How Australia Perfected Solar Power and Then Went Back to Coal

[AVOCET]

4.5. K/w On the hanger one year ago , haven't paid a bill yet ,

 

Solar hot water , tank water , couldn't have done it without a subsidy ,

 

 

[AVOCET]

Scrub my post? What a lot of children!

It doesn't work when u take on the mantle ( avatar ) of a great figure in history and then carry on in a vitriolic manner based on a political point of view . Who would do that .

 

Stick to aviation matters where i can respect your expertise .

 

Mike

 

 

[geoffreywh]

For transmission of solar power from sunny Alice to cloudy Melbourne you are going to use what? The German comparison thing just wont cut the mustard due to two facts (at least) .We live on a continent of 7,7 MILLION km2 , Germany is 360 THOUSAND km2. Australian population density is 3 people per km2 ...........For Germany it's 235!............ These two facts conspire to make it IMPOSSIBLE to compare power consumption prices and usage. Yes you could cover the Simpson Desert with solar panels and wind farms. So how you going to get the power across a continent, say 2000 kms .in each direction....Want to pay for that in your next bill?......................You can live off solar energy alone, part time..... My mate did it for 20 years. (12 panels and batteries) But don't ask what time he went to bed or how much TV he watched....or how much LPG and diesel he consumed.....It wasn't cheap...My airco is 5kw....... How many panels would I need to run that?......Oh Dear, I can't have solar panels cause the council wont let me cut down any trees. "Bad for the environment " they said!....

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks O.K., several newspaper stories which would be good to discuss.

 

One thing which gets up my nose is the hundreds of years supply we have of natural gas in Bass Strait - more than we will ever use if the rate of human development remains consistent and we find ways to make solar power effective enough, and batteries light enough with enough range and life to suit our power needs within the next, say, 100 years.

 

Australia, strategically has one of the most expensive costs for total transport trips in the world because of its large size and sparse population, and we could reduce transport costs on every single consumer item we buy, and develop multi billion dollar tourist niches, just by dumping Federal and State Taxes.

 

Instead, Lithium Propane gas price for vehicles is pushed up as far as the market will bear - in fact above that since LP Gas power isn't really a viable option when you take into account maintenance costs.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

For transmission of solar power from sunny Alice to cloudy Melbourne you are going to use what? The German comparison thing just wont cut the mustard due to two facts (at least) .We live on a continent of 7,7 MILLION km2 , Germany is 360 THOUSAND km2. Australian population density is 3 people per km2 ...........For Germany it's 235!............ These two facts conspire to make it IMPOSSIBLE to compare power consumption prices and usage. Yes you could cover the Simpson Desert with solar panels and wind farms. So how you going to get the power across a continent, say 2000 kms .in each direction....Want to pay for that in your next bill?......................You can live off solar energy alone, part time..... My mate did it for 20 years. (12 panels and batteries) But don't ask what time he went to bed or how much TV he watched....or how much LPG and diesel he consumed.....It wasn't cheap...My airco is 5kw....... How many panels would I need to run that?......Oh Dear, I can't have solar panels cause the council wont let me cut down any trees. "Bad for the environment " they said!....

You make valid points, Geoff. Our national grid still has some way to go, but governments have been happy to spend heaps on power lines in the past. One former NSW government minister was asked to approve about $150k to upgrade the White Cliffs solar power station. Instead he closed it and ordered the construction of a power line to bring in coal-fired electricity. (The plonker was rewarded for his ministerial ineptitude with a cushy job in London.)

 

Several technologies show promise for short-term storage of solar power, including some Australian -invented capacitors.

 

As Robin Williams' Science Show predicted a few years back, when electric cars become common and are plugged in when parked, their battery packs can be used as a distributed storage system. One thing about the future- it will surprise us.

 

 

[Soleair]

It seems crazy to me that not every house in Australia is fitted with rooftop solar arrays. Certainly this should be the case for all new builds.

 

Australia has the highest average solar radiation per square metre of any continent in the world.

 

The annual solar radiation falling on Australia is approximately 58 million petajoules (PJ), approximately 10 000 times Australia’s annual

 

energy consumption.

 

So it is plain to see that every house could become a net generator instead of a consumer. And with the technology already here - not 'coming soon' - each household can easily generate sufficient power to run 2 runabout electric cars. And ISIS will probably see to it that battery technology advances much more quickly than previously.

 

I run rooftop photovoltaic panels plus solar water heating. We have a backup immersion heater that's been on for less than 12 hours this winter, and never in summer.

 

My solar array will never repay me the capital cost, as I am only paid 6 cents for electricity I generate, compared to 32 cents per unit for that which I buy back. And of course I pay an additional fixed price for use of the electrical distribution network (poles & wires). So I need to generate more than 5 times my consumption to break even, then half as much again to pay for the connection costs.

 

This is not sufficient incentive to expand the market. If we are to pay for the distribution network separately then we should be paid market price for the power we feed into the grid.

 

In this way, within a very few years Australia could be almost free from dependence on damaging - and diminishing - fossil fuels.

 

Bruce

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

For transmission of solar power from sunny Alice to cloudy Melbourne you are going to use what? The German comparison thing just wont cut the mustard due to two facts (at least) .We live on a continent of 7,7 MILLION km2 , Germany is 360 THOUSAND km2. Australian population density is 3 people per km2 ...........For Germany it's 235!............ These two facts conspire to make it IMPOSSIBLE to compare power consumption prices and usage. Yes you could cover the Simpson Desert with solar panels and wind farms. So how you going to get the power across a continent, say 2000 kms .in each direction....Want to pay for that in your next bill?......................You can live off solar energy alone, part time..... My mate did it for 20 years. (12 panels and batteries) But don't ask what time he went to bed or how much TV he watched....or how much LPG and diesel he consumed.....It wasn't cheap...My airco is 5kw....... How many panels would I need to run that?......Oh Dear, I can't have solar panels cause the council wont let me cut down any trees. "Bad for the environment " they said!....

well I'd argue that if the Germans don't have a sunny Alice why do we need one? Sure the panels at such a location will produce more per panel per day than ones in Melbourne, but I suspect any production gains will be lost in transmission, so go back to having them local and transmitting only a few blocks at most if at all possible.

 

I'd also argue that if the average house can support enough space to support more than your annual power needs as mine does (32 Sanyo 250w panels, or 6.5kW producing around 18kWh per day and hot water by a 40 evacuated tube solar system) why look further afield than what we already are using. I do accept that not every single house will be able to do that but if more can than cant then I personally cant see why we wouldn't proceed.

 

The size of the country would to me only be an issue if there were no transmission lines but they are already in and an element of everyones electricity bill. The aim is to use the transmission lines for small scale generation as little as possible, if we are regularly sending West coast produced power to the east coast then something is wrong. Not saying it would never happen, it will, but ideally infrequently. Also not saying we don't need baseline production capability we do, but instead of it being totally baseline it should be used to supplement that produced in other ways. Changes to transmission lines to support only becomes necessary if the average production for an area becomes greater than the average use (actually the peak use!) for the area because at the end of the day the poles and wires don't care which way the current flows, just that it is flowing either to an area in cloud, or from an area in sunlight. Given that I don't know many who are producing way more than they themselves use I don't think that issue of production being grossly more than an areas consumption, is likely to be a problem for some time yet.

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

Just remember, everyone, the next time your house or office is a bit cold, turn those heaters off and go put on warm sox, or the next time it is a bit hot, make sure you turn off those fans or AC units.

 

 

 

Adjust your fridge/freezer so that you aren't selfishly keeping your food cold, and turn your pool pumps off too so that you don't use too much power.

 

 

 

We all need to do our bit, you know, to stop that naughty coal fired power stations from supplying the power that the community needs.

 

 

 

In the meantime the horse racing industry on the "prime agricultural land" in the Hunter will continue to induce the great unwashed masses to binge-drink & blow their cash gambling on racing while the new landed gentry squattocracy & a couple of Saudis with our best interests at heart continue to control that industry ......... while all flying in on their Gulfstreams.

 

 

 

The old bumper sticker said "Ban Mining. Let the masses freeze in the dark." Well just wait until there are rolling blackouts here in a year or 2 and watch how the average citizen insists on and votes for secure base-load power.

 

 

 

It is secure base-load power that underpins & provides almost all that we have and the only 2 real options are coal or nuclear. Your choice.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Coal is end of life technology, renewables are continuing to get more productive. There are too many countries [mostly western Europe] that rely on imported energy, they'll keep pumping money into renewables until they are cheaper than fossil fuels.

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

Coal is end of life technology, renewables are continuing to get more productive. There are too many countries [mostly western Europe] that rely on imported energy, they'll keep pumping money into renewables until they are cheaper than fossil fuels.

G'day FT.

 

 

 

But do you reckon that you and I will see it happen?

 

 

 

I'll bet ya that coal or nuclear will still be the source of base-load power world-wide in 2050.

 

 

 

And remember that it takes a heap of base-load power to make each voltaic cell.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Predicting the future is impossible, who would have thought the internet would have worked in 1990?

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

Predicting the future is impossible, who would have thought the internet would have worked in 1990?

Or that the same "Scientist Class" at CSIRO, BOM, the UN and elsewhere could have got it so 100% wrong on the Millennium Bug/Y2K doom and gloom.

 

 

 

Or when the value of V8 cars crashed by 70% when our learned scientist classes confidently predicted that the world was going to run out of petrol in late 1978.

 

 

 

When evaluating the data that we all receive, we need to bear in mind that the scientists at CSIRO/BOM/UN & elsewhere will do anything for a funding grant or national publicity ..... and there is good money in Global Warming funding + a spot on the Today Show for a good doom and gloom story. There has also been an organised push to have those organisations infiltrated by radical environmentalists. When considering the data that they spew out, just think of it with the same level of confidence that you have in the staff of CASA.

 

 

 

I have a friend who actually sold a property in Engadine (a Sydney suburb) because the doom and gloom merchants had him worried about sea level rise, and he was over a hundred meters AMSL.

 

 

 

I believe in BEWARE ................... Balanced Environment Without A Ratbag Element.

 

 

[skeptic36]

What about Hydro?

 

It is not a dam that causes problems, it is the management of the dam. I watch an enormous amount of energy flow past my property in the form of floods, doing nothing else but damage. The technology already exists and is proven to harness this.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Geoff, I have seen since the advent of the internet ideas evolve much faster as its getting easier to shift information around.

 

One of the things announced this year: clear solar panels. Just imagine, you can stack solar panels over a mirror!

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

What about Hydro?It is not a dam that causes problems, it is the management of the dam. I watch an enormous amount of energy flow past my property in the form of floods, doing nothing else but damage. The technology already exists and is proven to harness this.

Skepy,

 

 

 

I agree but "Community Consultation" and Protesters-For-Hire would make it almost impossible to build a new dam in all but the most very very favourable of places.

 

 

 

Can you image the hoo-haa if the Snowy Mountains Scheme were to be attempted today?

 

 

 

It would never get done.

 

 

 

One of the most logical & justifiable schemes remains to dam a few of the east flowing rivers on the NSW Nth Coast, only harvest in those dams during periods of high flow, generate some hydro and also pump some of that water the relatively short distance west over the escarpment and into the west flowing catchments that feed the Murray Darling Basin. But that will never get done either.

 

 

 

One of the next best alternatives, IMHO, is Geothermal Power and from what I have seen of it in NZ it appears to be a good solution, but we are in too stable an area I assume.

 

 

 

FT,

 

 

 

I had voltaic cells on my sailplane and in numerous 12 volt applications around me now and they are great. Even maybe for small numbers of people, but base-loading for the community as a whole?

 

 

 

And has anyone fully thought through the replacement cost and energy consumption at the end of a voltaic cell's life?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I have a friend who actually sold a property in Engadine (a Sydney suburb) because the doom and gloom merchants had him worried about sea level rise, and he was over a hundred meters AMSL.

What a pity he didn't get the free handouts from the bikini clad Metric Conversion Board maids.........it was only going to rise a hundred millimetres!

 

 

[turboplanner]

And has anyone fully thought through the replacement cost and energy consumption at the end of a voltaic cell's life?

I tend to speed read the emails from my sustainable friends and then quickly delete them, but I recall one study which reported that cell life may be shorter than the pay back point for a lot of systems.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I agree but "Community Consultation" and Protesters-For-Hire would make it almost impossible to build a new dam in all but the most very very favourable of places.

 

Can you image the hoo-haa if the Snowy Mountains Scheme were to be attempted today?

 

 

 

It would never get done.

 

 

 

One of the most logical & justifiable schemes remains to dam a few of the east flowing rivers on the NSW Nth Coast, only harvest in those dams during periods of high flow, generate some hydro and also pump some of that water the relatively short distance west over the escarpment and into the west flowing catchments that feed the Murray Darling Basin. But that will never get done either.

 

 

 

One of the next best alternatives, IMHO, is Geothermal Power and from what I have seen of it in NZ it appears to be a good solution, but we are in too stable an area I assume.

Surprisingly in Victoria the community didn't raise any significant objections to a proposal to build a reserved area on the Mitchell River into a dam, but at the time Victoria was running out of water after a 12 year drought with no guarantee that it would break any time soon so the government opted for a massive Desal Plant.........and it rained.

 

The most intriguing proposal for Victoria which the government rejected out of hand was a pipeline from the mountains in northern Tasmania where the river flow at an altitude which would allow a pump-free siphon was such that Melbourne would only consume about 3% of the flow. Today there is a North - South pipeline between Melbourne and the Goulburn River which could feed the Murray and the existing infrastructure for Adelaide.

 

Australia has a MASSIVE amount of fresh water flowing out to sea from the ranges including those you mentioned. Ion Idriess travelled the Great Divide from Victoria to Queensland and even further into Far North Queensland and came up with a scheme to turn rivers inland. He wrote a book about it called "The Great Boomerang" When he wrote it the earthmoving equipment available had little more capacity than men with shovels, but there would be plenty of opportunities today.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Geoff, there is a university in the UK working on a "spray on" solar panel. Pretty sure solar panels are mostly silicon which can be recycled fairly easily.

 

 

[octave]

Re Cell life I installed solar panels on my house for a stand alone system in 1990. I lived in this house until 2011, I now rent this house out and periodically go to the house to see how the systems functioning and I can tell you the the panels are still functioning well, from memory they did come with a 20 or 25 year guarantee.

 

 

[Russ]

Geoff, there is a university in the UK working on a "spray on" solar panel. Pretty sure solar panels are mostly silicon which can be recycled fairly easily.

Yr or 2 back, chap won inventors award here oz, for paint on solar generation, then read later, he was bought out by ??....that's the last I heard of his invention.

 

Recall 1 query from the panel....how long does it last before performance degrades, ....answer, 7....8 yrs, then just repaint the roof again.

 

Another great idea........gawn. ( well, shelved anyway )

 

 

[geoffreywh]

I would have thought that gas fired electricity generation was the way to go, instead of shipping the LPG (Liquified P? Gas) off to China and Japan for short term gain and long term loss.......

 

 

[turboplanner]

I would have thought that gas fired electricity generation was the way to go, instead of shipping the LPG (Liquified P? Gas) off to China and Japan for short term gain and long term loss.......

 

I wonder if experts actually sit down and do cost benefit analyses, or whether Cabinet just put it on the agenda and use their own collective wisdom. I keep hearing the Victorian desal plant go the go ahead because one member of cabinet said "But what if it doesn't rain again" which was used to write off further dam capacity.

 

 

[Methusala]

Whenever progressive, scientific evidence based (97% of climate scientists) ideas clash with the selfish interests of 'established players', then rational arguments go out of the window. I asked in a previous post what a primary producer was doing watering livestock with potable drinking water. No answer. Is it still ok to water sheep with drinking water during a drought? Short memories indeed when we forget how perilously close communities came to drying out completely during the '10 year drought'. ACC is well supported by rock solid evidence and, no, I don't feel that I need to state the arguments here - they are available publicly and have been canvassed 'for ever'. My point is that specious arguments such as China is worse or the climate is actually cooling are wheeled out as though they are fact. Renewable energy is clean efficient and as close to non polluting as you can imagine. The fact that a federal Govt is in denial does not mean that King Canute was right. We have everything to lose if we don't go with the rest of the world on this one. BTW my nom-de-plume is meant as a very light-hearted jest. Regards, Don

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

interesting the talk about PV cell life.....I believe Manufacturers talk about degradation over life at a rate of about 0.3% per year.....Even NES is likely to die before panels do.

 

that said there are any number of 30+ year old panels which when tested against the original specification show no degradation at all. (URL's below)

 

Whether that 0 degradation can apply to modern cells I guess will remain to be seen because a 30year old panel was built in an entirely different way to modern panels, and in terms of real costs for orders of magnitude greater costs.....

 

But as said previously the cells are only a part of the story the inverter, the device that turns DC from the panels into 240v single or 3 phase AC is the device that I doubt will live as long as the panels.

 

References to claim of no real lose against specifications:-

 

http://www.presse.uni-oldenburg.de/einblicke/54/files/assets/downloads/page0009.pdf

 

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/testing-thirty-year-old-photovoltaic-module

 

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/12/27/solar-panels-creating-electricity-for-much-longer-than-20-years/