Atheist knowledge

[Bruce]

Yes my kids went to religious based schools too. In the state schools around here, the rough kids run rampant and the teachers are not allowed to stop them. So little learning takes place. Some kids graduate as illiterates.

 

Just after finishing at private school, my son was shocked one day to find that the school management had treated a no-account girl in a very nasty way. She had been molested on the school bus by two boys from two important families. When this girl ran crying to the senior staff, she was treated as the troublemaker, and the complaint was quashed.

 

So my son decided that they didn't really believe any of the the stuff they had been preaching for years.

 

My main involvement with religious people has been through the kid's schooling, and I noticed people at the gliding club treated each other much better than the religious lot ever did.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Staff of "religious" schools have been known to turn a blind eye to some totally unChristian behaviour- as long as "one of our own" was doing it. Too often protection of the group has taken precedence over moral principles, and I've seen first hand how a whistle-blower can be treated worse than a paedophile. Lots of good, dedicated people have been cast aside as the worst of humanity get promoted to the top of the heap.

 

Interesting bit of research:

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-11/fear-of-god-helped-societies-expand-study-finds/7155696

 

 

[turboplanner]

You only have to look at the current Royal Commission to see that OK

 

Many times in history self-interested people/groups have come up with their own version of a religion based on belief in God, but based on their own moral standard, or their financial goals.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Bit close to home Marty?

 

 

[Marty_d]

Bit close to home Marty?

No, just amusing. I was tempted to pull your post apart bit by bit, but then thought "what's the use"... (ie Pigeon Chess), so settled for giving you a funny.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I understand.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Turboplanner,

 

I think you have been drinking the altar wine again.

 

None of your comments hold water as a reason for discrimination except for some perceived divine right of religion to be above the law and decency.

 

As you believe of the divine right of believers in fairies in the sky to hold those below them in contempt, I should not have any expectation that facts will get in the road of your version of the world.

 

And just as proof that you will ignore- considerable exemptions in the law allow discrimination on religious grounds by religious organisations. No one else is allowed to discriminate on religious grounds except religions.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Can you point to any examples of those laws?

 

 

[octave]

Morning Turbo, long time no argue!

 

It's illegal to discriminate against someone on religious grounds, illegal to even ask them in an interview, but a lot of atheists are so in your face every hour of every day taking every opportunity to ridicule believers, attack the Bible, tell people they are wasting their time going to church, that they shouldn't be surprised if they are quietly shifted to the side. Much earlier in this thread I quoted the Collins New English Dictionary definition of an Atheist as "one who denies the existence of God." Don loudly proclaimed I had the wrong dictionary, but many of the shrill posts in this thread match that description.

Not quite true, there are exceptions http://www.humanrightscommission.vic.gov.au/index.php/exceptions-exemptions-and-special-measures/exceptions

 

Shrill posts? I guess I can only speak for myself but I always put great effort into challenging ideas not attacking people. Remember how this thread started, a lame joke about how stupid atheists are. I could be wrong here but have any threads been started by someone pushing their atheism?

 

 

[Marty_d]

Fifteen posts to go to the 3,000 mark. I'm expecting Bex to weigh in any time now... (if he's an early riser, it's 6:41am in Chengdu...)

 

 

[octave]

with an anti-God drive many atheists also drift to the left into the socialist camp, and we have a couple of prominent examples posting here. Ever seen a socialist organise funds to build a school?

Am I a "prominent example"? Have I ever seen a socialist raise money for a school? I see what you did there, you conflated atheism with socialism and then asked if I had ever seen a socialist organise funds for a school. I have helped raise money for a school (and I did not even have a child attending that school.) I have many friends who work pretty hard to raise money for schools.

 

 

[octave]

that is because people who believe in God and particularly who read the Bible get a message that it is essential to look after those worse off than you. There's nothing really stopping atheists doing the same.

I have, as long as I can remember, had a payment to charity taken out of my account (even through lean periods). I donate to Oxfam Australia which at least claims to be independent and secular. Whilst I applaud charity carried out by religious groups I am keen to avoid the kind of charity that comes with a bowl of rice in one hand and a bible in the other hand.

 

There are many secular charitable organizations such Red Cross, Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders, Amnesty International, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. My wife works with a water engineer (and non believer) who donates his time to Engineers Without Borders, helping to supply clean drinking water in 3rd world countries.

 

As a non believer I donate time and money to charity not for any reward or because a book tells me to but I guess out of a sense of empathy and a realization that I have been born into a time and place of great relative wealth.

 

Do tell me turbo if I am getting too "shrill" for you

 

 

[octave]

Same reasons, atheists have a way of getting up your nose with their constant denials, and people don't like it so they just close ranks.

Interesting, "constant denials" It certainly is not my practice to introduce myself as a non believer, I would say many of my friends and colleagues would have no idea what I believe in or not, it simply is not relevant to my day to day dealings with people. If someone asks me about my position on religion I am happy to discuss it but I do not believe defending my position could be described as "constant denials" or shrill.

 

I have never had an atheist knock on my door to discuss atheism. I don't believe I have ever been in a social or work situation where someone apropos of nothing has proclaimed their atheism, in my experience it has only ever been in response to a believers questions (which can be quite fascinating and even friendly) or their proselytizing (usually not so friendly)

 

 

[Bikky]

Ever seen a socialist organise funds to build a school?

Yep! Me. I prefer the term humanist to atheist, but there you go. I don't like guns (any more,) or religion so I must be a lefty/socialist. Neocon logic at work, or am I playing the same dirty game?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Jesus, I've been Octaved!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Not quite true, there are exceptions http://www.humanrightscommission.vic.gov.au/index.php/exceptions-exemptions-and-special-measures/exceptions

I was interested in the exceptions, given the critical mass movement in the community away from discrimination, and it's detailed perfectly on your link, the religious section being:

 

"Religious exceptions

 

Religious bodies and religious schools can discriminate against a person on the basis of a personal characteristic in certain circumstances that include:

 

• ordinating or appointing priests, ministers of religion or members of a religious order
   
  
• training or educating people seeking ordination or appointment as priests, ministers of religion or members of a religious order
   
  
• selecting or appointing people to perform functions relating to, or participating in, any religious observance or practice.
   
  

 

Religious bodies and religious schools can discriminate on the basis of a person’s religious belief or activity, sex, sexual orientation, lawful sexual activity, marital status, parental status or gender identity where the discrimination conforms to the doctrines, beliefs or principles of the religion or is reasonably necessary to avoid injury to the religious sensitivities of people who follow the religion.

 

However, religious bodies and religious schools cannot discriminate on the grounds of race, disability, age, physical features, industrial or employment activity, carer status, political belief or activity, pregnancy, breastfeeding or on the basis of a personal association with a person with any protected characteristic.

 

Religious bodies and religious schools can also allow a person to discriminate against another person on the grounds of the person's religious belief or activity, sex, sexual orientation, lawful sexual activity, marital status, parental status or gender identity if the discrimination is reasonably necessary for the first person to comply with the doctrines, beliefs or principles of their religion.

 

The term ‘reasonably necessary’ requires an objective assessment of whether the discrimination is necessary."

 

Shrill posts? I guess I can only speak for myself but I always put great effort into challenging ideas not attacking people.It's mostly the ones who just make assertions; in your case you are usually able to get me hitting the books.

 

Remember how this thread started, a lame joke about how stupid atheists are. I could be wrong here but have any threads been started by someone pushing their atheism?

Threads no, but interminable posts miss-aimed often at just the Bible, or Christ, or Churches - yes.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Am I a "prominent example"? Have I ever seen a socialist raise money for a school? I see what you did there, you conflated atheism with socialism and then asked if I had ever seen a socialist organise funds for a school. I have helped raise money for a school (and I did not even have a child attending that school.) I have many friends who work pretty hard to raise money for schools.

Maybe I should have said "Ever seen a socialist group organise funds to build a school?" I also work with and donate to when in their meetings political parties I don't vote for, so I can understand your point. And no, you're not a prominent example.

 

 

[octave]

Maybe I should have said "Ever seen a socialist group organise funds to build a school?" I also work with and donate to when in their meetings political parties I don't vote for, so I can understand your point. And no, you're not a prominent example.

 

So you donate to political parties that you don't vote for and I have donated time and money to a school at which I have no children, I would say then that you with your belief and me with my non belief actually behave in similar ways when it comes to donating.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I have, as long as I can remember, had a payment to charity taken out of my account (even through lean periods). I donate to Oxfam Australia which at least claims to be independent and secular. Whilst I applaud charity carried out by religious groups I am keen to avoid the kind of charity that comes with a bowl of rice in one hand and a bible in the other hand.

There are many secular charitable organizations such Red Cross, Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders, Amnesty International, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. My wife works with a water engineer (and non believer) who donates his time to Engineers Without Borders, helping to supply clean drinking water in 3rd world countries.

 

As a non believer I donate time and money to charity not for any reward or because a book tells me to but I guess out of a sense of empathy and a realization that I have been born into a time and place of great relative wealth.

 

Do tell me turbo if I am getting too "shrill" for you

The 'shrill" I was talking about were the flat assertions, without any foundation other than an apparent intense dislike, suprisingly focused on Christianity rather than and belief or otherwise in God,.

 

This is what I said "that is because people who believe in God and particularly who read the Bible get a message that it is essential to look after those worse off than you. There's nothing really stopping atheists doing the same."

 

So you're just confirming what I said; but what is very interesting is what gives you the inner motive, what propels you in that direction - that is very similar to what some people report as a motivation by God to do a certain action.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Interesting, "constant denials" It certainly is not my practice to introduce myself as a non believer, I would say many of my friends and colleagues would have no idea what I believe in or not, it simply is not relevant to my day to day dealings with people. That's the way it should be; I'm only asked about religion or moved to talk about it once every few years (except for this thread which I consider a single case), but some don't let it go at that, raising the issue whenever they can, rationalising that whenever they suffer a setback it's because they're an atheist etc., and in permanent attack mode whenever the subject of religion does come up. You'll find the same type of people in permanent attack mode against CASA for example, and you'll find the same type of people in permanent attack mode regarding football teams, and you'll find the same people in permanent attack mode regarding parties.

 

I have never had an atheist knock on my door to discuss atheism.

No, most of them get their money elsewhere, which puts them one rung up the ladder from trying to get me to work for my money then give away for administration purposes.

 

I don't believe I have ever been in a social or work situation where someone apropos of nothing has proclaimed their atheism, in my experience it has only ever been in response to a believers questions (which can be quite fascinating and even friendly) or their proselytizing (usually not so friendly)

I have, a number of times, but it usually comes up when the conversation is about religion in the form of an attack on religion.

[turboplanner]

So you donate to political parties that you don't vote for and I have donated time and money to a school at which I have no children, I would say then that you with your belief and me with my non belief actually behave in similar ways when it comes to donating.

Yes, and our base motivating factors are very similar.

 

 

[octave]

Yes, and our base motivating factors are very similar.

Absolutely, I am quite sure that if you suddenly lost your religion you would be just as moved by the plight of a starving child or an accident victim. This is empathy and it is not exclusively a human characteristic. I don't doubt that religion can motivate some people to do great things but then perhaps the belief that this life is the only one you get can also be a motivator to do great things.

 

 

[facthunter]

If it's what Turbs doesn't agree with it's "shrill" or "absolute rubbish". Waste of time having a discussion if that's the technique used to counter or advance an argument. This "giant " of a discussion started badly in the way presented Ie Atheists are a joke, cannot have any morals and their so called "knowledge" should be ridiculed ". Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

By all means twist what I actually wrote, but that reflects on you.

 

 

[facthunter]

Always an insult . Perhaps you don't realise you are doing it. Nev