US Civil Unrest

[old man emu]

10 hours ago, Marty_d said:

 

So why are indigenous people being locked up at a rate of 9 times that of non indigenous?

 

First, let's look at the crimes that put them in gaol. Are they property, inter-personal or self-harming. In other words, is it stealing/property damage, or assault at its various levels, or is it drug related?

 

Next, let's look at the victims of the crimes. Victims of stealing/property damage are most likely to be non-Aborigines, since Aborigines seem to have either a sharing attitude to property, or a reluctance to steal from other Aborigines. Victims of assault seem to be other Aborigines or Police, with assaults against non-Aborigines associated with stealing offences. Victims of drug related crimes are the offenders themselves.

 

Finally, how do people end up in gaol? The legal system has in place a series of levels that most people pass through before ending up in gaol. They begin with Good Behaviour bonds and progress through fines, community service orders to various types of detention.

 

Just as for non-Aboriginals, it is the young who make up the majority of offenders. By "young" I mean under 30 years of age. Just like non-Aborigines, the young Aborigines have lost respect for their parents and elders and for society in general. Lack of literacy prevents them from approaching the doors of employment. Locality and our low overall population severely limit employment opportunities in anything other than unskilled labour which may be seasonal.

 

Is there a solution? Perhaps.

 

A solution would involve empowering Aboriginal elders to insist on the ancient respect Aboriginal young had for their elders. From respect within the family comes respect for society. Educating the Aboriginal young in their local language and culture would help prevent the Islamic radicalisation that occurs in gaols. Finally encouraging literacy in non-Aboriginal language and skills through learning materials with aboriginal themes would open to doors to employment.

 

Aboriginal people must accept that they now live in a place that is very different from the places that their ancestors lived in over 200 years ago. There can be no denial that their basic needs for life are better now than then. Attempts by non-Aborigines to "bring these poor savages into the modern world"  have mostly been failures because of the non-Aborigines' failure to study the Aboriginal way of life as it existed then, and to use that knowledge to meet non-Aboriginal goals.

 

Improving the lot of Aborigines will involve a joint effort, but first Aborigines must agree amongst themselves where they want that improvement to lead.

[Yenn]

There are a lot of aborigines who live a normal life in our society, they have assimilated and are part of our society. There are a few that have no intention to assimilate, they will accept all the handouts going and still not look after themselves. We are expected to solve the problem, but how can we when some don't do even the most basic things to look after themselves.

Years ago I associated with aborigines and islanders and worked with them. All good blokes.

Now we have a few who are always in trouble and it is "our fault"

Next big push is for them to be recognised in the constitution, but I cannot see what good that would do and consider it un necessary as our constitution is not similar to those that mention original inhabitants.

When they clean their faces to stop getting eye infections, look after the houses they are given and respect the laws we all live by, they will find life easier.

Just as all this noise about black deaths started there was an incident in Townsville. 4 black children died and the black driver survived. The car was stolen and was one of two at the time that the police knew about. Luckily for the police they were not chasing that one when it crashed, or I suppose it would have been black deaths in custody.

In Atlanta there is rioting because a black man was shot dead. He was drunk in a car and the police tried to arrest him. He fought them, took one of their Tazers, ran off and pointed the tazer at the chasing policeman. The policeman has been sacked. No enquiry, just a heat of the moment decision by the police chief or the mayor. Seeing the video footage of what happened I can see what a terrible job the police have, but the way it is going there will be a shortage of people willing to be policemen and where will that leave the USA.

[red750]

This is what has led to -

 

The Minneapolis City Council has unanimously passed a resolution to replace the police with a community-led system.

It begins a year-long process to create a new public safety system after voting to disband the police department.
 

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, Yenn said:

Next big push is for them to be recognised in the constitution, but I cannot see what good that would do and consider it un necessary as our constitution is not similar to those that mention original inhabitants.

 

If you would like to continue a discussion on constitutional recognition, I invite you to post in this thread.

 

 

1 hour ago, red750 said:

The Minneapolis City Council has unanimously passed a resolution to replace the police with a community-led system

 

That's got to be a real knee-jerk reaction without considering the consequences. Police carry out a large number of roles that don't immediately involve locking up people. 

 

Who is going to deal with traffic control around motor vehicle collisions? Who is going to be around to provide all those insignificant tasks that kept some city functions running?  

 

A community-lead policing system is a good idea in theory, but as we all know, there will be people with their own agendas to push who will dominate any organisation. 

[ClintonB]

All of the lemmings whom have followed blindly the strife going on in the US protesting and damaging property here 

in Australia should be locked up and have any welfare cut off. It has nothing to do with how things are done here. Being a cop in the US must be a hard job, politics play too big a roll in their system. You have a huge number of untreated “crazies” out in the field. Guns are every where with no real regulation and a massive drug problem. Watch Discovery ID channel or Crime Investigation channel any day of the week to see the horrific things they face every day. They could have handled the Floyd arrest better and we wouldn’t be going through this BS. For every bad cop there must be a 1000’s of good ones that don’t get thanks for the good that they do. And I still don’t understand why damaging $$$$$$ worth of Private business property fixes anything.

this is just my 2c worth on the matter.
 

[nomadpete]

Our world needs to take a deep breath, and rediscover a process called 'rational thought'.

 

Every problem seems to result in thoughtless kneejerk reactions which cause even bigger problems.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

There are a few things that could be done right now:  1. Have a group of aboriginal police where possible to deal with aboriginal crime. There was ( is ?) a semi-official group in Alice Springs who do a wonderful job within the aboriginal people. They need more support and power I reckon.

2. Avoid custodial punishments, use things like transporting  them to the desert to walkabout home, with appropriate safety and compliance measures in place.

3. Garnish their centerlink money to pay fines. 4. use financial coercion to make them do basic hygiene and housekeeping.

 

These things are so obvious that the only reason they have not been done must be  that the so-called bleeding hearts are in reality the aborigines worst enemies.

Here's an example of how effective financial coercion can be: For many years, the school attendance rate for aboriginal kids was woeful,  until they started tying "kid money " to school attendance. Almost immediately, school attendance improved and the payment began to be called "school money".

How about, say I , " wash your hands money " etc.

 

AND there is no need to make these things racist. There are white ferals out there who need these things too. And aboriginal families who don't.  I was really angry when Howard did some reform in a racist way. I suggest anybody on welfare except old-age pensioners.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Quote

"AND there is no need to make these things racist. There are white ferals out there who need these things too. And aboriginal families who don't."

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Therein lies my personal gripe.

Please have one rule for all.

Otherwise the law sets up a framework for discrimination.

 

[old man emu]

Yep. Every welfare recipient should have a government-issued debit card. A fixed proportion of the welfare payment should be credited to the card, which can only be used to purchase food from supermarkets - not fast food outlets etc. This has the advantage of ensuring that recipients have good food of their choice, without wasting it on alcohol, drugs and other nasty things. Consideration must be made of the needs of these people to pay for accommodation (including power and water) as well as an allowance for transport.

 

The US welfare system has the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP). SNAP is a federal program that helps millions of low-income Americans put food on the table. Across the United States there are 9.5 million families with children on SNAP. It is the largest program working to fight hunger in America. Households can use SNAP to buy nutritious foods such as breads and cereals, fruits and vegetables, meat and fish and dairy products. SNAP benefits cannot be used to buy any kind of alcohol or tobacco products or any nonfood items like household supplies and vitamins and medicines. Obviously, a system in Australia would permit the purchase of household supplies and medicines as these are seen by the community as essentials.

[ClintonB]

Parents of all of the feral kids need to become responsible for the criminal activity their kids participate in. Welfare cuts for repeat offences. Once is a mistake. Ten times is BS, they know how to play the system until they are 18, some parents and older ones influence this for their own gain.

the system of food cards, auto rent and power payments is not racist, it should be applied across the board. Welfare for out of work, unemployed, single parents is not for the latest iPhone, tattoos and drugs. It is there as a help up, you should aspire to have more by earning it working if you want these things. I was an involuntary sole parent when I made it to NSW. I had more money and help from the government than I earn working before hand. I just couldn’t sit and do nothing. It did take the help of my now wife to raise kids and create what we now have. Life can be good with a bit of hard yakka, which doesn’t kill you contrary to some beliefs.

[nomadpete]

A long time ago I came to Queensland and signed up with the Unemployment Service. They are mostly outsourced now, and those mobs seem to have been working the system. But back then the officials offered me a couple of jobs hundreds of Kilometers away, for which I wasn't qualified, this annoyed me so I spent a week knocking on doors and getting knockbacks. A fortnight later I got a telegram (remember those?) to my caravan, offering me good work.

Moral : make your own luck.

I didn't even get a unemployment benefit.

 

All in favour of providing food and lodging support for the down and out, but don't give money without strings attached.

[willedoo]

7 hours ago, old man emu said:

Every welfare recipient should have a government-issued debit card.

The idea has good intention, but that's a large group of people covering those on jobseeker payment, full time and part time carers, age pensioners, disability pensioners, DVA pensioners, widows, farmers on hardship assistance and probably a lot more I've missed. Out of all that lot, there would be plenty complaining, particularly about the stigma attached to the card. Getting it to work in practice would be the challenge.  Some of the small percentage of welfare recipients that blow it on grog or drugs have found ways around it. Things like using the card to buy a non card holders groceries, who in return buys the grog for the card holder.

[old man emu]

Yes. Using debit cards with restrictions would be a blow to the dignity of good people temporarily finding themselves unemployed, or genuinely unable to work because of factors other than a lack of desire to work. We seem to want to use a system like this to control those who are reluctant to otherwise contribute to Society.

 

Damn it! Aren't we expressing a willingness to discriminate between the Haves and the Have Nots?  It's hard to be really non-discriminatory.

[willedoo]

And even if they exempted age pensioners from card restrictions, there's another group of casualties. That's those who have reached the age of 65 and should have been on the age pension except for the fact that miserable tight arsed governments have stolen their hard worked for pension rights and made them wait until 66 or 67 so the pollies can balance their budgets blown by giving handouts to the rich and corporate. The Libs wanted to push it out to 70 until Scotty's poll figures were plunging pre-election.

 

It's humiliating enough for a 65 year old to be unwanted in the workforce and placed on the much lower paid dole instead of the age pension. But to have worked all your life to have your pension stolen away and then the government turn around and issue a card to deny you a hard earned and well deserved beer is just rubbing salt into the wounds. That's why it's a targeted scheme and not a blanket rule on welfare recipients. When you take a hard look at it, almost everyone has their hand in the public purse. Be it industry assistance, rural subsidies, family benefits, pensions, child care subsidies, the list goes on. We just like to kick one group (the unemployed) because of a few bad eggs among them. Hands up those who like to kick the unemployed and can say 100% that they don't receive one cent of taxpayers money.

 

To be sure, the unemployed are a highly visible group, but when you look at the figures on the Coronavirus supplement paid to the unemployed, it's small compared to the many billions more in industry assistance via the jobkeeper subsidy. Some no-hopers on jobseeker might spend their supplement on grog or drugs, but the vast majority will use it to buy things most of us take for granted. Like some new shoes or a much delayed trip to the dentist. The topic of unemployed is one where it's easy to lose perspective.

Edited June 18, 2020 by willedoo

[Yenn]

Willi You are dead right about everyone having their hand in the public purse.

I have my hand in it for the part pension that I get, but I cannot understand why so many people seem to think that they should get a hand out, just because it is available. I am a member of a bushwalking group and we have a president who is an expert at working the system for handouts. He is looking for way to apply for a grant for something we do not need, just because grants are available. So far we have 4 GPS units and not the cheapest either and most of us have our own bought earlier, so no new ones were needed.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, Yenn said:

...we have a president who is an expert at working the system for handouts...

One of my pet hates, Yenn! People who grab anything that's available, even if they don't need it.

So much waste.

 

Some good news: 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-53083559/what-happened-when-a-city-disbanded-its-police-force

Our coppers could learn a bit from this. Too many cruise around in their cars, too few walk the streets. Some of their worst role models are in American cop shows.

A few fit young wallopers on bicycles would make a big difference to street crimes. 

[Yenn]

I doubt that the actual copper on the beat gets much say in how he or she travels. Their cars are not only a means of transport, they are computer equipped and also enable back up equipment to be carried. Just have a look at what a copper carries on him or her now. They appear to have something hanging everywhere on their upper body.

I am looking at a photo of a senior constable who goes into the schools. She has at least 4 pouches above belt height, a gun and a tazer plus another pouch on the belt, plus a big bunch of keys hanging loose. I doubt that she would be able to move very fast on foot and it would certainly make life easier to ride in a car especially seeing that the suburbs are so spread out. To get from Gladstone police station to any of the suburbs would be at least a ten minute bike ride, so a car is the obvious solution. Maybe it is different in Sydney or Melbourne.

[willedoo]

2 hours ago, Yenn said:

Willi You are dead right about everyone having their hand in the public purse.

I have my hand in it for the part pension that I get, but I cannot understand why so many people seem to think that they should get a hand out, just because it is available. I am a member of a bushwalking group and we have a president who is an expert at working the system for handouts. He is looking for way to apply for a grant for something we do not need, just because grants are available. So far we have 4 GPS units and not the cheapest either and most of us have our own bought earlier, so no new ones were needed.

Yenn, I guess a point to make is that the unemployed fill a role of whipping boy when it comes to the issue of freeloaders. There's a lot of noise made about them, but as you point out, the freeloading ethic is widespread across the community and not restricted to one group. Similar to that bushwalking group, a lot of sporting clubs work the system for what it's worth, as well as many other organizations and individuals. On the subject of farmers, maybe best not to go there, but a certain percentage of them are also good at working the grant and assistance system. Luckily, they're in the minority and most farmers have a sense of what's fair and what's not. But there is a lot of waste in the country, even including public works.

 

I remember in my area a few years back all these little new parks were popping up in obscure places where nobody used them, and still don't. Someone suggested that the financial year budget for works had to be spent in full, or it would be reduced next time. True or not, I don't know. At least a dole bludger getting on the grog or drugs is straight up about it. There's plenty of other people in the country who aren't so willing to be as upfront about how they have their hand out or in someone else's pocket.

Edited June 18, 2020 by willedoo

[Jerry_Atrick]

23 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Similar to that bushwalking group, a lot of sporting clubs work the system for what it's worth, as well as many other organizations and individuals.

 

And at least one flying school...

[Old Koreelah]

45 minutes ago, Yenn said:

I doubt that the actual copper on the beat gets much say in how he or she travels. Their cars are not only a means of transport, they are computer equipped and also enable back up equipment to be carried...

Gladstone police station to any of the suburbs would be at least a ten minute bike ride, so a car is the obvious solution. Maybe it is different in Sydney or Melbourne.

Good points, Yenn. I should have specified inner-city and local patrolling. Little towns like mine have persistent vandalism problems and police in a patrol car have little hope of detecting, much less catching the buggers.

A couple of coppers doing the odd, unannounced bicycles patrol at night might be far more effective.

[willedoo]

Looks like it's starting again. I wonder if this latest police shooting in Wisconsin will see protests nationwide or just local rioting.

 

https://twitter.com/hutchguwop/status/1297692366741045248

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by willedoo

[old man emu]

How could the policeman justify using deadly force there? And why half empty a magazine into a person's back? As a career policeman, I can only condemn that policeman and call what he did cold blooded murder.

 

The suit of blue does not of itself endow the wearer with respect. Respect has to be earned by each individual after putting on the suit. The only way to prevent incidents like this in the future is to remove the availability of deadly force from police until they themselves learn when to use it. It seems that in America, it's only police lives that matter.

[Bruce Tuncks]

As a farmer and superannuated retiree, I am surprised to read that many people think farming is subsidised in some way by the government.

Let me tell you that, far from getting a cent from the government, we are ripped off unmercifully. For example, after the Kinglake bushfires, we along with many others, no longer wanted to pay the insurance hiked premiums. So the government put the onus onto councils. We now pay $6000 a year council rates and are not insured. We get about $300 of council services. The rest of the $6,000 is a sort of tax.

If you look around the town, you see the newest cars belonging to bureaucrats, when 50 years or so ago they might have belonged to the biggest farmers.

If you know better, feel free to be my financial manager for a percentage of those imagined handouts.

[onetrack]

What about the U.S. copper shooting a dog through a security fence, simply because it had grabbed his (police) dog by the muzzle? Typical American answer to every problem - "Just shoot it!"

 

https://www.dailymercury.com.au/news/disturbing-moment-cop-shoots-dog/4083855/

[old man emu]

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

What about the U.S. copper shooting a dog

Did you notice that the woman, probably the dog's owner, was Afro-American?

 

The police dog was poorly trained. They are supposed to be like seeing-eye dogs and ignore the barking of other dogs.