Atheist knowledge

[Bruce]

I was taken aback by Bex saying that Australia was not democratic.

 

But here's a few things we have never had a vote on ...

 

1. Taking in over 1000 immigrants a day. This is great for owners of shopping malls etc and bad news for the rest of us. Most people are surprised at the number, and it sure wasn't a democratic choice.

 

2. Spending $50 billion on useless submarines.

 

3. Wrecking the state-school system by abandoning the idea of a quality learning classroom , instead allowing for freedom for defective kids to disrupt the lessons.

 

4. Providing most of the profits of the illegal drug lords with newstart money.

 

5. Allowing subdividers to sell blocks of land down to 150 sq metres, making new slums .

 

6. Spending millions policing recreational aviation while allowing mentally-defective parolees to go unchecked.

 

7. Spending millions policing recreational aviation while homeless people sleep on the streets.

 

Personally, I would have voted against all these things but never got the chance. I would have reluctantly accepted losing to a proper vote.

 

There would be more examples... And if we had a vote, would it be free and proper or decided with paid advertisements from those who stood to get a profit?

 

So Bex you have got me thinking about whether we are a democracy or not.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

While we were watching the footy our democracy was taken over by vested interests.

 

 

[Marty_d]

...our democracy was taken over by vested interests.

What, shearers??

 

 

Sorry OK, couldn't resist.

 

But seriously... the way to stop vested interests is to divest.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...divest our system of ANY donations to political parties.

 

 

[Geoff13]

While we were watching the footy our democracy was taken over by vested interests.

Thats because you blokes watch the wrong sort of footy.

 

 

[hihosland]

divesting

 

Now that's an idea

 

worth thinking about

 

[ATTACH]47783._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[bexrbetter]

I was taken aback by Bex saying that Australia was not democratic.

I wasn't being coy.

 

We do have a well balanced democratic Parliamentary system, albeit severely infested by our 2 Party system, and this tends to make the populace think we are a democratic country, and too much American TV.

 

The fact is though we are a Liberal Socialist system and hope each term that the people running the place will do the best for you, although the public assets sell-offs of the last 30 years has thrown some distinct Democratic Capitalist flavour into the fold, mostly the bad bits, like water, energy and communications getting into Private hands and the people bearing the costs of that.

 

Of course the people who scream "Democracy!" are the first to scream about the "Cost of living!", ignorant hypocrites.

 

Australia's socialism is all around you and daily controlling consumer prices, inflation, wages, takes more from the wealthier and gives to the poorer, helps the unemployed etc etc, - on the same hand, the Parliament can make decisions without any consultation with the public, hence your list above. There are checks and balances and laws in place that stop nonsensical or illegal Bills getting past the Floor though.

 

Democracy is "feel good" thing when you think you have it, the reality is people can't afford democracy nor are people smart enough to control it (i.e. Homer's Car).

 

Be careful for what you ask for.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I wasn't being coy.

We do have a well balanced democratic Parliamentary system, albeit severely infested by our 2 Party system, and this tends to make the populace think we are a democratic country, and too much American TV.

 

The fact is though we are a Liberal Socialist system and hope each term that the people running the place will do the best for you, although the public assets sell-offs of the last 30 years has thrown some distinct Democratic Capitalist flavour into the fold, mostly the bad bits, like water, energy and communications getting into Private hands and the people bearing the costs of that.

 

Of course the people who scream "Democracy!" are the first to scream about the "Cost of living!", ignorant hypocrites.

 

Australia's socialism is all around you and daily controlling consumer prices, inflation, wages, takes more from the wealthier and gives to the poorer, helps the unemployed etc etc, - on the same hand, the Parliament can make decisions without any consultation with the public, hence your list above. There are checks and balances and laws in place that stop nonsensical or illegal Bills getting past the Floor though.

 

Democracy is "feel good" thing when you think you have it, the reality is people can't afford democracy nor are people smart enough to control it (i.e. Homer's Car).

 

Be careful for what you ask for.

At least the voters elect their politicians after a "fair and free election" unlike the Soviet Union, and many other countries supported with Communist/one party governments. Stalin famously said this:

 

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.

 

 

[Yenn]

Democracy. That is what is pushed by the USA. A yank general once commented about Turkey refusing to allow them to launch their bombers from there. "What is wrong with them, they are a democracy"

 

They also push democracy at the UN until somebody has a go at israel, then they apply the Veto. Democracy, Rubbish.

 

Look what it did for Fiji, they had a democracy and allowed untold numbers of Indians into the country, so that Fijians had no control of the parliament. they suspended democracy and got well and truly abused by the Commonwealth nations.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Democracy. That is what is pushed by the USA. A yank general once commented about Turkey refusing to allow them to launch their bombers from there. "What is wrong with them, they are a democracy"They also push democracy at the UN until somebody has a go at israel, then they apply the Veto. Democracy, Rubbish.

 

Look what it did for Fiji, they had a democracy and allowed untold numbers of Indians into the country, so that Fijians had no control of the parliament. they suspended democracy and got well and truly abused by the Commonwealth nations.

Democracy may be pushed by the USA. But, how do you explain the military (or CIA-led) "regime changes" where democratically elected governments were overthrown by thugs, insurgents, radicals, opposition groups funded, trained and equipped by the United States? Here are some examples:

 

1893: Hawaii, an independent republic was overthrown by US sponsored revolutionaries and annexed by the United States.

 

1902: The Philippines republic was overthrown by the United States after a three years war.

 

1903: Panama, then controlled by Colombia, had to secede and this was backed by the USA. The canal was under construction already and the USA seized control.

 

1953: The democratically elected government of Iran was overthrown with CIA help (Operation TPAJAX). An authoritarian rule by the Shah of Iran was the result.

 

1954: The CIA arranged an overthrow of a democratically elected government of Guatemala and this led to a military government. The civil war that followed led to the loss of life of nearly 1/4 million people.

 

1964: The democratically elected Brazilian government was overthrown with US support.

 

1973: The democratically elected government was overthrown with Nixon's support. The result? A military dictatorship by General Pinochet.

 

1980: The military coup was supported by the United States both with the CIA and 3000 US troops.

 

There are many more destabilising operations! About three dozen clear attempts to foment trouble in other countries to effect a Regime Change and at least a number of them was a change from democratic to dictatorial.

 

 

[Yenn]

I don't think I can exp;ain, any more than anone can explain how GW Bush got elected as a democratic election. Democracy means pro republican as far as I can see.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I don't think I can exp;ain, any more than anone can explain how GW Bush got elected as a democratic election. Democracy means pro republican as far as I can see.

Because W was not voted in democratically. There is ample eveidence that the ballot machines from Ohio were hacked and that the when the voting data was transferred to Tennesee, voting trends that were evident in Ohio that were favouring Gore, suddenly and inexplicably reversed. Then the machine tapes were destroyed. Added to that, the counting in Florida was blocked by the Republicans through a stacked SCOTUS when it appeared that the recount was favouring Gore. The Republicans and their wealthy backers were prepared to spend whatever it took, and drag the election through as many courts as needed to get the result they wanted.

 

W was NOT elected, he was appointed by the Republican machine.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Democracy may be pushed by the USA. But, how do you explain the military (or CIA-led) "regime changes" where democratically elected governments were overthrown by thugs, insurgents, radicals, opposition groups funded, trained and equipped by the United States? Here are some examples:

1893: Hawaii, an independent republic was overthrown by US sponsored revolutionaries and annexed by the United States.

 

1902: The Philippines republic was overthrown by the United States after a three years war.

 

1903: Panama, then controlled by Colombia, had to secede and this was backed by the USA. The canal was under construction already and the USA seized control.

 

1953: The democratically elected government of Iran was overthrown with CIA help (Operation TPAJAX). An authoritarian rule by the Shah of Iran was the result.

 

1954: The CIA arranged an overthrow of a democratically elected government of Guatemala and this led to a military government. The civil war that followed led to the loss of life of nearly 1/4 million people.

 

1964: The democratically elected Brazilian government was overthrown with US support.

 

1973: The democratically elected government was overthrown with Nixon's support. The result? A military dictatorship by General Pinochet.

 

1980: The military coup was supported by the United States both with the CIA and 3000 US troops.

 

There are many more destabilising operations! About three dozen clear attempts to foment trouble in other countries to effect a Regime Change and at least a number of them was a change from democratic to dictatorial.

The Republicans also armed rebels in south america and did a deal with a hostile country (Iran) to not release hostages until after the election, so that Reagan would look like a hero and Carter would look like a bum. Similarly, when Obama was negotiating a deal to prevent the Iranians from building nuclear (read nukular if you're a Republican) weapons, the Republicans wrote a letter to the Iranian government telling them not to deal with Obama because the Republicans would tear up the deal the first chance they got. The Republicans have gone on and on about Hilary clintons use of email accounts as though she was selling secrets to the Russians, but their dealings with the Iranians are quite simply treasonable. I don't know how any of them, especially any from the W administration are still walking around free on the streets.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't know how any of them, especially any from the W administration are still walking around free on the streets.

I've heard somewhere that cops tend to vote conservative. Not sure if it was backed up with research.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Because W was not voted in democratically. There is ample eveidence that the ballot machines from Ohio were hacked and that the when the voting data was transferred to Tennesee, voting trends that were evident in Ohio that were favouring Gore, suddenly and inexplicably reversed. Then the machine tapes were destroyed. Added to that, the counting in Florida was blocked by the Republicans through a stacked SCOTUS when it appeared that the recount was favouring Gore. The Republicans and their wealthy backers were prepared to spend whatever it took, and drag the election through as many courts as needed to get the result they wanted.W was NOT elected, he was appointed by the Republican machine.

Remember that Stalin said this:

 

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.

 

 

It seems like the Republicans in the USA borrowed something from Stalin's maxim

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Remember that Stalin said this:

It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.

 

 

It seems like the Republicans in the USA borrowed something from Stalin's maxim

It seems that the recent crop of Republicans (starting during Bill Clinton's time) have borrowed some practices from a number of the world's more unsavoury "leaders". The most notable manifestation of "the party of crazy" is the rise of the Tea Party, a so-called "astroturf" organisation.

 

 

[Marty_d]

It seems that the recent crop of Republicans (starting during Bill Clinton's time) have borrowed some practices from a number of the world's more unsavoury "leaders". The most notable manifestation of "the party of crazy" is the rise of the Tea Party, a so-called "astroturf" organisation.

We've got them here too, embedded in the LNP. Cory Bernardi and Kevin Andrews spring to mind.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

We've got them here too, embedded in the LNP. Cory Bernardi and Kevin Andrews spring to mind.

And our very own "W" ToeKneeAbutt

 

 

[Litespeed]

I've heard somewhere that cops tend to vote conservative. Not sure if it was backed up with research.

Whilst without a survey- that tends to hold true.

 

Conservatives have always held a large influence in the armed forces, police, courts and security services. They tend not to bite the hand that feeds them and gives them all the toys, laws and money the want.

 

Goes all the way back to convict times when the soldiers took control of the economy as the "RUM CORPS", this is when thre rot set in and rorts became the way of life. Macquarie was a new age liberal scottish governor and was hammered for it. As was Bligh- a controvesial man but a liberal at heart. This lead to Australia's first army coup, all lead by our first robber baron- Macarthur.

 

A modern version of this influence is Abbott always staying at the barracks of the AFP or Duntroon when in Canberra. Helps maintain influence.

 

It is no coincidence that the LNP get a very good run with the AFP when scandal and criminality happen. Eg Mal Brough until Abbott was booted, The AWB bribes to IRAQ- which was actually treason.

 

You will also notice the conservatives are always the ones to send us to war and stand behind lots of flags, waving off the hapless troops.

 

And the Labour side always brings us back from wars.

 

 

[Yenn]

Why worry about democracy. The latest is for the government to take over from the judiciary. They are proposing that convicted terrorists or those thought to be a risk should be held in prison after they serve their jail term.

 

Where is the separation of powers?

 

A lot of our rights are slowly being done away with by our democratic governments. Qld for a change is leading the way, you don't need a conviction to be a criminal up here, just join motorcycle club.

 

Funny that Qld has one politician who has a conviction, but he can't be thrown out of parliament, but if someone has a conviction they can't get a job on Qld Rail.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Ever notice that everyone caught for drugs etc lately is described as a ex bikie?

 

Lots of 22 years olds etc that have retired from being a bikie after their long career.

 

The rule of law and separation of powers have taken a steep dive towards dictatorship since 1996 when "Jack Boot Johnny" got into power.And it keeps getting worse- now so-called centrist LNP members are now pushing the right wing nut policies on law and disorder.

 

I suggested to a friend she better get citizenship quickly and give up her Indo passport quick, just in case she breaks any laws and get deported. She has been here 20 years and her children are born here. She is a non practising muslim, like many from Indo.

 

Even a stuff up from centrelink could lead to a charge, or a road accident etc.

 

We are very close to 1984 and thought crime.

 

 

[facthunter]

Motor bike riders have always been treated as second class citizens. Nothing's changed Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

Motor bike riders have always been treated as second class citizens. Nothing's changed Nev

Very true, as a rider off 30 years, I agree.

 

But the pity is the bikies give us all a bad name- they are often nothing more than a organised crime group that happens to ride a bike. Hell some are Nike Bikies and when not seen trying to ride and not fall off are driving the spoils of crime- Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo etc.

 

Easy to spot when you see a guy in his 20's, tatts, cap backwards and a Ferrari.

 

But the law is a ass, they could do similar laws targeting organised crime and it would be fair enough- but that would allow prosecution of not just some drug dealers who ride but other crime gangs. Some of the biggest syndicates wear a blue uniform or a white collar and tie. And that would just not do.

 

AS the old saying goes- steal $10 from a bank and goal you get, steal $100,000,000 and its just good bussiness.

 

 

[Bruce]

Many years ago a mate of mine, without asking me, offered my shed for this bikie to camp in during the gliding nationals.

 

The bikie turned out to be a 55 year-old lady dressmaker, who is our friend to this day. You sure can't generalize about bikies huh.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Quite true Bruce. As a motorcyclist I often endured the community's image of "bikies"- an image we did not always try to counteract. In my experience most of the patch gangs are pretty harmless fellow riders, but there are also others who did not have mothers, who took pleasure in inflicting discomfort or hurt on their fellow humans- especially those who didn't ride their style of machine. That minority brought discredit to the rest of us and should have visited upon them the full force of the law.