Atheist knowledge

[facthunter]

The best pilots use their noodle.

 

If the situation were reversed and the Chinese were patrolling close to some place the US was reclaiming what would Donald Trump do? Asian's don't like loss of face and they have put up with a shitload of it from the west in the past. We must maintain our sea lanes, but is that really the issue at this stage? Haven't we learned anything in the last 100 years?. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Perhaps the recent very damaging hack into Australia's BOM computer system from China was a suble warning of what can happen when we stick our noses into other peoples' business.

 

Going "all the way" with the US of A can have significant costs.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Perhaps the recent very damaging hack into Australia's BOM computer system from China was a suble warning of what can happen when we stick our noses into other peoples' business.

EVERYBODY does it.

 

Only gets reported when China or North Korea get caught.

 

I can only figure the constant, misplaced bigotry is for a number of American military manufacturers to stay solvent. Doesn't hurt that when your economy is stuffed and crime is rampant, that you have "the bad guy in black", or red in many cases, to point the finger at and take the emphasis off your own issues.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

You're probably right, Bex. Eisenhower warned about the power of the military-industrial complex (and nobody was better qualified to know). He has been proved right. America is addicted to weapons and wars; without exports of high-tech military hardware and software their economy would be in an even bigger hole.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Someone who rules your country by birthright? Even though it seems benign it's not a good look in the modern world .The Poms are used to a class system and still have unelected people in the House of Lords.Equality of opportunity is what I want as a basis of the ethics of government. That's NOT equality of money but whatever little kid you see should have the same chance at succeeding, as the next one. Betty Windsor hasn't done a bad job but the Poms make money from the tourists. Charlie seems like a well intentioned bloke too. Brit's don't care about here. The performance at Singapore was outrageously bad in WW2 .When they joined the EU they dropped all the trade arrangements with us to be part of the EU trade cartel. Stay in the commonwealth. Others do. Unless it becomes useless..

 

With a republic you have to clearly define the powers of the Prime Minister AND the President,( if you use that term) and have NO confusion. We lost access to the right to appeal to the Privy Council years ago so we do need an appropriate Bill of Rights. Nev

There is no reason why we couldn't establish an APC (an Australian Privy Council), the final Tribunal of Appeal just like the London-based Privy Council. I believe that the APC should have six seven judges: one from each state and one from either the ACT or the NT to make up an odd number of judges. Their remit should be something similar to the Equity Court: cases should not be decided on precedent only but at least 50% based on Equity (fairness) promoting the rights of the Australian people. The APC would be far better than a Bill of Rights (BOR) because a BOR always needs judicial interpretation and this can lead to endless legal arguments which only the rich may afford, not people with moderate or little wealth.

 

Just another matter, the APC should NOT be established in Canberra but some distance away from the seat of legislative power (Parliament) and executive power (the Ministries). It would be preferable if the APC did a circuit away from state capitals too, perhaps a circuit like Launceston, Ballarat Newcastle, Gladstone, Katherine, Esperance and Port Lincoln?

 

 

[Litespeed]

I agree that we should generally stick out of China's business and its politics.

 

And doing anything because Uncle Sam wants us too is always a recipe for disaster.

 

But the situation is not simple, the area they are claiming for many of these islands is so far from China that it can not reasonably be seen as anything but bullying the neighbours and trying to secure rights that clearly under international law are not theirs.

 

These disputed islands are so far from China compared to the countries that are near them, they have as much right to claim them or even lodge a claim for them as we do for claiming Arctic circle oil rights.

 

That does not mean we should be playing point for the USA though.

 

Unfortunately all the countries that do have a legitimate right to make a claim or lodge a disputed claim, are military minnows. And I get the feeling China would quite happily shoot at if they tried to assert themselves.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I agree that we should generally stick out of China's business and its politics.

And doing anything because Uncle Sam wants us too is always a recipe for disaster.

 

But the situation is not simple, the area they are claiming for many of these islands is so far from China that it can not reasonably be seen as anything but bullying the neighbours and trying to secure rights that clearly under international law are not theirs.

 

These disputed islands are so far from China compared to the countries that are near them, they have as much right to claim them or even lodge a claim for them as we do for claiming Arctic circle oil rights.

 

That does not mean we should be playing point for the USA though.

 

Unfortunately all the countries that do have a legitimate right to make a claim or lodge a disputed claim, are military minnows. And I get the feeling China would quite happily shoot at if they tried to assert themselves.

I understand that the islands being reclaimed are a long way from China but about 140 km from the Philippines, only about 5 or six minutes by a Chinese fighter jet. This makes the Filipinos feel very nervous.

 

 

[facthunter]

Those islands ARE disputed and a cause of anxiety about the things that are happening there. Australia will never be a military power of any significance. Our best role is that of an honest broker with a history of being capable of functioning that way. An American alliance mightn't be worth anything with the next president of the US if it's someone like Trump. Just imagine for a moment how the rest of the world regards his views on most things. France profits massively from arms sales. Products solely made to kill people the residue of depleted uranium and live bomblets there to kill for years after any fracas. All madness and evil. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

Yep,

 

I would be very nervous.

 

But the Chinese are only doing what America would do going by history.

 

And yes Nev, we should instead play honest broker for peace and the rule of law. Problem is we are not honest- just ask East Timor how fair and honest we are. We have clearly shown international law only counts when we want it to, especially under LNP governments.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Tell us some more about East Timor?

 

 

[eightyknots]

Tell us some more about East Timor?

As far as I can see, Australia has taken a true leadership role by enlisting worldwide support during the first decade of East Timor's independence. Australia is also the largest developmental assistance donor, at least it was last time I looked into this a couple of years ago. This is important to allow security and stability in the country flanked by a potentially hostile neighbour: Indonesia.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

But the situation is not simple, the area they are claiming for many of these islands is so far from China

 

These disputed islands are so far from China compared to the countries that are near them,

 

Unfortunately all the countries that do have a legitimate right to make a claim or lodge a disputed claim, are military minnows. And I get the feeling China would quite happily shoot at if they tried to assert themselves.

It seems that way on the surface but I have never asked about the situation, no doubt they will assert themselves over territory with South Korea or Japan, but those disputes have been going on for a long time.

 

I will ask around about the Southern Islands, there's a lot of stuff in this region that a lot of Westerners are unaware of of course - and vice versa.

 

 

[eightyknots]

To put you into the picture, I have attached the map that best illustrates the conflicting claim. Which ever way you look at it, the Chinese claim is very broad-brush, shall we say, because it is so extensive it comes really close to the coastlines of other countries.

 

There are so many conflicting/overlapping claims that there is real potential for some hot conflict to spark. I had the hope for quite some time that some kind of negotiated, compromise arrangement between the conflicting claims of these nations could be sorted out: perhaps by a team of independent international arbitrators? However, with the Chinese islands being created by dredging, this now seems to be out of the question.

 

This map is from the abc network:

 

[ATTACH]47801._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[Litespeed]

I wish that was true, that Australia did something to be truly proud of but alas the opposite is true.

 

The story is two fold- our operations during East Timors fight for independence and after.

 

Please note: this is not about our service men and women - who overall did a great job in a shitty situation.

 

here is some pocket history

 

http://www.onyamagazine.com/australian-affairs/history/how-australia-betrayed-then-saved-east-timor/

 

We also under the direction of Canberra allowed the massacre of East Timorese near the West Timor border during the INTERFET response. Basically the US warned us what was happening and the our troops on the ground were actively diverted away from the area to ensure we did not get involved in saving them. Either because we might have taken casualties or because Howard did not want to annoy Indonesia- which given Howard's megaphone diplomacy is unlikely. So most likely to avoid bad coverage at home if bodybags come back. All the SIGNET(signels and intelligence) for INTERFET had to go via Canberra for political reasons and then were relayed to our troops on the ground. To ensure our command and troops in East Timor did not stay in the area and save the Timorese- All SIGNET were cut by Canberra after ordering us away from the impending massacre. Hence the troops could not discover what was going on until it was all over and we could not provide a show of force to save them. This was purely done by our political heros in Canberra- how much our current GG and head of the force at the time Peter Cosgrove knew is another matter I can not comment on.

 

So essentially we (as country) were complicit in the murder of thousands of East Timorese near the West Timor border by the orders of Canberra. Many of the bodies were removed before we got back into the area and thousands were forced over the border into West Timor, and never heard from again.

 

Yes this did happen

 

No you will not find much info it

 

No the official history will not admit it

 

And sadly I can not say how I know.

 

After the fighting cooled down we then did another terrible thing........

 

You may remember that East Timor is one of the poorest countries on Earth and all of its infrastructure was razed by the Indonesians and their militias.

 

It is also extremely wealthy in natural resources- oil and gas in the Timor sea. These were never developed under Indonesian rule but we had signed a joint agreement with Indonesia for exploitation- the bulk of the prize went to Indonesia due to the proximity of the fields to Timor.

 

Upon the creation of East Timor as a nation state, Australia started negoitiations on the oil and gas fields and this was lead by Alexander Downer (Foreign Minister). At the same time we rebuilt government offices for the new East Timorese government and then these were used for the negotiations- which sounds nice on the face of it.

 

But- we had under the direction of Downer used ASIO to secretly bug all discussions by the Timorese government to ensure the upper hand in the treaty deal. And guess what? We ripped off Timor hugely and forced them to sign a deal that ensured the lions share of the resources went to us and not the impoverished Timorese. The East Timorese where placed in a position where they had no real bargaining power and we ripped off the poorest country on earth.

 

To add further insult- the vast majority of the wealth we "stole" will never even be seen by Australia, as we have allowed a big multinational oil company to do the exploitation and we will get a puny royalty.

 

That company is a large and powerful multinational that has a history of not paying tax on any profits. And fudging figures so little royalties are paid.

 

The man who did all this- Alexander Downer is now employed by that same company.

 

Forward years down the track and the East Timorese find out what we did and go to the international umpire of such things and claim we forced Timor to sign a bad deal under duress and ripped them off royally.

 

This all came to head as the Labour government lost power and Abbott got his hands on the wheel. A former ASIO operative turned whistleblower and a Aussie lawyer were assisting the Timorese in their case. Days before the whistleblower was to leave Australia and testify in the Hauge (testimony that would kill our treaty) the lawyers offices were raided and all materials for the case taken by ASIO. The whistleblowers passport cancelled- so he can not testify and is "warned off" saying anything or he will be.......the case is effectively stalled.

 

This case is still ongoing and due to the current governments actions may never be fairly concluded.

 

The info about the case is in the public domain- so I can comment on it.

 

Now before anyone says that Australia had a right to spy on the negotiations for our national interest and the whistleblower is either a traitor or liar (he did install the spy gear under orders)....

 

The gains we made were of a commercial nature that benefited a company and were actually counter to our strategic interest of having East Timor as a stable and developing state.

 

And we illegally spied by using ASIO which by law is limited to such activities to Australia, ASIS is the foreign service for such cloak and dagger stuff. If the whistleblower was ever able to defend himself in our courts or the international courts, he would win due to the nature of the case and its illegality. But he will never get a chance nor will he ever be able to speak about it now.

 

Meanwhile the East Timorese are very poor and have not seen any money.

 

And the guy up to his neck in it- Alexander Downer is making a lot of money from his sponsor a oil company that benefited from the whole thing.

 

Does anyone think it a co-incidence the current LNP government have done everything it can to kill this case about the actions of a previous LNP government.

 

But the LNP naturally know nothing about it, just like the bribes we paid to Saddam Hussien at the same time we were at war with him.

 

Some may think this is all conspiracy stuff and it is- the Australian government conspired to make all this happen.

 

We should all feel ashamed to be Australian for what has been done in our name to the most defenceless and poorest country on earth.

 

Before anyone asks how I know some of this..

 

I legally can not say, but can say I have never been in the armed forces.

 

You will have to read between the lines.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Sadly, the thing that made America a great economic powerhouse is eroding their society from the inside out all courtesy of their system of lobbyists controlling the politicians. It seems to me to be a form of legalised corruption.

 

The Roman Empire lasted 1,000 years and fell (from the inside out) because the Romans took their eye off the ball. After the fall of Rome, the world went into a period of 1,000 years of darkness (the Dark Ages) and the lights were not turned on agains until the 1500s. But then what did the Romans ever do for us . . .

 

The American Empire is likely to have fallen in less than 100 years (from about 1945). The world could become a very cold place for a very long time. Almost glad I won't be around to see a world without the USA "in charge". Despite all their monumental faults and errors, a world where Stalins, Hitlers, Saddams Hussein etc., are unchecked is not somewhere I'd want to live.

 

But then what did the Americans ever do for us . . .

 

 

[bexrbetter]

To put you into the picture,

I am well aware of the situation, I am saying I don't know why the situation is like that.

 

Will the US give up Hawaii? Wake Island is in dispute, the Marshall Islands want it back thanks.

 

Will they give Mexico back the 7 islands along the Rio Grande (how about Texas and California while your at it).

 

Ever stopped to look at a World map with US bases marked out? As the old saying goes, China and Russia must want war other wise why would they put there countries so close to all the US Bases? (and UK Bases for that matter).

 

You don't see America is screaming irony about China wanting a military base a couple of hundred kms away when they annex the whole globe?

 

 

[DonRamsay]

A bill of rights defines and restricts the definition of rights and fails to address situations and attitudes as they change over time.

 

 

A not unreasonable fear but if the Bill of Rights is well written and kept simple and at a high level, a bit the way the Magna Carter was written, then it could be very useful at thwarting power mad governments.

 

 

 

The basic human rights when expressed broadly are indisputable and would leave room for them to be interpreted over time and need not restrict the discretion of the highest court.

 

 

 

I don't see any need for a High Court above the High Court such as an Australian Privy Council.

 

 

 

 

The only flaw in our constitutional monarchy is the potential for the Queen to resign as Queen of Australia and we would be stuck with Charlie.

 

 

Charley or his helicopter piloting son make no difference to me. Both require our grovelling servitude and unending gratitude for any "privilege" their governments confer on we unworthy souls.

 

Unfortunately were are storming down the road of a politicised elected president. Already if you ask a random selection of voters who did they vote for the answer, if you get one, would be the name of the leader of their preferred party, not the name of their local representative as envisaged by the drafters of the constitution.

The reason the last referendum on the republic question failed was because of the sneaky way the monarchists framed the question and the fact that the republicans could not agree on what form the republic would take.

 

I would like to see a republic with the Monarch and vice-regal representatives replaced by an eminent person - the sort of person we currently choose for GG. People like any of the last few would be fine. Ex Chief Justices of the High Court almost always make for a sound choice.

 

While Gough deserved to be kicked out for the incredible damage his mob did to the economy (as was ratified by the landslide defeat he suffered) the dismissal was plain awful. All the fault of the then GG encouraged by a desperate Malcolm. I wonder if the Queen would have allowed it? Of course we should never have been in a position where she gets a say in Australian political matters but the system as it was then (and still is) allows that. I wonder if the GG had threatened Gough would Gough have relented or tried to sack the man Gough appointed as GG? We will never know.

 

Not that Gough's government did nothing good . . . No matter how good Gough was, he was surrounded by idiots that he had to keep sacking. And Jim Cairns as Treasurer? Really? Lovely bloke but useless in a real job.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

And Jim Cairns as Treasurer? Really? Lovely bloke but useless in a real job.

Knew him well and a couple of his sons, Junie's actually I think, well after his term. Anyone who has never met the guy, for him to be Treasurer was just jaw dropping. Nice guy type who might run the local milk bar.

 

 

[Litespeed]

I reckon Jim Cairns is probably a Rhodes Scholar compared to Joe Hockey and Morrison does not seem much better.

 

At least Jim did not intend to be evil

 

 

[hihosland]

Thanks Litespeed for the potted history to our north.

 

You are obviously much more informed than I on these affairs but nothing that you say conflicts with my understanding.

 

Australia's influence and complicit diplomacy feature prominently in the early days of both Pol Pot and Mugabe and if one were to take a few steps back and take a world view of our recent efforts on climate change and treatment of refugees one would quickly move the pub conversation back to Olympic medals.

 

 

[Marty_d]

After the fighting cooled down we then did another terrible thing........

I hadn't heard about the military thing, but yes the Woodside Petroleum scandal and Downer's current position are common knowledge. As was ASIO raiding the lawyer's office. I guess "Not being revealed to the world as absolute c*nts" comes under National Security.

 

Yeah, well it doesn't work like that, but believe what you want.

I don't know how it works in China. Just picking up on the fact you seemed to be comparing party membership rates instead of who's allowed to vote in Australia. I don't belong to any party but I'll damn well make sure my vote doesn't go to the party I like least (well, as far as preferences allow me to!)

 

 

[turboplanner]

I wish that was true, that Australia did something to be truly proud of but alas the opposite is true.

The story is two fold- our operations during East Timors fight for independence and after.

 

Please note: this is not about our service men and women - who overall did a great job in a shitty situation.

 

here is some pocket history

 

http://www.onyamagazine.com/australian-affairs/history/how-australia-betrayed-then-saved-east-timor/

 

We also under the direction of Canberra allowed the massacre of East Timorese near the West Timor border during the INTERFET response. Basically the US warned us what was happening and the our troops on the ground were actively diverted away from the area to ensure we did not get involved in saving them. Either because we might have taken casualties or because Howard did not want to annoy Indonesia- which given Howard's megaphone diplomacy is unlikely. So most likely to avoid bad coverage at home if bodybags come back. All the SIGNET(signels and intelligence) for INTERFET had to go via Canberra for political reasons and then were relayed to our troops on the ground. To ensure our command and troops in East Timor did not stay in the area and save the Timorese- All SIGNET were cut by Canberra after ordering us away from the impending massacre. Hence the troops could not discover what was going on until it was all over and we could not provide a show of force to save them. This was purely done by our political heros in Canberra- how much our current GG and head of the force at the time Peter Cosgrove knew is another matter I can not comment on.

 

So essentially we (as country) were complicit in the murder of thousands of East Timorese near the West Timor border by the orders of Canberra. Many of the bodies were removed before we got back into the area and thousands were forced over the border into West Timor, and never heard from again.

 

Yes this did happen

 

No you will not find much info it

 

No the official history will not admit it

 

And sadly I can not say how I know.

 

After the fighting cooled down we then did another terrible thing........

 

You may remember that East Timor is one of the poorest countries on Earth and all of its infrastructure was razed by the Indonesians and their militias.

 

It is also extremely wealthy in natural resources- oil and gas in the Timor sea. These were never developed under Indonesian rule but we had signed a joint agreement with Indonesia for exploitation- the bulk of the prize went to Indonesia due to the proximity of the fields to Timor.

 

Upon the creation of East Timor as a nation state, Australia started negoitiations on the oil and gas fields and this was lead by Alexander Downer (Foreign Minister). At the same time we rebuilt government offices for the new East Timorese government and then these were used for the negotiations- which sounds nice on the face of it.

 

But- we had under the direction of Downer used ASIO to secretly bug all discussions by the Timorese government to ensure the upper hand in the treaty deal. And guess what? We ripped off Timor hugely and forced them to sign a deal that ensured the lions share of the resources went to us and not the impoverished Timorese. The East Timorese where placed in a position where they had no real bargaining power and we ripped off the poorest country on earth.

 

To add further insult- the vast majority of the wealth we "stole" will never even be seen by Australia, as we have allowed a big multinational oil company to do the exploitation and we will get a puny royalty.

 

That company is a large and powerful multinational that has a history of not paying tax on any profits. And fudging figures so little royalties are paid.

 

The man who did all this- Alexander Downer is now employed by that same company.

 

Forward years down the track and the East Timorese find out what we did and go to the international umpire of such things and claim we forced Timor to sign a bad deal under duress and ripped them off royally.

 

This all came to head as the Labour government lost power and Abbott got his hands on the wheel. A former ASIO operative turned whistleblower and a Aussie lawyer were assisting the Timorese in their case. Days before the whistleblower was to leave Australia and testify in the Hauge (testimony that would kill our treaty) the lawyers offices were raided and all materials for the case taken by ASIO. The whistleblowers passport cancelled- so he can not testify and is "warned off" saying anything or he will be.......the case is effectively stalled.

 

This case is still ongoing and due to the current governments actions may never be fairly concluded.

 

The info about the case is in the public domain- so I can comment on it.

 

Now before anyone says that Australia had a right to spy on the negotiations for our national interest and the whistleblower is either a traitor or liar (he did install the spy gear under orders)....

 

The gains we made were of a commercial nature that benefited a company and were actually counter to our strategic interest of having East Timor as a stable and developing state.

 

And we illegally spied by using ASIO which by law is limited to such activities to Australia, ASIS is the foreign service for such cloak and dagger stuff. If the whistleblower was ever able to defend himself in our courts or the international courts, he would win due to the nature of the case and its illegality. But he will never get a chance nor will he ever be able to speak about it now.

 

Meanwhile the East Timorese are very poor and have not seen any money.

 

And the guy up to his neck in it- Alexander Downer is making a lot of money from his sponsor a oil company that benefited from the whole thing.

 

Does anyone think it a co-incidence the current LNP government have done everything it can to kill this case about the actions of a previous LNP government.

 

But the LNP naturally know nothing about it, just like the bribes we paid to Saddam Hussien at the same time we were at war with him.

 

Some may think this is all conspiracy stuff and it is- the Australian government conspired to make all this happen.

 

We should all feel ashamed to be Australian for what has been done in our name to the most defenceless and poorest country on earth.

 

Before anyone asks how I know some of this..

 

I legally can not say, but can say I have never been in the armed forces.

 

You will have to read between the lines.

Right, no evidence, no information from the Australian Government, no claims from the East Timorese Government, we just have to take your word for this sensational story.

 

 

[Litespeed]

TP,

 

As I stated some of this information is in the public domian, ie the spying, the Downer personal involvement and many other bits.

 

You really think the Government would happily tell us about it?

 

You are naive.

 

As I stated, somethings Governments do can not by law be publicly stated and or attributted to a source. Ie that source can have their life destroyed for even commenting.

 

Read between the lines- But as many would know- it is illegal to even name a person from such a organistation as having worked for them. In fact such employees can not even tell family members who they work for.

 

Think on it.

 

OR you can believe that Australia is the Gold standard for ethics.

 

 

[Litespeed]

AS a side note:

 

Why does East Timor not scream about the atrocities that killed up to 35% of their population during the Indonesian years and the period of Australia's involvement?

 

To not upset those with the power, it was agreed to not force those responsible to be outed and charge or seek war crimes retribution for a deal on Aid. They are so impoverished that the only income they generally get is aid and mainly from Australia.

 

Let your still living people eat or defend the dead, which would you choose?

 

 

[Yenn]

East Timor was a stuff up by Australia. It was nothing for us to be proud of, but it has come to light.

 

What is still being hidden by Australia and Indonesia is the atrocities being committed in West Papua, which is edition 2 of the East Timor disaster.