basis? Noe, for some of use, it's part of our daily routine, that can't be omitted.

 

What we have is a case of "you don't have to like it, but you have to accept it".

[Red]

I'm anti-social and don't get on with crowds so the whole lockdown thing has not brought much mental anguish my way in fact its made things a lot less stressful