US Civil Unrest

[old man emu]

The current civil unrest in the USA is a frightening thing for the rest of the World. The Country which allegedly holds freedom of speech in such high esteem is showing that there is no such freedom to speak out against the actions of its government or agents of its government. The so-called Leaders of the country have shown that they are willing to use their powers, granted by the people, to attack the people's basic Rights. Trump has invoked the powers of the Insurrection Act. The Insurrection Act of 1807 is a United States federal law that governs the ability of the President of the United States to deploy military troops within the United States to suppress civil disorder, insurrection, and rebellion.

 

Has anyone told the various US Federal and State governments what happens to Rulers/Leaders who use force against their own people? Charles the First, Louis 16th, Tsar Nicholas, Mussolini Gadaffi? At least Charles was actually charged and convicted of a crime against his Subjects. Even if the American People hope to soundly defeat Trump and his allies at the ballot box in November, remember that today is the start of the Northern Hemisphere summer when all those millions emerge from their winter retreats and begin to move around the country. We have seen the Arab Spring. Will we see an American Summer?

[red750]

Insurrection Act - Wikipedia, Invoked once by Ike, 3 times by LBJ and once by Dubya.

[willedoo]

 

 

[willedoo]

Whatever you do, don't get stuck in traffic.

 

[MEDIA=twitter]1267796325912981509[/MEDIA]

[red750]

[red750]

 

[willedoo]

It will be interesting to see if this is the nail in the coffin of his bid for a second term. If he does fail, the bible walk stunt might be remembered as the tipping point. Just lucky for him, nobody was killed clearing the street for his delusional stroll. Some maimed and wounded, and a few Australian journalists beaten, but no deaths.

 

There's a few things stand out in all of this. One is Trump's immature attempts to calm the situation having the reverse effect and fanning the flames. No surprises there. One can only imagine how some past Presidents would have handled it. I think all would have done better except maybe Doubleya who loved a bit of biff. But even he might have done a better job than this buffoon.

 

Next, there's the protesters themselves. The majority are peaceful, well intentioned people but it appears a lot of protests are being taken over by the rioting and looting element moving in. This makes it a lot more difficult for the authorities to do the right thing. Because the two elements get so mixed up, some law enforcers have taken the option of just belting everyone.

 

And that comes to the police and military brutality. To be fair, most of them are probably just trying to do the right thing and are following orders. The people above them giving the orders must shoulder most of the blame, but there hasn't been much mention of that so far. But the examples of police brutality seen so far are sickening to say the least. There has been a lot of innocent people gassed, beaten, shot, and run down by police cars and even our own Australian news crews have been purposely attacked. Press have permits and authority to be there covering the protests. They are clearly identifiable and yet cameras have shown many instances where police have singled them out.

 

A final point is the hypocrisy involved. When they are not quite as busy, the U.S.A. (and our country as well) spends a lot of time and effort lecturing the world on democracy and human rights. Their index finger is frozen in a fixed straight position from years of pointing it at everyone but themselves. They have introduced economic sanctions on many countries, for example China, Iran and North Korea for doing exactly what they are currently doing to their own people. And where are the protests from America's little buddies. Not a peep. Our own country is one of the first to complain about human rights abuses in other countries, but when big buddy does it there's not a peep from our fearful, brown-nosing twits.

[Yenn]

Willi. So true and it just goes to show that we don't have democracy. The Yanks think they have a wonderful democracy which they hold up for the rest of the world to aspire to. What it really is, is the means for the populace to vote for a dictator, who is then considered to be be God.

Our system allows us to elect members of parliament, who are aligned against each other in parties, which then elect one person who more and more is expected to make all the decisions.

The UK system is very similar to ours except that the person elected actually thinks they have the ability to make the decisions and also a god given right to do so.

We must not think we are in a better position, because the situation has not always been so. 50 years or so ago we all had politicians who were trying to do the right thing by their country, now it is all for the party.

[willedoo]

This news item has a small compilation of footage of the treatment of journalists.

 

George Floyd protests: US Police take action after attack on Seven News crew

 

Sadly people forget real quick. Almost nobody gives two hoots these days about the police atrocities carried out during the Occupy Wall Street times. It won't be long before the U.S. is once more lecturing other countries about their treatment of protesters and journalists. I really don't know how their government can look at themselves in the mirror after this. It will take a good government and president and a lot of years before the world regains any respect for them.

[Bruce Tuncks]

There is a protest tomorrow in Adelaide that I would like to go to but...

 

I don't want to be party to lies about aborigines in australia . There was a royal commission into aboriginal deaths in custody, and I thought their summation was fair. Yes they were treated badly years ago, but these days I reckon they are not sufficiently required to assist in their own welfare.

 

AND I don't want to add weight to hothead thugs, if there are any in the protest crowd, by appearing to support them.

 

I would like the organizers to point out that the so-called hotheads may well have been put there to discredit the whole thing. This tactic is as old as protest gatherings have existed. "Agents provocateurs" is the term once used.

[old man emu]

How can young Aborigines ever attain equality with Non-Aborigines when they take as their role models African Americans whose cultural background and cause for protest is so different from that of Aborigines. The "Poor fella me, Blackfella me" attitude is an excuse.

 

We've long ago thrown out the ides that intelligence and ability are bound to race. It is only their cultural background that prevents them from equaling or bettering their Non-Aboriginal classmates. It that cultural background restricted to Aborigines? Not on your Nelly. It is well known that children from families which have slight interest in much more than beer and betting, don't develop their skills as well as they could.

[willedoo]

I would like the organizers to point out that the so-called hotheads may well have been put there to discredit the whole thing. This tactic is as old as protest gatherings have existed. "Agents provocateurs" is the term once used.

Bruce, that possibility is always there. As you say, it's happened throughout time. Some politicians in the U.S. are pointing the finger at Russian involvement in the protests. Sounds a bit silly at first, but is certainly possible to some degree. Conversely, if you scratch the surface of a lot of anti government protests in Moscow, you will find American money and support. Russia has only in the last couple of years started to ban certain foreign NGO's, including most run by the U.S. State Department for that reason. In the current U.S. protests, there's been reports of pallets of bricks showing up in the streets where there's no construction in progress. That's not something that normal run of the mill peaceful protesters would organize. There could be many different actors involved in any one protest.

[Yenn]

The Yanks have to have someone to hate. If there is nobody immediately available, they will think of someone to take the part. They have to blame the Russians for the riots and the Chinese for the Corona virus. One good thing is that they are too busy to be pointing the finger of hate at Cuba and North Korea at the moment.

As pointed out bricks can appear just when hot heads need ammunition and in the same way the USA can approve of something said by our pollies when it attracts attention to the Chinese. Never trust any of them, but most of all never trust the Yanks.

If you don't believe me just think of how the black americans have trusted their pollies and been let down.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yenn, I think the need to have someone to hate is broader that the US. I well remember when we were supposed to hate Catholics ( it didn't really work on my generation in Alice Springs ) and now there are Moslems to do this job in Australia.

We were always bemused by the hate jews business, well we didn't know any, and even if we did, we would have thought the hate bit was silly.

[Bruce Tuncks]

And, a black US youth can become president! Imagine how the layabouts among them must dislike being told this.

[red750]

I see today where a young white police officer in the states was murdered by an African-American. Not much publicity of this one. Doesn't fit their narrative.

[skippydiesel]

The most reliable way to control a nation/population is to have a large complacent middle class - remind you anywhere in particular?

 

The Americans have forgotten this fundamental "law" and are in danger of having a critical mass of the poor/downtrodden/disenfranchised with nothing left to loose by rebelling.

[nomadpete]

It's all rather more complex than either side want to admit. That goes for all conflicts of interest, but presently for these race riots/demonstrations.

 

For instance, we have our pollies pussyfooting around, trying to avoid upsetting any voters, instead of taking decisive stands on issues. Resulting in ineffective 'feelgood' kneejerk interventions.

 

I'm sure I'm not alone with my experiences, at least when it comes to "poor fella me" self pity when it's aimed at such an easy target - "it's all the Whitey's fault".

 

I've felt the brunt of reverse racism. I'm sure you guys who've spent much time away from the bubble of the big cities, know what I'm talking about. I've been racially abused by indigenous men and women. Risked violence whilst simply walking down a street, minding my own business, or ordering a beer in a pub. I've been mugged and robbed by a pair of dark fellas at a taxi rank in Brisbane.

I note that the coppers were very careful about not upsetting anyone dark, more than trying to seek justice. They'd had enough flack from the "antiracist" mob, in the past.

I've watched a unfortunate uniformed copper, getting humiliated in public, on a train. The indigenous woman ranted, taunting him until he got off the train. "Hey copper, wanna BJ? ......How about a f.k?" Etc, etc. There was nothing he could do.

In reality, the precious "indigenous culture" is mostly lost now. And the responsibility for that rests solely on the indigenous people themselves. Because they mostly stopped teaching their old culture generations ago.

They adopted the bits of modern culture that they liked but have resisted adopting the important things like education and work ethics. Ask any teacher who has worked outback. Absenteeism is chronic. That's not the white fellas fault.

 

There is unemployment - well, just how does anyone expect to get a job unless they move to where the work is, and struggle through getting the required skills? I've had to do this numerous times, and people are doing it every day, so they can pay their bills. Again, it needs education.

By the way, these same cultural symptoms apply to numerous parts of "whitefella" suburbs where schooling is not responsibly promoted by "disadvantaged" parents who find it easier to blame their misfortune entirely on the government. These places have poor education standards, high crime rates and violence. So, it's NOT all about race.

I also note that there are many indigenous families who seem to be able to educate and provide for themselves and their children. They have done the hard yards to achieve the life that they wish to live. But they aren't in the news much, are they!

 

As Nev often says, "The harder I worked, the luckier I got"

Edited June 9, 2020 by nomadpete

[facthunter]

One thing for sure is there's NO simple answer to these race based problems. The Stats of incarceration rates and deaths in Custody are there to see. High rates of incarceration is a valid indicator of Social dysfunction.. Strong Lora Norder policies are popular with (simplistic) voters who fall for "who would vote against THAT?" view of the problem.. Politicise the problem and you WON'T fix it. The middle class in the USA has almost disappeared and many have NO assurance or hope of a secure future or to have even the basics for themselves and their dependants. America elected? a ME first President, who sold the message to a desperate people. HE won't deliver because HE is ME first, not the people first. Nor is he a BENEVOLENT DICTATOR. HE doesn't uphold or like Democracy at all or dealing with any Country that Practice it. Why? Because HE can never CONTROL it and that's what he's about. CONTROL. Nev

Edited June 10, 2020 by facthunter

[pmccarthy]

I understand the statistics to be as posted by Malcolm Roberts yesterday:

 

Australian Institute of Criminology reports reveal the facts over the past 30 years:

Approximately 10 Indigenous die in the Australian prison system each year, at a rate BELOW Non-Indigenous prisoners.

For life sentences, it's inevitable. For 58% of Aborigines who die in jail, it is due to natural causes. Then you have suicides/drug overdoses (37% of the total). External trauma (including prison fights) make up the remainder.

For the relatively small number (approximately 6 Aborigines per annum) who die in 'police custody', car pursuit accidents are counted in. In fact, 56% of deaths have been from incidents when police officers were not in close contact with the deceased. Another 21% were from natural causes and 19% self-inflicted.

Coronial hearings have not revealed any concerted police problem in Australia. We have one of the best, most thorough and independent coronial systems in the world, and under it, the police have not been charged and convicted of crimes.

[nomadpete]

I totally agree that the statistics reflect social dysfunction.

 

There is a parallel between our poverty demographic (note I didn't say indigenous, because there are pale folk in this group), and the social dysfunction presently seen in the US.

When there are communities of people living in poverty, feeling disempowered, and seeing few lawful ways to break the poverty cycle, knowing that their community is invisible to the moneyed side of town, it follows that crime prospers amongst unrest.

 

As noted above, US has lost a lot of 'middle class' people. Apart from certain famous wealthy showcase cities, it is a land of mostly poor people who have painfully found that the place is ruled by a statistical minority of relatively wealthy people.

 

Where we appear a little different, is the location of our disenfranchised communities. Few of us have spent time visiting remote communities such as Yuendumu, Doomadgee, Edward River. Few have seen filthy kids wandering aimlessly with a drink can of petrol hung under their nose. Few have seen overloaded Landcrusers trundling out of town, pulling out of the Roadhouse with almost flat tyres on a hundred K drive home, then seeing the same car abandoned and burnt out beside the highway the next day. I sure can't afford to treat my car (or family) like that. Being able to buy and waste Landcruisers must be the fault of people paying for their folly. This stuff reflects social dysfunction in their communities. I saw minibuses taking kids to town for schooling. Hardly any kids in them. I'm all for people aiming to connect with the land. I have always felt at peace out in the desert. But I worked and saved to pay for it. I educated my kids as a priority so they can now afford to live well.

 

Once a culture of poverty and blame develops in a community, that culture must be called out as a failed culture. Otherwise nobody there will be considering changing to a more successful culture.

[Old Koreelah]

...We've long ago thrown out the ides that intelligence and ability are bound to race. It is only their cultural background that prevents them from equaling or bettering their Non-Aboriginal classmates.

As you say, there are many aspect of contemporary indigenous culture that are not conducive to getting ahead in the modern world, but there are also some attributes the rest of us could do well to adopt.

 

While ever the educational system is set up to perpetuate white middle class values, our indigenous brothers will always be at a disadvantage.

Despite this, an increasing number are getting ahead. Among my Aboriginal ex-students are several teachers, a couple of accountants, lawyers and a doctor. A couple also own business and employ several people.

[old man emu]

In comparison with the Americans, Aborigines have been very safe in Australia. Here's a story about what happened in the summer of 1919 in the United States.

 

What stands out in this story is the way African-American soldiers were treated in France and when they returned to the USA. At least Aborigines were treated equally in the Australian Army, but I know that on their return to their home towns they were still not admitted to pubs to have a drink with other returned soldiers.

 

The Americans did not change their treatment of Afro-Americans soldiers during WWll, either. And kept it up in Korea  https://koreanwarlegacy.org/chapters/african-americans-in-the-korean-war/

[red750]

[Marty_d]

On 10/06/2020 at 3:40 PM, pmccarthy said:

I understand the statistics to be as posted by Malcolm Roberts yesterday:

 

Australian Institute of Criminology reports reveal the facts over the past 30 years:

Approximately 10 Indigenous die in the Australian prison system each year, at a rate BELOW Non-Indigenous prisoners.

For life sentences, it's inevitable. For 58% of Aborigines who die in jail, it is due to natural causes. Then you have suicides/drug overdoses (37% of the total). External trauma (including prison fights) make up the remainder.

For the relatively small number (approximately 6 Aborigines per annum) who die in 'police custody', car pursuit accidents are counted in. In fact, 56% of deaths have been from incidents when police officers were not in close contact with the deceased. Another 21% were from natural causes and 19% self-inflicted.

Coronial hearings have not revealed any concerted police problem in Australia. We have one of the best, most thorough and independent coronial systems in the world, and under it, the police have not been charged and convicted of crimes.

 

I'd be wary of anything coming from Malcolm Roberts, he's a man proven to have no clue when it comes to statistics (or reality).

 

When he says "at a rate BELOW non-indigenous prisoners" he's talking straight numbers, totally ignoring the fact that indigenous people are only 2.8% of the population yet comprise 27% of the prison system.  So when indigenous prisoners die at the "same rate" as non-indigenous prisoners, they're still dying at a rate of 7.4 per 100,000, as compared to 0.5/100,000 for non-indigenous.  

 

So why are indigenous people being locked up at a rate of 9 times that of non indigenous?  The Malcolm Roberts of this world will take the simplest explanation and tell you they're just more criminal than the rest of us.  Probably a bit more to it than that I reckon.