War Crimes

[Yenn]

The ABC is once again having a go at the SAS. Accusing them of murdering an Afghan un armed civilian.

Maybe it was a war crime but the biggest war criminal of all Australians has to be John Howard, who started a war in Iraq. Blind Freddy could see it was a put up job with Bush and Blair. It put our military into the area with no visible enemy, with rules of engagement that would ensure they were killed and all for a stupid idea that we agree with everything that the Yanks want.

Our military should not be in Afghanistan or anywhere else in the Middle East, they definitely should not be fighting with one arm tied behind their back as is the case now.

[octave]

The ABC is once again having a go at the SAS. Accusing them of murdering an Afghan un armed civilian.

Maybe it was a war crime but the biggest war criminal of all Australians has to be John Howard, who started a war in Iraq. Blind Freddy could see it was a put up job with Bush and Blair. It put our military into the area with no visible enemy, with rules of engagement that would ensure they were killed and all for a stupid idea that we agree with everything that the Yanks want.

Our military should not be in Afghanistan or anywhere else in the Middle East, they definitely should not be fighting with one arm tied behind their back as is the case now.

 

 

No it is not the ABC alone "accusing" even the conservative media is quite rightly revolted by this. There can be no more conservative commentator than Andrew Bolt - "According to Sky News host Andrew Bolt, the investigation of such a large number of potential war crimes indicates the possibility of a “sick culture” present within the ADF."

 

and Andrew Hastie conservative politician and ex military officer) said this - “We do uphold the rule of law, we have a western culture and at the heart of that is the 'just war tradition' and we have certain standards that we apply off the battlefield and on the battlefield”.

 

This atrocity in my view is the act of a traitor (amongst other things) this event will endanger the lives of our soldiers and is a great recruiting tool for terrorism.

 

To say that it is the ABC accusing is nonsense. Other media both left centre and right are reporting this event and the military are investigating.

 

I do agree that they should not have been there in the first place however the SAS is known for it's discipline and professionalism. We make much, especially around ANZAC day" to proclaim the exceptional qualities of the Australian soldier but perhaps it is not true.

[old man emu]

Why does everyone think Australia owes the USA anything?

 

Oh! But they saved Australia from invasion in 1942. Wrong. Japanese documents show that they did not want to invade Australia. They just wanted to reduce its value as a warehouse and staging post for the USA. That's why the Japanese and German submarines patrolled off our coast.

 

The great US military hero denigrated our troops on the Kokoda Track (who at the time were undertrained militia men - not regular army). As soon as American troops were up to strength, he sent them to Bougainville to secure a section of the island. Which they did for 12 months at great cost. However, as soon as the Americans started to win back islands closer to Japan, he pulled US troops out of Bougainville and left it to the Australians to mop up the isolated and starving Japanese troops.

 

From the 1950's, Conservative governments of Australia, at the behest of the USA,have consistently sent Australian troops with the sole aim to kill the local "anti-democracy" forces. None of this fighting has been to obtain one iota of security for Australians.

[onetrack]

The rules of engagement in the Vietnam War were simple, and they were drummed into every soldier when I was in the Green Machine in the 1960's.

 

The RoE in defined war situations, authorises the application of, and defines the limitations on, the use of lethal force, to achieve an assigned mission.

 

But the ADF and SAS in Afghanistan were fighting a war that was worse than Vietnam, as regards trying to identify "enemy combatants".

 

One has to remember, in Afghanistan, Western forces are obliged to obey the Geneva Convention and RoE's. The Taliban have no inclination to obey any rules of War.

 

Under the RoE in Vietnam, an enemy combatant was identified by their clothing, by their carrying of firearms or other military weaponry - and one also obviously identified them, if they carried out obvious "hostile acts".

The VC wore generally wore "black pajamas", and the NVA generally wore NVA military uniforms, so it was moderately easy to identify enemy in VN.

However, there were always "enemy sympathisers" who wore neither, but who would help the VC and NVA to ambush and attack Australian troops.

 

If the suspected enemy combatant would not stop, when called upon to stop, you were authorised to use lethal force to make them stop.

But in every situation in Vietnam where a person was suspected to be an enemy combatant, it was drummed into us - "If in doubt, DO NOT SHOOT".

 

This also prevented "friendly fire" incidents, where occasionally, an Australian soldier would be mistaken for an enemy soldier, particularly in gloomy conditions.

Mistakes are prevalent under the pressure of potential combat - you have to be sure of what you're shooting at.

 

I can recall being on night picquet in a compound at a Night Defensive Position in the North of Phuoc Tuy Province during early 1971. The area was an absolute hotbed of VC and NVA activity.

I was on duty in the Command Post, an elevated bunker, at around 2:00AM, nursing an M60 fitted with a Starlight Scope (AN/PVS-2). It was a dark night with no moon, so the Starlight Scope wasn't exactly at its best.

The Starlight Scope was a wondrous American invention to us back then, but by todays standards, it would be primitive, to say the least.

 

I was studying the ground about 60-80M outside the compound wire perimeter (which wire was about 25M in front of me), when I was sure I spotted a number of poorly-defined figures moving about.

It was known that the VC and NVA would often test the defences of NDP's and Firebases by moving around outside the compounds to test the alertness of the sentries.

I sat and watched these poorly-defined figures moving back and forth, wondering all the time if I was seeing things, or if they were enemy, and whether I should challenge them, or just let loose with a burst of fire.

I thought about how they could possibly be setting up claymores, or mines, or boobytraps - or I could be just imagining them!

 

I watched these poorly-defined figures moving about, for maybe 15 mins, and took no action of any kind, and they just faded out of sight. I chose to utilise the, "do not shoot if in doubt", rule.

I am positive I saw enemy that night, but I have no idea to this day if they were actually enemy, or if they were just a figment of my imagination - or if they were civilians doing something simple and routine, such as cutting bamboo.

It was not unknown for Vietnamese civilians to move around after dark, doing regular jobs such as fetching water, going to work on plots of land, or cutting bamboo - even into areas that they had been warned off.

 

I certainly would not like to have been responsible for murdering innocent Vietnamese civilians, simply because I got trigger happy, and failed to follow RoE's.

 

As regards the killing of the hapless unarmed Afghan, I believe that particular soldier has overstepped his authority, and disobeyed RoE's.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-11/afghan-files-australias-secretive-rules-of-engagement/8496672

[Yenn]

I said the ABC is pursuing the army, because the ABC is my usual source of info. I did not mean to suggest that they were the only form of media involved.

My main argument is that our PM can send or troops to fight an illegal and immoral war. Not only can, but they have in Vietnam and again in Iraq. It is the politicians who should be pursued.

[old man emu]

An every Service person who returns should decry those who voted the war-mongers into power.