How Australia Perfected Solar Power and Then Went Back to Coal

[metalman]

Al gores got a great jet,,,at least he's doing his bit for global warming,

 

And what! Al Gore ,,inaccurate?,,,nooo it can't be true ,the poster boy is awesome,,,,I even like the stupid look on his face sitting next to Palmer wondering what the f**k he'd actually endorsed,,, LOL

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Clive is doing a great job, we wouldn't be at war if he wasn't.

 

 

[eightyknots]

80knots you just need to ggl "petition project criticism" and you can easily find enough information to make your own evaluation of the validity of that petition.

this is an ok article which is easy to read http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-11-12/

 

As a proponent of the invisible hand of the free market you must accept that Al Gore's book however inaccurate was a best seller so there for global warming must exist.

Another best seller is Wind in the Willows. Do people really believe that badgers and otters talk?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

There is a talking donkey in the bible.

 

Check and mate!

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're reducing FT to desperation now, so what has to be done to get solar power back on track as our primary source of electrical energy?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Subsidize coal!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Subsidize coal!

...but we already do that.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

well now that we have gotten rid of the carbon and mining taxes we have increased that subsidy.

 

we are winning it just doesn't feel like it.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

80knts Quote : " I am not sure how 40% of Americans believing the Noah's ark event has anything to do with 31,000 scientists signing a petition." I'll just tell you what it has to do with anything.... It suggests that there are an awful lot of really f***king stupid people around the U.S. that will sign up for any old twaddle, ( Don't forget , 93% of American citizens are practicing Christians ( thus believe in magic) which puts the value of their opinion severely in doubt) and maybe, just maybe, some of the 31000 scientists are among them.....It's not irrelevant...goes to credibility

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

A bit like government, Turbs: infested with people who have more expertise in spin than in the area they have been given control over.Remember the KISS principle. Simple, low-tech passive solar design usually beats the complicated systems salesmen try to sell you. Why are Australians still installing appliances that rely on burning coal to heat water?

We heat our swimming pool with 300 metres of 20 mm poly pipe. Now to get the filter pump to run on solar . . .

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

80knts Quote : " I am not sure how 40% of Americans believing the Noah's ark event has anything to do with 31,000 scientists signing a petition." I'll just tell you what it has to do with anything.... It suggests that there are an awful lot of really f***king stupid people around the U.S. that will sign up for any old twaddle, ( Don't forget , 93% of American citizens are practicing Christians ( thus believe in magic) which puts the value of their opinion severely in doubt) and maybe, just maybe, some of the 31000 scientists are among them.....It's not irrelevant...goes to credibility

Peeved fundamental atheist expresses anger that he is unable to comprehend how completely unrelated topics are unrelated. Being uneducated in the basic tenets of a faith he enjoys the benefits of daily he bursts into profanity to unsure all credibility is definitely gone. Claims the USA is almost completely stupid despite what most rational people would see is a long history of innovation and creativity. Apparently thinks Australians have superior intellect but doesn't mention any actual evidence of this.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

yeah nah, America imports its "innovators" from Europe, Asia and Australia. $17Trillion in debt doesn't happen by mistake.

 

 

[eightyknots]

You're reducing FT to desperation now, so what has to be done to get solar power back on track as our primary source of electrical energy?

I agree, this thread would be far more edifying if the items described in the thread title was adhered to.

 

 

[skeptic36]

yeah nah, America imports its "innovators" from Europe, Asia and Australia. $17Trillion in debt doesn't happen by mistake.

So that puts the Yanks in debt $536 for every man woman and child, but us "innovators" here in Australia only owe $326.5 billion, which puts us in debt $13,838 for every man woman and child............

 

Nope, it seems if I use a calculator that shows enough zeroes, that number for the yanks goes out to approximately $53600

 

 

[octave]

So that puts the Yanks in debt $536 for every man woman and child, but us "innovators" here in Australia only owe $326.5 billion, which puts us in debt $13,838 for every man woman and child............Nope, it seems if I use a calculator that shows enough zeroes, that number for the yanks goes out to approximately $53600

not sure about those figures

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-government-debt-per-person-countries

 

 

[bexrbetter]

just maybe, some of the 31000 scientists are among them.....It's not irrelevant...goes to credibility

Not many scientists, regardless of GW position, believe in the literal Bible.

 

I would have thought that the Scientists on the money grab spouting unproveables are the one's with the credibility problem, not the one's who are simply saying prove it - and for free.

 

You have all seen Gnu's "1970 predictions" post in the joke thread, I'm quite comfortable that in 2050 a "2010 predictions" post will be right there as well.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...I'm quite comfortable that in 2050 a "2010 predictions" post will be right there as well.

Let's hope you're right Bex; its a gamble with pretty high stakes, especially when the precautionary approach could be safer and relatively painless.

 

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/astronomy/fixing-climate-change-may-add-no-costs-report-says-20140916-10hr96.html

 

 

[turboplanner]

We've already done wonders with Ozone, and CO2 emission from cars. Power Stations, and some manufacturing processes need the same legislative motivation wqhich worked for the automotive industry apparently painlessly.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

We've already done wonders with Ozone, and CO2 emission from cars. Power Stations, and some manufacturing processes need the same legislative motivation wqhich worked for the automotive industry apparently painlessly.

Hang on, there - the only way to reduce CO2 emissions from cars, is to burn less hydrocarbon fuel. Perfect combustion of any hydrocarbon fuel produces only CO2 and water. We HAVE made strides in reducing CO emissions; but CO (carbon monoxide - a deadly poison) is a result of imperfect combustion, due to an over-rich mixture. As such, it could in principle be eliminated altogether, without noticeably affecting the function of the vehicle. Don't confuse the two. I doubt very much that power station stacks emit carbon monoxide - that would be an inefficiency they would strive to correct; CO emission means wasted fuel.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Hang on, there - the only way to reduce CO2 emissions from cars, is to burn less hydrocarbon fuel. Perfect combustion of any hydrocarbon fuel produces only CO2 and water. We HAVE made strides in reducing CO emissions; but CO (carbon monoxide - a deadly poison) is a result of imperfect combustion, due to an over-rich mixture. As such, it could in principle be eliminated altogether, without noticeably affecting the function of the vehicle. Don't confuse the two. I doubt very much that power station stacks emit carbon monoxide - that would be an inefficiency they would strive to correct; CO emission means wasted fuel.

Correct theory - we burn a LOT less fuel

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Well how's this for logic?My electricity supplier installed a smart meter, and supplied wonderful information about how I could use it to reduce my power bill, mainly by using power in the middle of the night.

 

So I started by buying a Hot Water System - not a cheap one but one designed for Off - Peak use

 

When I asked the HWS supplier how its timing was set for off peak usage, he didn't know ("No one has ever asked that before")

 

So I went back to my electricity supplier, who said the appliance must be wired directly to the smart meter.

 

That has cost me $300.00 so far. My electrician couldn't find a tab to connect to, so he phoned the electricity supply company.

 

They told him that I had to order an off peak connection, then they would come out and fit it, then he could come back and connect to it - which didn't improve his mood on the day at all.

 

The electrician had never connected to a smart meter off peak connector before.

 

In talking to the electricity supplier, I was warned that an off peak supply connection wouldn't necessarily save me money, because when I ordered and off peak connection to be fitted, my base tariff would automatically increase.

 

So they suggested I should think through whether the saving on the hot water service at night, would offset the higher rate for ALL my other lights and appliances during the day.

 

The answer of course was that I would be paying more if I got an off peak connector.

 

I'm just wondering if tens of thousands of people who have smart meters are just assuming when they pay extra for an "off peak" appliance, that they will save money................

Tubs you are being taken for a ride here, its very simple........ Get your electrician to wire in a time clock that is powered 24 x7 (at your cost and available from any electrical wholesaler that your electrician usually uses) . Use that to switch on and off supply to your hot water system to align with the shoulder/off peak times within your time of use.

 

Changing from a smart meter to traditional peak/off peak is a retrograde step because only the hot water system will benefit from off peak, using a smart meter allows the timing benefit to be had by any device you can program for use such as clothes washer/dishwasher etc that you load, go to bed and allow them to do their thing during the early hours of the morning.

 

Most Solar Hot water systems that use electrical boost power have an electronic controller that allows you to program times of the day when you are prepared to heat with electricity, people program them to align with the time of use benefits discussed above. The electronic controller takes the place of the time clock I have mentioned above.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Oh and another benefit, if the time clock (or solar electronic controller for those with that type of heating) has a bypass switch that can be used to bypass the clock either on or off, then if you are going away for an extended time turn it off, and no wasted heating charges, if you have the teen girl grandchildren over and each uses 400Litres of your 135Litre supply you can turn to on and heat, albeit more expensively) from peak/shoulder or whatever time of day it is....just don't forget to put it back to normal at the end.......

 

Andy

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes I was up with all that; we used to have two meters a peak one and an off peak one, but now it's one Smart Meter. The advertising says the smart meter allows you to minimise your power bill by doing your washing, hws etc off peak.

 

HOWEVER, what I posted about was that the Smart meter isn't smart unless you make it smart by having an off peak connector, and if you do that they increase the base rate.

 

So you do get some savings during off peak, but you now pay a higher rate for the bulk of your power usage, so you pay more than you were paying for having everything on the base rate.

 

And of course you will be using your air conditioning most during the day rate, so in summer total costs will skyrocket.

 

So, a nice little gouge.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Yeah its criminal that people would be moved off traditional peak/offpeak onto a smart meter without legislating that the other necessary infrastructure be added.

 

Doing so will simply shift the load from offpeak to anytime of the day and storage heaters wont store anything, but rather will heat whenever the thermostat switches them on. For example using old technology the thermostat might be set to turn off at 60degrees and back on at 55.......for the period of off peak usage the majority of the time is spent in initial heat, and perhaps a bit of cycling during the later hours.......just prior to the next days cycle the temp may well be down to 40 degrees meaning that on average across a 24hr day you maintained 48degrees....... With the change you will now maintain an average of 57 degrees, and its the average that will drive your total energy usage/cost......Most in this case if they don't put in timeclock infrastructure would be better at shifting their thermostat back to a lower temp......but no one will ever tell you that (me included!) because you need the high temp to kill off any Legionnaires' bacteria. A constant 48 wont do that...... net result more power use by community not less!!

 

But as a consumer you have the power to benefit if you know what you are doing....... The fact that the electrician didn't know about all that is equally damning in my opinion. You need a better choice there IMHO

 

Andy

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Correct theory - we burn a LOT less fuel

Well, in that case, how is "the same legislative motivation which worked for the automotive industry apparently painlessly" going to reduce the CO2 emissions from power stations ? The only way to reduce the CO2 from power stations is to reduce electricity consumption, which needs motivation of the consumers, not the producers. Power stations are at least twice as thermodynamically efficient as motor vehicles; your parallel does not make sense.