How Australia Perfected Solar Power and Then Went Back to Coal

[Downunder]

Found the "Vice News" channel not long ago. Has some really good articles. Also has a youtube channel.

 

https://news.vice.com/article/how-australia-perfected-solar-power-and-then-went-back-to-coal

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

All that Australia and other countries have perfected is how to subsidise these alternative power generation methods.

 

 

 

They don't stack up in the real world.

 

 

 

Relatively few of the existing installations would have gone in without the rest of us being forced to kick the can on cost and all the people that I know who have these ugly units blighting the rooves of their houses and sheds would not have gone ahead without the rest of the community partly paying for it.

 

 

 

The entire economic model for government subsidy has been, and will continue to be, an economic disaster and burden, just to make a few radicals & activists feel warm and fuzzy.

 

 

 

Ditto for wind-farms too, which are about as attractive as a roof-full of solar panels.

 

 

 

In my humble opinion.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I have solar at home. My farming mates have solar running their computerised irrigation systems. I just returned from a trip to the Alice where much of the town's requirements are provided by solar.

 

I see the irreversible damage being done to prime farming lands by energy mining in the Hunter and elsewhere and I am deeply concerned by it and the motives of the decision makers.

 

One statement in the link provided struck a certain resonance with me:

 

"Just a classic example of aging white men who don't understand the future."

 

Kaz

 

 

[skeptic36]

"Just a classic example of aging white men who don't understand the future."

 

Kaz

Kaz,

 

It has nothing to do with the ageing white men, and everything to do with every man and his dog wanting cheap energy, and that comes from the ugly holes in the ground and the pollution. If you want clean renewable energy, then you had best be prepared to pay a lot more for it. You're also probably going to need a milking cow as well, because I'm not going to continue dairy farming for no return, and by the time I have fed the irrigation pumps and the dairy with expensive clean energy there isn't going to be much left.

 

It doesn't matter if your paying for it on you energy bill or you tax bill, you're still paying.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

All that Australia and other countries have perfected is how to subsidise these alternative power generation methods. 

 

They don't stack up in the real world.

 

 

 

Relatively few of the existing installations would have gone in without the rest of us being forced to kick the can on cost and all the people that I know who have these ugly units blighting the rooves of their houses and sheds would not have gone ahead without the rest of the community partly paying for it.

 

 

 

The entire economic model for government subsidy has been, and will continue to be, an economic disaster and burden, just to make a few radicals & activists feel warm and fuzzy.

 

 

 

Ditto for wind-farms too, which are about as attractive as a roof-full of solar panels.

 

 

 

In my humble opinion.

Oh Captain, my Captain! I thought you were better than this.

 

Like Uncle Joe Hockey, you seem to despise the look of wind turbines. I presume you are okey with the ugly mess made of our land by coal mines and their associated facilities and power stations.

 

As for the community paying for these new solar panels, we got a great deal! Compared to so many other government schemes, the public investment in roof-top solar has been a phenomenal success, and worth every penny. Our dependence on dirty fossil fuels has been reduced and now the big electricity companies are running scared. They are spending up big to maintain their cosy monopoly.

 

Australia continues to subsidise old fossil fuel industries, yet our scientists struggle to get local funding to develop their world-leading renewable technologies, especially photo voltaics. They get more support from overseas, where even the oil-rich Arabs see a future we cannot. Solar panels and the other renewables can save mankind from the inevitable disaster that will result from our accelerating use of fossil fuels. Yet Abbott and his yes men are winding back the clock.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz,It has nothing to do with the ageing white men, and everything to do with every man and his dog wanting cheap energy, and that comes from the ugly holes in the ground and the pollution. If you want clean renewable energy, then you had best be prepared to pay a lot more for it. You're also probably going to need a milking cow as well, because I'm not going to continue dairy farming for no return, and by the time I have fed the irrigation pumps and the dairy with expensive clean energy there isn't going to be much left.

 

It doesn't matter if your paying for it on you energy bill or you tax bill, you're still paying.

 

Regards Bill

Bill

 

I have paid for mine with the installation of a 3.5 kW solar unit at home. My dairy farming mates have been putting them up, too, to reduce their electricity costs in the dairy. Their irrigation systems run without the need to provide costly overhead wire connections.

 

I'm in Victoria which doesn't have the big reserves of black coal that are found further north, but I know people up there whose high-producing properties have been severely impacted by mining around them. Their communities have been likewise severely impacted and more and more are questioning the reliance on coal and low technology power stations that cannot burn clean.

 

The big holes are mainly the result of exports, not our local power production needs. People in the Hunter are pointing out the short term nature of extractive mining in the national accounts rather than the long-term contribution that comes from industries like yours.

 

Stick with it, Bill. We need our farmers.

 

Kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

In Melbourne we've been through the "Well people are going to have to pay more for water and you should only use 155 Litres/day/person (Labor) or 130 litres winter and 170 litre summer (LNP" and "people are going to have to pay more for power" and landfill is evils so we must have smaller and smaller bins

 

So I have to pay two levels higher than the standard water rates, or use part of my 155 limit to water all the sheep.

 

I was given a smart meter so I bought an off peak water heater. The water heater uses the same power 24 hours a day, so that was a lie), to get off peak power from the smart meter to the water heater has cost me $300.00 so far, but.........the smart meter has no provision for off peak rates despite the advertising, and will require special fittings which are only available if like me you are an enquiring person.

 

And landfills? we now have garbage bins 1/4 the size of what we used to. Toxic Waste which once was buried safely now has to be buried safely in favoured toxic tips, which means that small companies are dumping it on roadsides and larger companies are simply storing it throughout the cities in racks in their factories.

 

So basic services to a large part of the community have increased maybe $2000.00 per year and it surprises me that there hasn't already been a big backlash.

 

This is the market you would have to convince to pay substantially more for solar power, wind power and the other stuff you want to offload onto us one punch thugs and other filth.

 

If there are some facts we are missing, let's hear them now, because I don't really think people are using 19th century fuel product by choice, so you might win some supporter, albeit if you accept that the only way you are ever going to drink milk again is to run faster that a wildcow.

 

 

[Methusala]

What are sheep doing drinking precious potable water? I think that you believe the 'trickle down' drivel that post Keynsian 'economists' have tried to get us people who can think to swallow for years. You know the story, "Privatised (everything ) is cheaper, better managed and good for all of us " CRAP! Bit like believing Lieberal propaganda really. I did secondary school economics from Samuelson and have yet to see ANYTHING in supply side economics that is more than sucker bait. (That a wild cow?WTF)

 

 

[skeptic36]

A lot of venom in your two posts in this thread so far Methusala. To feel so strongly about a subject, you must have some real world stats, maybe you could post them here.

 

What about you OK, do you have any figures to back your statements?

 

One thing is for sure, most of what we consume in this society uses energy, if that energy costs more the common man in this country, is going to have less to spend on toys because more of their income will be used surviving.

 

If you don't believe what Captain had to say go and get an estimate to purchase one of those big wind generators. I have. You will find that the cost of a reconditioned one is more than the value of the electricity it will produce, (at current retail prices) before it is again due for overhaul ( about seven years from memory). Then you have the tower and installation to pay for ;-)

 

I did tell a little fib in the above, where I said " at current retail prices " , I did this exercise more than ten years ago but I doubt the bottom line will have changed much.

 

So without subsidies they are going nowhere.

 

Then of course we could all embrace the higher cost energy, and you could say everything will go up relative to each other so no problem, except we would have trashed our economy because the rest of the one punch thug- filth in the world are not doing it. Soooo how ya goin now, higher cost of living and no job to pay for it"........

 

What about you Winsor68, do you have anything, backed by something of substance, to say?

 

Or are you just going to press the creative button and run away again?

 

 

[skeptic36]

Bill

I have paid for mine with the installation of a 3.5 kW solar unit at home. My dairy farming mates have been putting them up, too, to reduce their electricity costs in the dairy. Their irrigation systems run without the need to provide costly overhead wire connections.

 

Kaz

Kaz,

 

How much of the cost of your home unit was subsidised?

 

The three irrigation pumps on our property would suck anything less than 4ha of solar panels inside out in an instant. That leaves wind and as one person suggested hydro. I have written about wind above, and I know what the catchment management authority would say if I dropped a turbine in the river with the associated works necessary to make it work :-)

 

I admit there are things I could do to help ie solar hot water at the dairy etc. but so far the business has had other priorities for that money.

 

But then if the price of dairy commodities went up to help pay for this sort of stuff I could get it done a lot quicker

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Turbs you seem a mite disgruntled by recent changes and price increases. We all want a clean environment, but that comes at a price.

 

It's easy to forget what enables our comfortable lifestyle (our grandparents were only starting to use fossil fuels; their living standard depended more on muscle power). The inescapable fact is that we have had it easy for a long time; cheap oil is gone and now there are several billion more people to share those dwindling supplies with. We have to pay more, or adapt.

 

Australia has plenty of coal, and we have become far too dependent on exporting it, instead of developing smart new industries to employ and sustain our people.

 

People like yourself and the Captain have had your heads down achieving great things within the economy as it currently stands. I applaud your success. Meanwhile many of us have been beavering away for decades trying to awaken people to how much better this country could be.

 

If you are not aware how much our economy has been distorted (and perverted) by fossil fuels, the following sources may help:

 

http://theconversation.com/coal-curse-the-black-side-of-the-subsidised-resources-boom-7801

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/southern-crossroads/2014/feb/02/fossil-fuel-subsidies-tony-abbott-spc-ardmona-corporate-welfare

 

http://environmentvictoria.org.au/newsite/sites/default/files/useruploads/MF%20and%20EV%202013%20polluter%20handouts%20assessment%20FINAL-4.pdf

 

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/11/01/nsws-great-big-coal-subsidy-scandal/

 

http://www.takesteps.org/empower/exhibition/B1g_s4.1-4_c4_SUBSIDIZING%20Destruction.html

 

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/energy-smart/cheap-coal-for-power-subsidises-polluters-20101107-17j1k.html

 

http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/04/14/ipcc-puts-more-heat-on-abbotts-anti-science-climate-policies/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

 

 

[fly_tornado]

the sad thing is the Chinese end up burning out coal and the ash falls on the fields, which ends up in the food chain within months of it falling. The Chinese gov will end up buying Australian farms to feed their population.

 

http://qz.com/86416/how-half-of-all-rice-in-a-chinese-province-was-poisoned-by-pollution/

 

 

[turboplanner]

They've already started FT with a massive purchase near Keith, SA, and there's a good chance the food is not going to McDonalds in Bordertown.

 

Methusla Economics

 

1. No milk, can't earn a living from it.

 

2. If my sheep can't drink water they die, so no meat

 

You could dig turnips for your food I suppose.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz,How much of the cost of your home unit was subsidised?

 

The three irrigation pumps on our property would suck anything less than 4ha of solar panels inside out in an instant. That leaves wind and as one person suggested hydro. I have written about wind above, and I know what the catchment management authority would say if I dropped a turbine in the river with the associated works necessary to make it work :-)

 

I admit there are things I could do to help ie solar hot water at the dairy etc. but so far the business has had other priorities for that money.

 

But then if the price of dairy commodities went up to help pay for this sort of stuff I could get it done a lot quicker

I honestly don't know how much was subsidised.. Certainly not as much as some earlier connections were but the retail price had come down a lot, anyway.

 

But the question of the "subsidy" is an interesting one. Here in Victoria, it seems there has been a significant drop in power consumption and at least one of our brown coal generators is no longer required. The fire in the open cut didn't help!

 

So the replacement of aged infrastructure is no longer as pressing a need as was previously the case and that should translate into cost savings for consumers (tax-payers) too.

 

We all get subsidies in different ways. I'm single, so I'm subsidising two-income families with children under 18. I pay tax on my PAYE income which helps pay for the diesel fuel exemption, rural road networks, drought assistance and other subsidies that primary producers enjoy. I don't begrudge it one bit and once upon a time I enjoyed those same subsidies, too.

 

I'm truly sorry that some of the responses to my "teaser" have been personal and even vitriolic. I think these subjects need to be discussed intelligently and calmly because they are topics about the world of the future.

 

It is absolutely certain that fossil fuel supplies will become scarcer and more expensive. It's highly likely, if not certain, that our environment will change for the worse very quickly during this century because of climate change. I'm no expert, but my second degree was in Environmental Science and and I still can understand a little about the science now. Alternative sources of energy are extremely important and will one day be essential.

 

I have little doubt we will one day have nuclear energy generation in our fair country but Japan recently gave us a good indication of the trouble that flows from having too greater a reliance on any one source. We have done a great deal to pioneer energy technologies in Australia and it just seems to me to be a backward step to remove all incentives right now.

 

Your irrigation pumps are obviously a significant cost to your operation, whether running on diesel or electricity. Most of the irrigation down here is flood. Solar just operates the gates and timers, and provides feedback to the catchment authority and farmer.

 

While solar may not be sufficient to run your pumps, it could run your dairy and home for a large part of the time. My experience is it cut my domestic power costs by about 75% . I now do my washing and turn on the dishwasher during the day. I set the air-conditioning to come on mid-afternoon so that when I arrive home the temperature in the house is just right. My neighbours without solar power benefit indirectly because I, and the many others who have solar power reduce the drain on base load supplies. And I don't need to worry about off-peak connectivity at all.

 

It's a discussion, but it's not worth bitter words.

 

Kaz

 

 

[crashley]

which of our brown coal generators is not required any more , the more solar and wind power generated the more normal electricity will cost because the brown coal station is still needed to generate all the needed power when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine but most of the costs of a coal power station are fixed ie makes no real difference wether they are generating or not which also a bit like the desal plant

 

 

[Methusala]

Short memory oooh, must have a short memory

 

I don't feel like googling all the old stuff because...guess what? You neanderthals never listen. eg. You KNOW that Rudd's perfectly appropriate Keynesian response to the GFC saved Australia from going down the s--t tubes the way GB, USA and the others went. That's right! You don't want to acknowledge the praise of the IMF and OECD. Pffft! is your response. The reason that I spoke about the thugs and other slime is because, in their totally self centred way, they don't see how anything they choose to do could adversly affect anyone else. It's a disease. Now its climate denial. Well we don't want to burn this earth before our sons and daughters and their grandsons and daughters have a say. End of message.

 

 

[kaz3g]

http://www.latrobevalleyexpress.com.au/story/2453321/end-of-the-line-hrl-announces-energy-brix-closures/

 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/la-trobe-valley-power-generation-company-closes-costing-up-to-37-jobs/story-fni0fit3-1227005903669

 

How many $millions did they receive in subsidies?

 

The major load is during the day when industry demands are at their peak. That was why there used to be a "night rate" years ago which then became "off peak".

 

Natural gas generators (that stuff we sold overseas by the ship load for the cost of carting it) can be quickly brought on stream to meet un-expected demands. Now that the carbon tax has been dropped, no doubt the coal-fired industry will sort itself.

 

Kaz

 

Kaz

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

If you were merely talking about town X then it would be true that "when the sun don't shine" and "when the wind don't blow" expand past town X to state X or better country X then it becomes less of an issue because its unlikely to be overcast for the entire country and no wind anywhere is unlikely....... In Germany for example I believe that Solar accounts for >40% of the country total electricity production (Details here) ......I doubt that there is 40% of unused baseline load capacity ready in case it totally isn't available. Furthermore Small Scale Production has the advantage of being right near/next to the place it will be used so there is little transmission loss that plagues baseline load production capabilities. Germany, it would seem to me is much more likely to be concerned about overcast days etc....yet they seem to manage. (in fact check this out to show how far behind they are compared to even Tasmania, let alone the rest of Australia

 

The problems with subsidies is that all they then do is artificially adjust the real price. If the government introduces a 30% subsidy then it will follow that within a reasonable period of time the cost of the goods are 130% what they otherwise would be. In NSW when the 60c per kWH subsidy finished the cost of solar systems dramatically reduced. The only benefit is that the cost of these things when you get good quality items (and yes you will definitely pay more for them) is a fraction of the useful life generation. My system which generates in excess of 100% of my family's needs was chosen based on the best quality in the market place for solar panels and inverters. I expect that the solar panels will still be producing at more than 80% of rated power 30 years after they were installed (force majeure allowing) . I'd hope the same for the inverter but realistically If I get 15years from it that will be a bonus, it comes with a 10yr warranty and the supplier is in my opinion #1 in the world so I expect them to be around to honour it if needed. Under the subsidy system (which I accept at a macro level is wrong, yet I lapped it up at a micro level!) it fully pays for itself in $ after 8 years followed by hopefully a significant period of bonus!!

 

Andy

 

 

[kaz3g]

http://www.bom.gov.au/watl/sunshine/

[Old Koreelah]

How embarrassing: with a tiny fraction of our average sunlight, the Germans are years ahead of us.

 

Australia, the land of "could have beens". We could have been champions.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have done my bit for the enviroment. We have a 3.6 KW solar system on our house roof. It makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside, I don't give a toss how much polution comes out of my Nissan Patrol 4.2 Turbo diesel. Oh yeah

 

 

[winsor68]

Yep.

 

A lot of venom in your two posts in this thread so far Methusala. To feel so strongly about a subject, you must have some real world stats, maybe you could post them here.What about you OK, do you have any figures to back your statements?

 

One thing is for sure, most of what we consume in this society uses energy, if that energy costs more the common man in this country, is going to have less to spend on toys because more of their income will be used surviving.

 

If you don't believe what Captain had to say go and get an estimate to purchase one of those big wind generators. I have. You will find that the cost of a reconditioned one is more than the value of the electricity it will produce, (at current retail prices) before it is again due for overhaul ( about seven years from memory). Then you have the tower and installation to pay for ;-)

 

I did tell a little fib in the above, where I said " at current retail prices " , I did this exercise more than ten years ago but I doubt the bottom line will have changed much.

 

So without subsidies they are going nowhere.

 

Then of course we could all embrace the higher cost energy, and you could say everything will go up relative to each other so no problem, except we would have trashed our economy because the rest of the one punch thug- filth in the world are not doing it. Soooo how ya goin now, higher cost of living and no job to pay for it"........

 

What about you Winsor68, do you have anything, backed by something of substance, to say?

 

Or are you just going to press the creative button and run away again?[/quote

[Downunder]

I worked with an old german bloke. (Born 07/12/41 actually. Young uns might have to look it up)

 

He was really amazed about the apathy Australians had towards solar considering the massive amout of sunlight we have.

 

Looks like the stories he told about the germans being right in to solar were spot on.....

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I have had a 5 kW solar system for about two years now.

 

I run a domestic pump from the river with 30 mt head for garden and domestic usage.

 

Averages out to be close to $500 a quarter saving on past AGL statements.

 

Only use the main appliances ie washing machine, during daylight hours though.

 

Did some sums a while back, it worked out to be around 30% return on the investment.

 

A no brainier in my opinion.

 

Phil.

 

 

[Methusala]

Scrub my post? What a lot of children!