How Australia Perfected Solar Power and Then Went Back to Coal

[Guest Captain1]

As a matter of relevant interest, I was on business in Inner Mongolia recently and in all of the new industrial estates that I visited, each street light was individually powered by a solar array AND a wind generator, which I guess fed a battery in each pole.

 

 

 

See the below photo ............

 

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Just found the below photo as well, so the same system is also on each pole on the main expressways too.

 

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[turboplanner]

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect is that the anti global warming backlash, well funded by fossil fuel industries, is playing on the growing distrust of science already endemic in the USA. Surveys show alarmingly low levels of scientific knowledge among ordinary Americans. The insidious influence of bible-bashing media is one major cause of this ignorance. An ominous trend for a fading Superpower that Australia has become very much dependent on.The constant pressure from climate skeptics can only make that ignorance worse.

The fossil fuel industry was always going to defend its turf, but the anti global warming backlash got its legs from vocal community members as a result of the stupid IPCC strategy of releasing provably false information, and the vehicle primarily used for the backlash was the emerging social media, which has also produced massively incorrect information until we have the present situation where no one knows what's going on.

 

I haven't seen any bible bashing going on; maybe its just random in northern NSW.

 

Any survey of Americans would show a low interest in anything except the town hamburger joint - no trend there; but there always have and always will be some of the most brilliant minds in the world which motivate the others to follow.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Ppl forget that big coal needs a lot of investment in "poles and wires" to deliver a kilowatt of power. Renewables breaks down a lot of the hidden costs of running a power network.

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

Hey Tubb,

 

 

 

Re my post # 126, given that the annual temperature range in Inner Mongolia is about + 105 C to minus 50 C, can you imagine the maintenance requirements on those thousands (maybe millions) of Chinese manufactured batteries, wind generators and solar panels sitting outside & unprotected year after year?

 

 

 

However, looking on the bright side, that maintenance and the cost of replacements is probably covered by concerned environmentalist citizens from Paddington or Toorak or Fortitude Valley giving their time free of charge, backed up by Greenpeace or WWFN funding.

 

 

 

Maybe Meth will even consider going over there to help them with his ladder made from recycled cardboard.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

 

 

PS Hey Meth. I saw a big buck eastern grey kangaroo drinking some town-water on my place this morning. I feel terrible. What should I do? Shoot the Roo, go to confession, or send a $5 penance to some environmental fund that pays their CEO half a million a year?

 

 

 

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Perhaps someone saw "L" in LPG and confused Lithium with Liquified? In NZ it's (was) sold as CNG...different system to our LPG

 

 

[turboplanner]

Meth would love it over there; he could get right up the Mongols and other filth who put lights on streets and highways when they already have sustainable lights on their cars, and explain to them they are just making the Chinese and other filth rich by buying all that manufactured product, and how China now has thousands of millionaires who travel the world in corporate jets, stay at Sheraton Mirage, and how the Chinese build those lights from steel manufactured by Australians - the filthy ones, who buy speedboats and Jet skis and eat down at McDonalds, and how the Americans and other filth have secretly used McDonalds to take over Inner Mongolia.

 

PS I was shocked to find a sparrow drinking from a sheep trough this morning and gave him a Winchester ear ache, unfortunately blowing a hole in the bottom of the trough, and potable water is pouring all over the place. Went to the local steel supply to buy a patch, and they are all out. Something about Steelmark having sold all their steel to China for environmentally friendly and sustainable lighting in inner Mongolia.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Captain, those street lights are probably LED so they use two fitfh's of bugger all power. Chinese now how to make stuff last [insert joke about their great wall outlasting our rabbit proof fence], they just export their rubbish and import ours.

 

 

[gandalph]

It is good to see passionate arguments being put for both sides of an issue. It is sad though, when the arguments decompose into personal insults and shrill name calling .

 

Sometime we learn more about the posters than about the topic and it's not always pleasant. Perhaps some of the more passionate amongst us could develop the habit of drafting a reply and then waiting a few minutes before pressing the "post" button?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Perhaps someone saw "L" in LPG and confused Lithium with Liquified? In NZ it's (was) sold as CNG...different system to our LPG

It's intriguing, it was Lithium Propane in the 1960's, but morphed into Liquid Petroleum around the time of the 1979 fuel shortage crisis (which was manufactured by suppliers)

 

I suspect it was a marketing name to ease petrol users into thinking it was much the same as petrol (there was a lot of discussion about cars running on gas potentially blowing up)

 

CNG is compressed natural gas - pure methane and is sold in Australia as an alternative fuel, but is struggling because:

 

It burns slower so power is down around 10% compared to it's equivalent diesel engine.

 

It burns a lot more volume than petrol, so bigger tanks are needed, and that leads to space problems.

 

It is compressed flammable gas stored at 2000 psi, so needs very strong tanks, and that leads to weight problems.

 

I was involved in trialing an 8 tonne truck with CNG conversion around 1989, and it worked OK, was about 10% down in power which was OK for local deliveries, but had limited range, and if it ran out of fuel, had to be towed back to one of two CNG supply location in Melbourne.

 

The CNG marketers tried selling factory based compressors and mobile compressors (you can connect to your natural gas supply at your home, but it hasn't been a success so far because of all the obstacles mentioned above.

 

This is a good case study for anyone thinking about introducing any new system, electric or otherwise into the Australian transport scene where people travel from anywhere they are to anywhere they want to be and expect a full infrastructure in between.

 

SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) is another case study in how a new product can be introduced, and has been successfully established in Australia within about ten years. In this system a tank of urea is fitted to the vehicle and urea is injected into the exhaust system behind the engine, and this cleans up the exhaust emissions. Its advantage is that being away from the engine there is no reduction in engine life, and more powerful, more fuel efficient and less costly "dirty" engines can be used and still produce clean exhaust emissions. The downside was that everyone was scared they would be caught in a town without an SCR pump, but in a research exercise I did in 2008 for a sales training programme, I found the Urea suppliers had set up a network which would allow a truck to travel anywhere on Australian highways within tank range except for the Qld/NT run to Darwin, and drivers could get a pack to go in the truck for that leg - so the supply infrastructure was in place before the product really needed it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It is good to see passionate arguments being put for both sides of an issue. It is sad though, when the arguments decompose into personal insults and shrill name calling .

Sometime we learn more about the posters than about the topic and it's not always pleasant. Perhaps some of the more passionate amongst us could develop the habit of drafting a reply and then waiting a few minutes before pressing the "post" button?

Perhaps if you went back a bit further and read some of the comments there you would understand the retaliation. I've never been called filth before in my life, and if someone throws out an unprovoked and totally inaccurate label, I'm going to retaliate.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Increased acidity in the oceans? Coral bleaching on the reef? Polar bears going hungry? Glaciers disappearing at an unheard of rate? Increasing intensity and frequency of wild fires around the world? Deserts encroaching on arable land? Tell them their just dreaming! Short memories and attention spans. Methane...around 25x more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. The tundra is lousy with it. Some gamble you guys are prepared to take.

Man, there's no doubt that the climate IS changing. All those things are a natural result of that; the polar bears went out on the ice in the first place in response to climate change in the past, after all - they're related to brown bears genetically, I understand.

 

The part of the science that I think not yet sufficiently well proven, is that this change is primarily due to mankind's use of fossil fuel; I suspect it's hubris on the part of mankind to imagine we are sufficiently significant compared to volcanos etc that we can significantly affect climate. Regardless of that, we are being willfully stupid in the way we're using resources, and that's sufficient reason to rein it in, in my books.

 

The progress with LED lighting makes it possible to greatly reduce the amount of electricity that is used for that purpose; but that's a very minor part of our electricity bill; what it needs is a radical development in refrigeration; try turning off your fridges, freezers and air conditioners and see what happens to your power usage.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I have a bunch of LED Lighting and I have to report that at lest with the ones I have had, that life is no better than the CCFL Fluro's they replaced.

 

In all cases of failure the actual LED elements were fine, the failure was the mini switchmode powersupply that converts 240v AC to the low voltage DC that the actual LED's need.

 

So no more cheap ebay LED's for me, the quality of the electronics was simply appalling.

 

Perhaps the name brand ones that are many times more expensive might actually last the distance, but I'll let others test that for me. Perhaps some here can comment on their experience? Power benefits aren't that much better than CCFL's but you presumably don't have the same mercury issue

 

Andy

 

 

[fly_tornado]

why not rewire your lighting circuit to 5v battery and solar panels?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Because I'm not at all convinced that battery's have any real place yet in everyone's home. Their life is not great and the costs for replacement aren't insignificant and they are not exactly environmentally friendly devices themselves.....

 

The issue is I stupidly expected a $10 device to have a 1cm cubed switchmode powersupply of fantastic quality and until someone is making millions per day that is unlikely. I still think that approach is the best solution for the majority of Australians just not quite yet....we need some more economies of scale.......and to convince the leading globe manufacturers who are selling us a product that they know is designed obsolescence with a product that they know if made right might never need replacing.......good luck with that

 

Andy

 

 

[fly_tornado]

how big a battery do you need to run a bunch of LED lights?

 

 

[gandalph]

Perhaps if you went back a bit further and read some of the comments there you would understand the retaliation. I've never been called filth before in my life, and if someone throws out an unprovoked and totally inaccurate label, I'm going to retaliate.

Easy there lad!

 

My comment was a generalization and most certainly NOT directed at anyone in particular. It's one of the pitfalls of forum threads that the timing of a reply may sometimes indicate that was in response to the previous post. Thats why I did not quote any particular post. I was to trying to avoid any sense of finger pointing at specific posters.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I have a bunch of LED Lighting and I have to report that at lest with the ones I have had, that life is no better than the CCFL Fluro's they replaced.

In all cases of failure the actual LED elements were fine, the failure was the mini switchmode powersupply that converts 240v AC to the low voltage DC that the actual LED's need.

 

So no more cheap ebay LED's for me, the quality of the electronics was simply appalling.

 

Perhaps the name brand ones that are many times more expensive might actually last the distance, but I'll let others test that for me. Perhaps some here can comment on their experience? Power benefits aren't that much better than CCFL's but you presumably don't have the same mercury issue

 

Andy

I have had Philips branded LED lamps above our kitchen bench for nearly four years. They were very expensive (being very new technology then) but they have been without any faults so far.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

how big a battery do you need to run a bunch of LED lights?

Well to get reasonable lighting levels you would need circa 30w of lighting in a lounge room and even then that isn't going to be real bright. Assume 2 rooms of light on at any time, winter so you'll need 6hrs of light. Assume no voltage conversion cause that introduces loss. 60w 12 v equals 5amps of draw for 6hrs you'd need circa 30Ah. Assume for battery life extension you don't want to discharge below 20% so you need 150Ah deep cycle battery. Jaycar have one here at $699 ea........ http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SB1822

 

Might get 10 years out of it...but probably not

 

<edit> the specs identify at 20% DOD (depth of discharge) it's good for 1800 cycles or nearly 5years. At 80% DOD you get 1.5yrs so maybe there is argument for buy smaller replace more often...but I haven't looked at cost vs cost

 

 

[Methusala]

Anybody who claims to be the repository of all wisdom is bound to come a cropper. Can't come soon enough for some. I don't think that there has ever been enough human wisdom to out forcast nature. There is though the precautionary principle that states loosely that if the outcome of an action cannot be forcast in advance then we should proceed very carefully. Most of us aviators would see the commonsense in that. It is common in debate these days to claim that we should attempt to not damage the future of our progeny by our current actions. The scientific observations of a steady and increasing elevation of CO2 in the atmosphere correlates to a rising temperature trend is worrying and should alert those precautionary instincts.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...I haven't seen any bible bashing going on; maybe its just random in northern NSW...Any survey of Americans would show a low interest in anything except the town hamburger joint - no trend there; but there always have and always will be some of the most brilliant minds in the world which motivate the others to follow.

Enormous damage caused by a stupid blunder by a few at the IPCC- zealoutry has no place in science.

 

What I mean by bible-bashing is the huge influence of churches and the hundreds of religious radio and TV stations in the USA. These put faith before reason; to them science is only okay if it doesn't conflict with stories passed down from ancient sheep herders.

 

I agree with you about the inward-looking nature of most Americans, and also that although the US has some of the worst problems, American enterprise comes up with innovative solutions

 

 

[turboplanner]

Don't worry too much about the Bible bashers, sure there was a boom in TV shows, which really were money grabbers, but I've never seen much in daily life, or too many churches for that matter; more beggars in the streets, unswept dirty footpaths which we wouldn't tolerate, and dirty piles of snow in the streets all winter.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Don't worry too much about the Bible bashers, sure there was a boom in TV shows, which really were money grabbers, but I've never seen much in daily life, or too many churches for that matter; more beggars in the streets, unswept dirty footpaths which we wouldn't tolerate, and dirty piles of snow in the streets all winter.

A lot of America is a mess...and people are still risking their lives to get in!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well you want to see Mexico - four year olds begging in the street to a prepared script.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Anybody who claims to be the repository of all wisdom is bound to come a cropper. Can't come soon enough for some. I don't think that there has ever been enough human wisdom to out forcast nature. There is though the precautionary principle that states loosely that if the outcome of an action cannot be forcast in advance then we should proceed very carefully. Most of us aviators would see the commonsense in that. It is common in debate these days to claim that we should attempt to not damage the future of our progeny by our current actions. The scientific observations of a steady and increasing elevation of CO2 in the atmosphere correlates to a rising temperature trend is worrying and should alert those precautionary instincts.

Correlation is NOT causation. The correlation, to the extent is is valid and not something that has been "massaged" for political ends, does mean we need to study the situation, and I would assume that people are doing so; but there's so much B***T floating around that I, for one, haven't heard what they have found. CSIRO is being, in my view, responsibly reticent about making any premature pronouncement. It took from 1947 to 1983 for CSIRO to determine, scientifically, the "big picture" on cloud seeding; why do you imagine it will take less time to determine the realities of fossil fuel & CO2? You sound remarkably like a religious fanatic on this subject; let's calm down and get some real science - and I don't mean the crap that has come out of NOAA.

 

I say again, even a precautionary approach would suggest that Governments could back off their tax imposts on bio fuels. If you want to hammer anybody on this issue, I suggest you ask your MHR why the Govt still taxes biofuel?

 

 

[octave]

what does CSIRO say http://www.csiro.au/Portals/Multimedia/CSIROvod/Climate-Change-Greenhouse-Gas-Factor.aspx