Political Correctness Rant

[Jerry_Atrick]

I agree with Octave, and we should always be looking at better ideas. But I can see where a visor may not be great in a physically charged/violent situation, where they rip it off the head of the police (and may do damage just doing that), and then spit at them. It looks bad, but may not be bad.

 

You raise a very good point, and illustrates the juxtaposition of what can be considered torture and valid action to constrain aggressive behaviour, while keeping those at risk safe,  Again, sadly, the press don't often help herre. The pictures you have posted look a "little" over the top, because it covers the head. As long as the device is not constraining and allows a free and full flow of air, then it should be OK, except for those that may have some phobia or are under the influence of some mind-bending substance.

 

If the magistrates (are they all stipendary in Aus, now) take a lenient view of people who spit at the police, then that is an issue for government to fix. Over here, if you spit at the police and even if it hits their clothes, by itself, you are not going to jail, but if there is an aggravating factor, or there is a co-crime being committed, it will help send you there. There was a case where someone spat at a policeman in a protest, it landed on his overcoat, and the chap went to prison. That probably wouldn't be a prison sentence today, regardless of who you spat at, but dust up a copper in any way, and better be prepared for some torture 😉

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

9 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I don't really know what you do with juvenile offenders who have no understanding of normal social behaviour. These little thugs are totally uncontrollable, they obey no instructions, no laws, and want to set the pace on their terms, at all times.

 

They lock them up, they simply trash and burn every facility given to them. You ought to see the unbelievable level of damage to the juvenile detention facilities here in W.A. (Banksi Hill).

So, after totally destroying Banksia Hill via outright violent trashing and smashing everything in sight - then setting fire to it - thus making Banksia Hill totally unusable - the prison authorities transfer the juveniles to the adult prison at Casuarina, where the facilities and prisoners are more tightly controlled.

So that brings out wails and cries from all the bleeding hearts, telling us that this is Nazi treatment and torture of prisoners, and children should never be in an adult jail.

But the bleeding hearts really need to to be taken to the facilities to see the animal-like behaviour of these thugs. They are only intent on massive damage and destruction and theft and assault, every waking minute of their day (or night, as most prefer to operate at night).

 

They spit on guards and police at every opportunity, they refuse to follow any orders, generally having to be bodily handled to get them to do even basic things. They throw faeces at warders and police at every opportunity. Little wonder the warders and police have little time for them. It's obvious even the authorities are at a loss as to how to control them, and where to start on any rehabilitation of them.

I understand, but in the case of people, figthing fire with fire rarely works. There is a difference between little time, and some physical restraint, to blatant [edit for effect] gratuitous  physical and sexual abuse, which has been coming out of these places.. Maybe that is the catalyst for them violently trashing the place?

Edited January 20, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[octave]

1 minute ago, old man emu said:

You must have been writing this while I was posting mine to include pictures. As you can see, a spit hood is very similar to an insect hood. It's not anything like a sugar bag.

 

 

My observation was more about the picture you posted which the elastic neck band.   I am merely posing the question about whether there are better ways.   If someone restrained me and put elastic around my neck I might freak out a little. Procedures must be analyzed and not driven by emotion from either direction. 

[red750]

1 minute ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

juvenile offenders who have no understanding of normal social behaviour

They know when they are doing the wrong thing. If they don't it's a failure of they parents, and they, too, should be held to account. You can't tell me that they don't know stealing a car and hooning around is not legal. Nor that guy who walked down the street and kicked the side mirror off every car he passed. Nor those who go out shooting up houses. Lock up the lot of them and throw away the key. There is NO excuse. 

[red750]

4 minutes ago, octave said:

If someone restrained me and put elastic around my neck I might freak out a little.

If they had to resort to such measures, you would deserve it.

[Jerry_Atrick]

3 minutes ago, octave said:

If someone restrained me and put elastic around my neck I might freak out a little.

I am in that same camp. I have not had a crew neck T-short or jumper for years. (Ironically I got one of each this week, though).

 

The elastic can be very light though with little tension.. But I would still be quitee uncomfy. But thinking about it, if my adrenaline was that hyigh that I would spit at anyone, let alone the police, I would probably not be processing what they put over my head.

[facthunter]

IF it was a string of pearls or diamonds I'd put up with the feeling of it if I could keep them. Silly men wear tight collars and ties. Priests wear their collar backwards'  Nev

Edited January 20, 2023 by facthunter
spelling

[Bruce Tuncks]

Jerry, I liked your thing on illegal immigrants but my understanding is different. I think the law was written at a time when we felt bad about our treatment of jews during ww2.  We never thought about overpopulated places providing economic refugees, but this is what we are dealing with today.  So yes, while you are right about the refugees being treated "illegally ",

it is just that the law has not kept up.

[Jerry_Atrick]

The convention was passed in 1951, but from memory, Australia didn't sign it until some time in the 60s and adopt it into law until the 70s.

[old man emu]

Unless you have been involved in dealing with obnoxious people in custody you have no idea of the things they will do. How long would you last working in a custody area, making sure that detainees don't injure themselves while they are bashing and kicking a CLEAR PERSPEX cell doors? Note I say clear, translucent barriers. Would you appreciate having to watch women rubbing menstrual fluid all over walls, or wither sex hurling shit like an enraged gorilla?

 

And why are the parents and carers of these little animals going off about their darlings being locked up? Isn't it the function of a parent/carer to teach their child right from wrong?  Those who scream the loudest about the response of authorities to such behaviour have probably never even walked into a police station to even ask for directions, let alone spent a few hours observing behaviour in custody areas.

[onetrack]

The juvenile hoods are not becoming violent and abusive, thanks to their incarceration - they were like it, before they were arrested and imprisoned.

They had to be incarcerated because society was sick of their rotten behaviour that means no-one feels safe anywhere, and nothing is safe from their predations.

 

The police had to double their police numbers in a number of Northern W.A. towns to try and retain control and protect residents - but even now, they are still struggling.

Many of these juvenile thugs are foetal-alcohol-syndrome children. They have problems with learning, attention, memory, problem solving, along with poor coordination, impulsiveness, and speech and hearing impairments, and they're virtually impossible to school.

[old man emu]

1 minute ago, onetrack said:

Many of these juvenile thugs are foetal-alcohol-syndrome children.

With a Voice to Parliament

[facthunter]

On certain days the School used to have a day where parents used to come along and speak  to teachers about little Jonnies progress or lack of it. We used to refer to them as IP's . (IRATE PARENTS.) Their definition of a Juvenile delinquent was "Somebody Elses KID".  Nev

Edited January 20, 2023 by facthunter

[Jerry_Atrick]

Whoa! OK.. I think we have dispensed with the fallacy that Australia does not commit torture and are into the realms of whether or not it is justiifed. Whether or not it is, it is still torture.

 

17 minutes ago, red750 said:

They know when they are doing the wrong thing. If they don't it's a failure of they parents, and they, too, should be held to account. You can't tell me that they don't know stealing a car and hooning around is not legal. Nor that guy who walked down the street and kicked the side mirror off every car he passed. Nor those who go out shooting up houses. Lock up the lot of them and throw away the key. There is NO excuse. 

The examples you give, and a myriad of others are probably true. In fact, a "mate" when I was at mid years of high school, used to steal cars, and would take pride in rippin antennas (remember them) and wing mirrors off. And, yeah, he knew he was doing wrong. But, to be honest, he was unhinged and made Trump look sane and normal. What I can say is I had a bit of a tough childhood and could have gone either way... His family was twice as dysfunctional, and a bunch of us stayed mates to help him get through. Last time I saw him, which was when I was back in Aus for my father's funeral, he was still a little unhinged, but had for a long time been more or less responsible. He managed to get some mental health care under Medicare/publich health and they diagnosed him with a couple of conditions (autism being one of them), put him an a therapy plan, and he seemed OK. Just locking him up would have definitely resulted in the sort of behaviour  Onetrack describes.

22 minutes ago, red750 said:

If they had to resort to such measures, you would deserve it.

Really? Let's assume it was Octave and not some common low-life who was actually spitting at police. I only know Octave'sd forum persona, but assuiming it represents his real-life persona, I would consider that behaviour to be extremely abnormal for him to kick off like that.. He might be under extreme stress at the time.. maybe the drink he had a lunch was spiked.. Does he really deserve it? I would prefer that the police are under threat because we cannot know what has caused bad behaviour. And I would hope devices are designed with that thought in mind.

 

21 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Unless you have been involved in dealing with obnoxious people in custody you have no idea of the things they will do. How long would you last working in a custody area, making sure that detainees don't injure themselves while they are bashing and kicking a CLEAR PERSPEX cell doors? Note I say clear, translucent barriers. Would you appreciate having to watch women rubbing menstrual fluid all over walls, or wither sex hurling shit like an enraged gorilla?

Clearly not normal behaviour, though, undoubtedly often incurred by the custody seargent (in the UK... not sure of each state's setup in Aus). Do normal people do this sort of thing, which would imply one or a combination of three things.. these people are under the influence of a sunstance, suffering extreme anxiety, and/or have a menthal health condition..

 

20 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Many of these juvenile thugs are foetal-alcohol-syndrome children. They have problems with learning, attention, memory, problem solving, along with poor coordination, impulsiveness, and speech and hearing impairments, and they're virtually impossible to school.

That provide some potential answers, too..

 

Does any of the above justify torture?

[onetrack]

I believe that calling the treatment of juvenile detainees, "torture", is simply extrapolating the regular treatment that all unco-operative prisoners receive, into something equivalent to what the Gestapo and Japanese Kempeitai handed out.

 

"Torture" is being water-boarded, being confined in small steel cages in the direct hot sun, being forced to kneel with bamboo tied behind your knees, being hit with HV electric prods constantly, having your fingernails torn out, being stripped naked in the depths of Winter, and having ice water thrown over you. That's the true definition of torture.

[Jerry_Atrick]

We'll have to disagree OT.. They are merely example of torture

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, octave said:

 

My observation was more about the picture you posted which the elastic neck band.   I am merely posing the question about whether there are better ways.   If someone restrained me and put elastic around my neck I might freak out a little. Procedures must be analyzed and not driven by emotion from either direction. 

So what do you propose as an effective alternative?

[octave]

2 hours ago, octave said:

 I am merely posing the question about whether there are better ways.

 

This is the question I have posed.    With every procedure or issue this is surely  reasonable questions to asked.  The answer may be "yes it is worlds best practice" and it "does lead to the best outcomes both in the present and future" Perhaps it reduces recidivism.    At no stage have I commented on whether it should an available option or what should be the criteria for use.   

 

A number of posts here are based on anger. I understand this and I feel it myself however justice must not be a function of anger.   I am interested in facts and statistics rather than emotion from either side.

[octave]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Let's assume it was Octave and not some common low-life

That is the nicest thing anyone has said to me lately!😃

[facthunter]

I would not be surprised if foetal alcohol syndrome was quite prevalent and that some of this is GENE altering stuff. Petrol sniffing was rife in places like Port Headland South. The dysfunction of some families must be extreme from some stories I've been told.,. Nev.

[red750]

And why are they allowed to  cover their head when they are caught redhanded? Don't use the innocent till proven guilty rubbish. They were caught redhanded, people should be able to see what scumbags they are. 

[spacesailor]

SO

England really tortured the ' little French dictator ' .

Without ant physical contact,  only .

SILENCE 

He was ' mad as a hatter ' before he died .

His guards were forbidden to say a word to him .

spacesailor

 

[onetrack]

And here we have the crux of the problem - the former head of the W.A. Childrens Court, Denis Reynolds, saying Banksia Hill Juvenile Detention Centre was "not fit for purpose" - yet Mark McGowan, the W.A. Premier, arguing it was - until it was repeatedly destroyed.

 

I'd like to see Denis Reynolds idea of what a Juvenile Detention Centre that IS "fit for purpose", looks like. Whatever it looks like in Denis Reynolds eyes, it will certainly be trashed and destroyed by these little crims - who are simply criminals that must be locked up for the safety of society in general - because these little crims are incapable of functioning as responsible human beings, no matter how much  soft treatment and gentle handling they are given.

 

They have no respect for anyone, and will assault anyone in charge of them, at the first opportunity they can get.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-20/former-judge-takes-swipe-at-mark-mcgowan-banksia-hill-comments/101877784

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by onetrack

[Jerry_Atrick]

I read that article and the information provided seemed to be a little damning to the premier and the system. If Banksia Hill was so great, why was it systematically destroyed. Rolliing lockdowns where kids are kept in their cells for more than 20 hours a day does not sound like a recipe for resolving the issues - just kicking the can down the road and exacerbating it to me. Would I listen to a judge who for many years presided over very serious cases and had the benefit of experts on boths sides tendering evidence to draw a conclusion.. or a pollie who knows they have to ultimate bend to public opinion and prejudices if they want to retain their job.. not matter how ill-informed the public is on these matters?

 

Or what about the artice that that article referred to: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-13/banksia-hill-detention-centre-class-action-claims/101821518

 

Or maybe this one: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-21/secret-restraint-folding-up-banksia-hill-youth-detention-centre/101797454, where they decide not to open up a system of restraint to public scrutiny.

 

If these articles have a semblance of truth, my heart bleeds not only for the kids, but also for society. Are you telling me you think the treatment of these kids in this way is going to make them somehow more hinged and balanced people? Or, are we condemning them to a life of constant depravity because that is how young and free spirited people react to being locked up for all but 3 hours a day?

 

There are no easy answers.. but it can be seen from the rubble of both the buildings and the kids' lives, that this sort of thing is not the answer.

[nomadpete]

As OT points out, many of these inmates are simply continuing the behaviour that got them brought into custody in the first place.

 

Granted, no form of custody will modify (cure) such destructive outbursts. But there are times when violent destructive individuals must be stopped from damaging innocent people and property.

 

Society has been struggling to come up with an answer for hundreds of years.

 

There is no point in whinging about 'inhumane treatment' of people behaving inhumanely unless one can come up with a more pleasant method.

 

Like democracy - it sure aint perfect but it's the best we got at the moment.