Is this the way that we can save the World?

[Methusala]

Every thinking person (and their dog) knows by now that the World is in the grips of a terrible malady. This is the greenhouse catastrophe and, regardless as to the major cause, we know that it is happening and threatens us and every other species of life.

We also are unavoidably aware that we must drastically reduce the emission of heat and CO2 in order to save our planet from a terminal degradation which will involve huge painful death to billions of people.

Up till now, the answer from the people in charge has been,"No way, this would be impossible to accomplish." However, in the space of a short few months, the world has demonstrated that this is not impossible, but quite to the contrary.

Undeniably, we would suffer much in the permanent conversion to a new economy. Our expectations will be trimmed, in some cases hugely. But life as we know it would continue and may become less stressful and more rewarding, knowing that the future had more to offer. It is worthwhile to think on this I think.

[onetrack]

The major questions in this New Economy will be - "What are we going to do with 25,000 commercial aircraft worth hundreds of billions of dollars? - and what are Boeing and Airbus employees going to do for income?"

 

It's interesting to ponder that the millions of employees in the mega-dollar tourism industry of the globe, are largely dependent on maybe 150,000 total employees of Boeing and Airbus, and maybe a few hundred thousand airline maintenance people.

 

And before you say that people will have to stop touring the world, you might like to see the figures for the countries that are highly dependent on tourism to survive.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/Mapped-The-countries-that-rely-most-on-your-money/

[facthunter]

When you get down to basics, Food supply and distribution medical care and shelter rate far above Tourism, Just because tourism has become as large as it has doesn't mean it's essential to ANY level. It's always had it's downsides and they have been swept aside.in most cases because of the pressure to accommodate the oversize demand$$$$'s and you can't eat money. Local tourism can replace a lot of International spending . Planes and Cruise ships are largely responsible for the situation we have now. OUR best is exported, WE don't see it or get to eat it. Nev

[Methusala]

you might like to see the figures for the countries that are highly dependent on tourism to survive.

Dear Onetrack (I can't use your real name so), Thanks for reading my post. I am guilty of indulging in world tourism (incl. the Maldives) so I have some experience. On our visit we lived on an inhabited, small island (.4 x 4km). Asking the natives about agriculture they replied that they didn't want or need to work. Grab a coconut, dig up some taro (looked after by the women) or jump into the sea for lobster, fish or prawns. Incidentally, the island was spoiled by a high watermark of plastic, mainly fresh water, bottles, metres wide completely encircling the shoreline. There was brackish water available from wells which was for non-potable use. With unlimited sunlight and wind, electricity could be used to power reverse-osmosis giving unlimited, pure water.

I don't underestimate that what I propose is an Herculean task. But what price the planet?

[onetrack]

It's a Herculean task, because you're asking a huge chunk of the global economy (and its people) to just abandon everything it and they have built up, and worked for, since the early 1950's - and to go find something else to do.

 

You cannot do this without a major global recession, and large numbers of countries having their economy fall into bankruptcy, because they had forward plans and major debts in place, to progress on those tourism industries and facilities already established.

You have to offer up plans for alternative income and projects for all those people displaced - and you have to figure out what to do with the abandoned tourism/travel facilities.

 

I do see a major re-alignment of many industries coming out of this - plus a widespread increase in protectionism and tighter border controls, including more disease-testing facilities.

 

It must be galling for Border Force and Quarantine to have been doing such good work to protect our nation from illegal imports that would damage our primary industries or see invasive species take over - only to have their work largely negated by the now-obvious idiocy of allowing infected cruise ship passengers and air travellers enter or re-enter the country with no health checks. Even the people of the 18th century were very aware of ship-borne diseases.

 

I reckon that will be one of the first things to change very soon, and you can look forward to permanent, intensive health checking, for anyone entering or re-entering Australia, in any manner.

 

Cheers, Ron.

[facthunter]

Lots of ships become DOGS fairly quickly. They can be repurposed as emergency accommodation hospital ships prisons or artificial reefs. Insurance will just about be the death knell of them after this. That sort of thing is the least of your worries. Airtravel hasn't addressed it's environmental costs ,and was due for a repricing and a few were already shaky. They majority are subsidised to a significant degree and were operating on very slim profit margins. with high turnovers. Extra Aerodrome proposed extensions can be shelved with a definite improvement on local quality of life (Noise and choked roads). Local infrastructure can serve local people and the rents will become affordable again. Tourism was ruining places like Venice where one DOES Venice in a day and the only real memory is a couple of postcards and a few selfies. The LOCALS cannot afford to live there. Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Interesting to see how the non-essential industries, like tourism, have been shown to be unnecessary.

We need to dissociate a living income from "work" by making the dole enough to really live on.

The Aborigines have been doing this for years. It is not an expectation that a school-leaving aborigine will do anything except start collecting welfare. And why is this a bad thing? I reckon its quite ok. What else would you have them do?

[Methusala]

The focus of this question,"Is This The Way That We Can Save The World?" is that, undeniably, ways must be found to change the current vector. We simply cannot continue to live as in the past without dooming the planet to a catastrophic and agonising dead end.

No doubt it will be an almost unbearable change to our current aspirations. What is the alternative if our kids and grandkids are to enjoy some kind of ambition and optimism. Dark days could be just around the corner.

I simply ask whether this is an opportunity to grasp from the ashes of the current decline in economic fortunes a new way of seeing the future. I would resist sounding like a preacher or prophet. More like a lateral thinking optimist.

PS The huge recession is already here. Can we make something life changing out of it rather than seeking to restore a parasitic and pathogenic system proven to have no bright future?

[Methusala]

We need to dissociate a living income from "work" by making the dole enough to really live on.

Great thinking Bruce. The idea of a UBI (universal basic income) would free a large number from the role of "wage slave" and those who have modest wants and tastes could enjoy persuits such as volunteering to re-vegitate and restore degraded environments or whatever in an altruistic ambition.

[onetrack]

You're going to have to get control of the rapacious global corporations and reign in their greed and outrageous salaries and renumeration, and monstrous, tax-dodge-driven perks, before you can have any chance of changing the current order of things.

The tax system needs a major overhaul, to make a level playing field between wage employees and companies - that can currently get huge tax breaks and incentives that are not available to the average worker.

 

Negative gearing needs to be abolished to stop over-investment in property and housing, that has driven an unsustainable rise in property values over the last 25 years.

All family homes need to be taxed, above a certain level of value - say $400,000-$500,000. The current tax laws see wealthy people on high incomes, pouring millions into additions and improvements to their "home", that they can then sell, and make huge tax-free, capital gains on.

 

Then they can move into another "family home" and do the same thing. What a rort. You ought to see the amount of "family homes" in my suburb that have been turned into 7 and 8 bedroom, 2 storey places, that still only hold 3 or 4 people.

They start off buying an old 3 bedroom home for maybe $600,000 - then add a second story, 4 more bedrooms, a home theatre, a pool, and what not - then sell it for $1.3M and pocket a huge capital gain, totally tax-free.

 

I've lived in the exact same old 3 bed home for 30 years and hopefully I'll be here another 20 yrs - and there's only the two of us, anyway.

It's probably gone up 6 times the amount of the purchase price since 1990, but that figure is academic anyway - it's our modest home, and we never intended it for to be a huge tax-free, capital gains win.

Maybe we need a "bedroom tax". Add 3 or 4 bedrooms to your house, get taxed accordingly. The whole tax system is simply unfair, and it's little wonder there's so much "cash" work done.

[pmccarthy]

Fix footy players salaries. Until you do that, all else is BS. If you can't do it, then don't pretend you can do anything else. A footy player is worth tops 100k a year. Multi millions? Forget it. Look at the worth of the person in our society.

[Yenn]

Talk of border force and letting cruise ships come in with disease makes me wonder what has happened to our rules.

It used to be that when a vessel came into Australia or any other country for that matter, that they had to anchor off and fly the yellow Q flag and request quarantine inspection. nobody was allowed off before the vessel had passed inspection.

Now we have the police looking at a cruise ships entry to see if any laws have been broken. They seem to want to blame the ships master and the owners, for saying that there was no covid 19 on board. Can the master and owners know if there was or wasn't nay disease, surely that was for the quarantine authorities to decide. Maybe in their wisdom, governments have decided they no longer needed the quarantine laws. I don't know and I haven't looked it up.

I see that Rugby players are asked to take a 60% drop in pay. I wonder what that will leave them with. World Rugby is thinking about lending Australia Rugby several millions, just so they can survive.

[Methusala]

I have heard a rumor that there was political influence around the decision to dock Ruby Princess. Don't know but feel some suspicion about the lack of clear answers after all this time. Don't shoot me...just a rumor. Don

[Jerry_Atrick]

Thread resurrection alert!

 

I recall this thread and the premise that we will foresake everything we have earned and have to return to being cavepeople in order to save the planet. Actually, if that is what it takes, then it is better than the alternative... But, apparently, the alternative isn't that difficult at all and forward thinking actually has little cost impact on the people. It however drives innovation as necessity, in the case of large corporations, minimising taxes, is the mother of all invention.

 

Stephen Fry has produced a short film about a simple trick that has proven to work.. and it doesn't inolve abandoning our life comforts... Unfortunately, Australia abandoned the simple trick, but of course, giving back to the people would have made it popular rather than unpopular, except to the polluting industries that seem to have a grip on Aussie politics.. sadly a weaker press doesn't seem to expose this and, well, you get the idea (the impact on Australia starts at about 13.5 minutes):

 

 

As for airline travel, it looks like its days are numbered as the main form of mass tranist, anyway.. there will always be a demand for it.. but probably more inter-continental than anywhere else. Yes, it will take time to happen - and with the forward thinking of Aussie pollies, Australia will probably be the last bastion of airlines... As for 150K employees of Boeing and Airbus (each), they will not all be let go, because their workforces are not limited to commerical aviation. They both make defence aircraft (not going anywhere, soon), they make satellites, they have big ciber-security and engineering practices as well.. So the number of employees employed directly on commercial airline manufacture is not that high.. It pales into insignificance compared to the new jobs that will be created as economie expand.. Although, not a silver bullet, we can have our tourism cake and eat it, too. With forward thinking, we can rundown to the level required to sustain long-term airline manufacture (already undergoing change with drones, hybrid, hydrogen and electric propulsion systems) and upskil the next generation to work in the new industries.

 

There's a long way to go.. The elephant in the room is the public shareholders in airlines, airports, etc. However, industries are always being disrupted and dhareholders losing. Pre-COVID, there was pressure on the bricks and mortar retailers, retail commercial property, and invetment banking as technology disrupts traditional industries. CDs and DVD's are still available, but so, too, is vinyl. Oil companies are pivoting as even the long term demands of that resource were reducing. Coal is being replaced, and gas should not be replacing it, except it represents a cheap alternative to coas mor energy generation.

 

I would love to see Australia and Britain jump into this.. it is a risk, yes, but without risk (and the odd failure), there is no reward...

Edited November 29, 2020 by Jerry_Atrick

[nomadpete]

How can we tell our political machine that it's "Time for a change"

 

I feel so helpless.

The present federal opposition is  just promoting one platform - and since they feel they got burnt last election by pushing climate, their current platform is ONLY  "jobs". (without telling us 'how')

If they integrate climate change stimulus with job promotion, they can get both. But as it stands, they just appear to have rolled over for the fossil industry, just like the incumbent party.

Thanks for the link to Stephen Fry's video.

Edited November 29, 2020 by nomadpete

[old man emu]

The fire has died in the belly of the Labor Party. Like the Liberals and Nationals it lacks any vision or plans for the future. The population is too content with its lot. As I have said before, we are a Nation of lotus eaters, who are getting to the point of not being worthy of being a vibrant, independent and progressive Nation. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Australia, the UK, the USA are very similar in culture compared to Northern Europe (makes me want to move to Europe.. May do so). Both are very short-termist. One difference, though.. America embracees risk for economic gain much less conservatively than Australia and Britain. When I was managing the engineering of a dot bomb start up in the very late 90s, people I were interviewing were proud to tell me of their entreprenuerial (sp?) exploits that failed to highlight the lessons they have learned. It was initially concerning, but the more I spoke to people, the more I came to realise that this is indeed a positive.

 

But despite that, we are short term consumers of crap.. We want bigger houses, bigger (or faster) cars, more plasticrap.. Jeez.. I look at the stuff we have.. 2 desktop computers, 3 ipads, 1 Android tablet, 4 smart phones.. 2 TVs, 2 laptops... What a complete waste.. Most of them are expensive games and chat devices and don't perform a 10th of the processing power they have (admittedly, 1 laptop is about 10 years old). When someting breaks, we are conditioned to thing it isn't worth the amount to fix it, throw it out nd spend 3 or 4 times the repair charge and buy a new one. Years ago, I was sitting on a flight from London to Chicago sat next an American woman returning from two years living in Germany. She regailed in telling me how progressive they were; how they wasted very little, yet were still an economic powerhouse. She was returning to the US and was going to try to implement what she learned in Germany about conserving resources, living more modestly with less, but better quality. She was of the opinion the US governent should fund every American to go and live in a [Western] European country for 6 months to learn how to do it. Sadly, Britain and Australia fall on the US side of the divide. When I left Aus for the second time in 2005, on a return trip 5 years later, I was shocked at the development of Melbourne's road system and outer suburbs in that short time; I have returned twice since, and am equally shocked.. A lot of that money should be poured into public transport, more ecologically firendly housing and closer communities - and education, because thatis the way to bridge the cultural divides and hopefullky stimulate more people to start becoming innovative.. It's a lot of work and everyone likes progress but few like change.

 

The difference between the US and Europe is that the US, this risk taking is almost solely for making money.. If it happens to help the climate, pollution, or humanity, it's a lucky side-effect. The fact that there is a market now for ecologically progressive ideas has people in the US jumping on the band-wagon. Yes, Australia and Britain are also involved has some developments in the mix (for example, a British company that is developing hyrdogen fuel cells and propulsion units for aircraft moved to the UK from the US because of favourable grants they could get), but as a culture, it is far more endemic in the US.

 

The other problem is democracy itself (or at least as it has manifested). In countries like Aus, Britain and the US, they focus is on the next election. At least the president knows he can't last more than 8 years so can plan further ahead knowing it will all end for him anyway... But with this short-term focus on elections, it is easier to say we are preserving and building jobs that we can see now than say build a new industry and see what happens. It is easier also for investment managers... they don't have to pickthe next big things if the disosaurs continue to roam around making profits..

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well said jerry. Here's my current complaint... I can't cope with the politically correct who have a lot to say about Aboriginals needing more money but ignore the things you mentioned.

Just today, the news was about: (1) Homeless people thrown out of hotels and back onto the street as the covid scare went down.

(2) How authorities turn a blind eye to the links between the big crown casino and organized crime... it seems we are addicted to the dirty money they provide.

(3) How hundreds of international students are returning to Australia, some of them bringing covid along with their money.

A few days ago, the story about how aboriginal women are  often brutally bashed by their men, surfaced for the first time in the 60 years that I have known about it .( I was told by a senior nurse at the Alice Springs hospital . She said that the bashed women had no avenue of complaint open to them)

But I don't want you to go to Europe, come here and help change things.

[nomadpete]

Bruce, although I didn't grow up in a Town Like Alice,  I seem to share many of your views regarding the damage being done by the  'indigenous industry' (perhaps call it gravy train).

You might like to read this article written by John Stone about his observations on CDEP, etc.

 

https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2008/09/aboriginal-employment-and-the-cdep/

[Old Koreelah]

On 11/04/2020 at 7:24 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

We need to dissociate a living income from "work" by making the dole enough to really live on.

I totally disagree, Bruce. Some countries report positive results from various Universal Basic Income trials, but I fear Australia is a different kettle of fish. We have a rapidly expanding class of welfare-dependent people with no apparent motivation to contribute to society. As this country emerges from the pandemic lockdown, many businesses are reporting that they cannot find suitable workers. Seems many of those potential workers are better off staying on the increased welfare payment.

On 11/04/2020 at 7:24 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

The Aborigines have been doing this for years. It is not an expectation that a school-leaving aborigine will do anything except start collecting welfare...

My many Aboriginal ex-students would be a bit put out by that generalization.

Most of them are productive, hard-working members of the community. 

On 11/04/2020 at 7:24 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

...And why is this a bad thing? I reckon its quite ok.

Most of those who are dependent on the productive members of society could and should give back something in return; not just because it would be unsustainable for so many to be supported by so few, but to forestall a rising epidemic among taxpayers of intolerance towards those they perceive are sponging off them. You only have to look at the recent US elections to see how quickly the masses can be whipped into a feeding frenzy by misinformation campaigns.

On 11/04/2020 at 7:24 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

What else would you have them do?

Crickey! Have a look around your neighborhood at all the work that could be done if people got off their lounges.

Neglected public buildings, overgrown roadsides, weeds and feral animals infesting National Parks...

 

The only limit to what could be achieved is imagination and gumption- rare commodities in Australia.

[Old Koreelah]

On 11/04/2020 at 9:11 PM, pmccarthy said:

Fix footy players salaries. Until you do that, all else is BS. If you can't do it, then don't pretend you can do anything else. A footy player is worth tops 100k a year. Multi millions? Forget it. Look at the worth of the person in our society.

Spot on, Peter. During my teaching career it was common for boys to neglect their studies and focus on sport because they fully expected to become a high-paid footy player.

[old man emu]

30 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

this article written by John Stone about his observations on CDEP

A very enlightening article, and brutally frank. It highlights the thought that if you set out a trough, the pigs will soon get their snouts in it. 

 

The one thing that I find most important in it is that Aboriginal people cannot hope to improve their economic situation without education. Without the 3 Rs nobody, black, white or brindle can hope to work at anything other than the most menial tasks. How do you get these people educated? Well, if the Government is paying out vast sums of money to the "aborigine industry", why not cut off that money and offer it to teachers at similar rates that people who work in those isolated mining enterprises are getting. Pay teachers $200,000 to compensate them for living in isolation. Maybe the attitudes of Millenials to social injustice might be the trigger that would get young teaching graduates to give it a go in the Wilds.

 

Look back to England in the early 19th Century. People worked in mills 14 to 16 hours per day, six days per week. But on Sunday they were free from work to take up religious and cultural activities. Come to the Present and work hours are much less - 8 Hours' work; 8 Hours' rest, and 8 Hours' play. Those 8 Hours' play provide the time for Aboriginal people to work at maintaining their culture. I am strongly in favour of every effort being made for the linguistic study of aboriginal languages as I think their forms would provide valuable insights into the development of human language.

[facthunter]

The biggest argument against educating everyone is the examples of mainly private (non science) education look at the Australian Tories. Tony ABot for example. I am for a good education as it FREES the mind from BS if used properly.. Propaganda is not education.  more the opposite. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

[Bruce Tuncks]

If your wages were on top of the basic income,  then I reckon there would be plenty of takers for jobs. And the wages would be lower and therefore the employee would be more affordable. We could pick our own fruit again.

That CDEP criticism was well written and correct, ( thanks nomad ) but it is not only Aborigines who rip off the system. I am full of admiration for the industrial conditions of medical specialists for example.

And the criticism about the very definition of " aborigines" sure was correct. Silly me for thinking that the word meant blackfellows. There was a recent medical graduate  "indigenous" woman who turned out to be blonde!

There are people who do the right thing but are unrewarded by the system. The guy who set up a local aboriginal-friendly  tv station was one. He was unceremoniously sacked when the useless son of a local "big man" wanted his job. Of course the performance of the new guy was atrocious.

At Wallace Rock-Hole, there were 2 middle-aged white women running the school. They fed the kids first thing and gave them clean t shirts and shorts to wear. They were doing a wonderful job with those kids, but I had to wonder what would happen when they graduated.

On reflection, a committee of elder aboriginal women would be the best you could do for self-management.  I loved the way a group of such women sent some stupid white women packing...  they had gone to Indulkina to protest about Howard quarantining some of the siddown money for food instead of letting the men of the household spend it all on booze.

Not that I totally agreed with Howard...  there are white ferals who need this too, and black  families who don't.