Atheist knowledge

[Litespeed]

We could always follow the "logic" of Turbs argument to its logical conclusions

 

- It should be unlawful for society to accept children being brought up parents or carers of only one sex

 

So.....

 

We make it illegal to get divorced or live separated

 

We force widows and widowers (me) to immediately remarry

 

We ban all same sex instituitions such as segregated schools especially religious boarding schools (this one I would happily agree with)

 

We make the number one priority of childrens welfare that two people of different sex are the parents and any other factor is secondary and of little importance

 

Same sex couples should by law be banned of having animals incase they sodomise them (Cory "Barnyard" Bernardi)

 

Sorry but life is not black and white nor is simplistic. We can not licence procreation nor should we licence bringing up children.

 

The anti marriage equality arguments are so very similar to those used to separate unmarried mothers and aboriginal families from their children- the stolen generations. And have no more credence or morality, ethics or actual care about those involved.

 

It is just prejudice and ideology

 

 

[Bruce]

The very existence of gays takes some explaining. A characteristic which would breed itself out, you would think.

 

But what if the female siblings of gays have more children on average and this more than makes up for the ones the gays don't have?

 

Apparently this is really the case. So the "strong liking for males" geneset has no negative evolutionary pressure.

 

 

[Bruce]

There is another argument similar to the Old Koreelah one, and that is how in ice-age hunting parties the ones which liked to share a sleeping-blanket were less likely to freeze to death. The ice ages were the pivotal evolutionary change period leading up to us.

 

 

[dutchroll]

The very existence of gays takes some explaining. A characteristic which would breed itself out, you would think.

Not if, like some personal traits, sexuality is determined by more than one gene. Or a combination of factors.

 

If it takes a combination of these genes to be "switched on" to cause homosexuality, then reproducing relatives will happily keep passing those genes onwards.

 

Not to mention that homosexual people are usually capable of reproducing and sometimes (eg, the closet gay dad) they actually do this before realising they've just talked themselves into acting straight for years when they're really not.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The anti marriage equality arguments

.. are very simple for most.

 

It's slated the some 75% support same sex unions in Oz, I cry bollshot on that, more likely, like me and everyone I know, 75% couldn't give a toss either way. Not caring either way doesn't give the "Pro" movement the right to say it's support. For balance, nor can the "No" movement use that either.

 

What I am appalled at is the publicity it gets when there's serious human issues affecting everybody such as housing, 50% of Australians living week to week, manufacturing, employment, immigration, GW ... These issues affect everybody, inclusive of Gays.

 

China led the world last year in coal reductions, a massive 6% reduction. Go look at how much coal Australia sells to China as well as minerals in general that the whole world is reducing in use.

 

Point is Australia has some very hard times coming, we need to figure it out now and stop wasting time and big money on relatively nonsensical issues such as a piece of paper that all my own children enjoy relationships, including children, while forsaking that piece of paper. Especially when it's an issue that will quite obviously in time be figured out 'in favour'.

 

I also consider that this might be the most selfish, overinflated, political issue I have seen.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Those who enjoy a wealthy, carefree childhood often learn nothing of substance (one may be the next US president).

Well She, or should I say, "Shaky", might not get in.

 

 

[dutchroll]

If they just repealed the law John Howard introduced in the first place (and which he did without a referendum, plebiscite, survey, or even asking his neighbour Dorothy) the entire issue would go away so we could turn our attention to other issues, and presumably the 75% who don't give a toss would still not give a toss.

 

Sounds like a win-win to me!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Politician love to have an issue to detract voters while they quietly do something unconscionable to pay back their donors... Eg:

 

GetUp! - Top journos are mad – and you should be too

 

 

[Marty_d]

.. are very simple for most.

It's slated the some 75% support same sex unions in Oz, I cry bollshot on that, more likely, like me and everyone I know, 75% couldn't give a toss either way. Not caring either way doesn't give the "Pro" movement the right to say it's support. For balance, nor can the "No" movement use that either.

 

What I am appalled at is the publicity it gets when there's serious human issues affecting everybody such as housing, 50% of Australians living week to week, manufacturing, employment, immigration, GW ... These issues affect everybody, inclusive of Gays.

 

China led the world last year in coal reductions, a massive 6% reduction. Go look at how much coal Australia sells to China as well as minerals in general that the whole world is reducing in use.

 

Point is Australia has some very hard times coming, we need to figure it out now and stop wasting time and big money on relatively nonsensical issues such as a piece of paper that all my own children enjoy relationships, including children, while forsaking that piece of paper. Especially when it's an issue that will quite obviously in time be figured out 'in favour'.

 

I also consider that this might be the most selfish, overinflated, political issue I have seen.

What Dutch said. Agreed. Get it done, you don't need the 175 million plebiscite to do it, a simple vote in parliament will do.

 

On your second point about the hard times Australia has coming, the economists don't agree. If there were a moratorium on new coal mines now and a structured phasing out of existing ones, economically the downturn has been described as a "rounding error" scale. Yes, some people in regional areas who literally work in coal mines will lose their jobs; this also happened when refrigerators replaced ice harvesting and whaling was stopped.

 

One example given regarding approving new coal mine developments, was that of a new VHS cassette manufacturing company starting up after the invention of the DVD.

 

 

[Bruce]

Marty, I would like for you to be right, but to avoid hard times, we need to solve 3 out of 3. That is , resource depletion, overpopulation and global warming.

 

I see no evidence of even recognizing any one of these threats, let alone a plan to solve them all.

 

Yes there are some parties in politics who pay lip service to global warming while proceeding to do nothing about it.

 

 

[Bruce]

And I agree with Bex, my daughter is happily unmarried with 3 great kids and I would be horrified if she wanted to spend $20,000 on some superstitious nonsense when this could come off the mortgage. And yes I helped big time with the house deposit... better value that getting churched I reckon.

 

 

[Bikky]

I also consider that this might be the most selfish, overinflated, political issue I have seen.

I couldn't agree more. Shouldn't be an issue at all, but it's a handy smokescreen diverting our attention from things that really matter. The fact that this is an issue in this day and age reflects badly on us all and stops us moving forward. Bread and circuses.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

On your second point about the hard times Australia has coming, the economists don't agree.

 

Oz manufacturing, 1970 = 30% GDP, today 10% and still declining.

 

Minerals = declining

 

Agriculture = stable but against an increasing population and many profits going O/S.

 

Oil = large GDP earner, but world turning against oil, besides the massive current glut that is growing rapidly with Iran's recent market inclusion.

 

Large Foreign Debt.

 

10% poverty rate 2000 = 12% poverty rate 2015.

 

Many other factors make me disagree.

 

But it will be ok, we'll just all open coffee shops then.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Yes there are some parties in politics who pay lip service to global warming while proceeding to do nothing about it.

Oh they do something about it alright, they throw oodles of money out at anything to look like they are doing something, all to get votes.

 

We lose money, and climate change doesn't get attended to in an efficient manner.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Minerals ain't declining. The value of our mineral production is increasing month by month and year by year and has been for several years. We are in the post-construction phase. Talk of a minerals bust is political BS.

 

 

[onetrack]

Gas (LNG) is our forte. We have the worlds 2nd largest NG reserves, enough to supply the whole world for about 250 years. Large parts of Asia are now very dependent on Australian Gas, in particular NW Shelf gas.

 

They are going to become more even dependent on NW Shelf gas, as it is a low polluting energy source. They'd better be nice to us, we're the Arabs of the 21st Century.

 

Chevron investment in the NW Shelf gas production facilities, wells and production platforms is probably something in the order of $250 BILLION.

 

Just the Gorgon project on Barrow Island has cost Chevron around $75B alone.

 

The Wheatstone project cost is reputed to come out at more than $35B.

 

These projects make the Snowy Scheme look like a kids backyard sandpit pool - and the Snowy Scheme was the largest project in the Southern Hemisphere in the early 1950's.

 

Gorgon is the biggest single gas infrastructure project ever undertaken in the entire world.

 

The problem is, that we're currently selling the gas for a lot less than its worth, because the gas price is tied to the International oil price.

 

It was $16 a terajoule when the gas projects were being built, but now it's down to nearly half that. We need the oil price to recover so we can get some benefit nationally.

 

Then there's the problem that the local gas price is pricing our industries out of the market. The local gas price is set independently of the international pricing and it's costing more than double than the gas we're selling to the Asians.

 

Are we dumb, or what? Our industries can't compete because we're effectively subsidising Asian industry with dirt-cheap gas, and making our local industries pay top dollar for their gas.

 

 

[facthunter]

Why pay for it when you can just come and take it.? Nev

 

 

[onetrack]

Yeah, could be interesting Nev, if the Chinese get really snaky. But then again, we could do a retreating Japs or retreating Iraqis exercise, and just leave them with some scorched earth.

 

 

[facthunter]

Last time I was up that way it looked pretty scorched already. That was B4 the rains that have happened in some parts greened it up. How wet were the wet seasons? Selling gas at the current price is crazy and as usual the "home " market suffers. Anytime everyone goes for something the prices go sky high, (once they are all hooked up). Suckers? Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

Oz manufacturing, 1970 = 30% GDP, today 10% and still declining.

Minerals = declining

 

Agriculture = stable but against an increasing population and many profits going O/S.

 

Oil = large GDP earner, but world turning against oil, besides the massive current glut that is growing rapidly with Iran's recent market inclusion.

 

Large Foreign Debt.

 

10% poverty rate 2000 = 12% poverty rate 2015.

 

Many other factors make me disagree.

 

But it will be ok, we'll just all open coffee shops then.

I was talking about coal specifically, Bex. Australia is not going to go broke if coal is phased out.

 

Of course when Howard et al had the full benefit of the mining boom they could have set up a proper sovereign wealth fund instead of squandering it on tax breaks and middle class welfare. Look at Norway now. Fund over $1 trillion and they never have to produce anything again, just invest wisely and the interest is enough to run the country in perpetuity. We must be a bit dumber than them.

 

 

[Yenn]

While we have the governments we are voting in lately we will not be making money out of gas or coal. The current thinking is how will we get over the low prices? And guess what, the answer is produce more.

 

Adani coal is approved time and time again. Coal mines have been closed, but the governent still want Adani. The Indians will run it with a lot of Indian labour. It will all be exported to India, so guess how much profit they will make here and how much tax they will pay.

 

Our governments are fools.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Sadly true, Yenn. Future generations will not remember many of our current leaders kindly. They're elected to represent us, the mug voters, but as soon as they're in the House they are prey to big money influence. How many have stayed clean?

 

Nocookies

 

 

[Litespeed]

The big chevron et al projects might sound impressive, but bar some small trickle of local jobs and nut and bolts- almost all that investment was spent overseas and imported here and all probably imported tax free.

 

Then the government did bullshite sweet deals that insure they will never pay any royalties or tax to the feds for about 30 years. All at the same time as we get priced out of our own gas. We probably we be better off it if stayed in the ground.

 

Stupidly we do not have a federal gas reserve like the USA does- this would ensure that our prices would be very cheap and foster local production. Any discussion of such a reserve is always canned but vested interests.

 

It is always the same- Donald Horne was right - Lucky country my ass.

 

 

[Bruce]

We are not going to be the Saudis of anything. We are going to be the Nigerians. Why? because the Arabs nationalized their oil, while we, and the Nigerians, will not.

 

South Australia has the most uranium per head than anywhere. Sadly, we are way too stupid to use the stuff and have the world's cheapest electricity.

 

We actually have among the world's dearest electricity, and the most polluting as well, since a lot of it comes from Victorian brown coal.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The big chevron et al projects might sound impressive, but bar some small trickle of local jobs and nut and bolts- almost all that investment was spent overseas and imported here and all probably imported tax free.

Then the government did bullshite sweet deals that insure they will never pay any royalties or tax to the feds for about 30 years. All at the same time as we get priced out of our own gas. We probably we be better off it if stayed in the ground.

 

Stupidly we do not have a federal gas reserve like the USA does- this would ensure that our prices would be very cheap and foster local production. Any discussion of such a reserve is always canned but vested interests.

 

It is always the same- Donald Horne was right - Lucky country my ass.

Any politician with backbone (and our children) would call that Treason.