Atheist knowledge

[Old Koreelah]

We are not going to be the Saudis of anything. We are going to be the Nigerians. Why? because the Arabs nationalized their oil, while we, and the Nigerians, will not.South Australia has the most uranium per head than anywhere. Sadly, we are way too stupid to use the stuff and have the world's cheapest electricity.

 

We actually have among the world's dearest electricity, and the most polluting as well, since a lot of it comes from Victorian brown coal.

Bruce I almost gave your post a Gold Star. Replace "uranium" with "almost limitless solar energy"and I'd totally agree.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I was talking about coal specifically, Bex. Australia is not going to go broke if coal is phased out.

I wasn't, it's just one part of the package that we are losing.

 

Of course when Howard et al had the full benefit of the mining boom

Firstly the ALP and the Libs have had equal time in power in modern history, and both double terms, so they warrant equal blame for everything today. Keating internationalising our oil is one of the worst, but some might see that as anti-ALP, no, it's just anti-moron. If you need political balance, the Libs didn't reign it back in when they took over from Keating, and so it goes.

 

Whatever the other Party does, the other Party doesn't correct when they get into power.

 

Look at Norway now. Fund over $1 trillion and they never have to produce anything again, just invest wisely and the interest is enough to run the country in perpetuity. We must be a bit dumber than them.

What? So every country that can afford it invests and sits on their azzes, how does that work exactly, the wealthy countries merely enslave the poorer countries? - from your general writings I would have thought that goes against everything you tend to stand for. You're not Jewish by chance?

 

What exactly is Norway going to do if there's a massive Global financial crisis or a war tomorrow, eat their money?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The problem is, that we're currently selling the gas for a lot less than its worth, because the gas price is tied to the International oil price.

 

It was $16 a terajoule when the gas projects were being built, but now it's down to nearly half that. We need the oil price to recover so we can get some benefit nationally.

I just mentioned that above, thanks a million Paul Keating, rather than a billion. He did it, and I was horrified when he did. He literally gave away one of our greatest resources to overseas interests.

 

.. and as I said, if you need political balance, thanks John Howard for not having a mandate to correct it, etc etc.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Solar and wind cannot replace base load power with any known technology for our current grid system. If we retain our grid then we need a majority of base load power with high spinning inertia which can only come from hydro or steam power stations. As hydro is limited we are stuck with coal or nuclear. Of course it would be great to dump the grid and have local solar and wind energy with consumption varied to suit available power, but the consumers have not shown much inclination for that and it doesn't provide for industrial supply which has to be steady and reliable. So we will still be majority coal fired in 2050 unless we switch to nuclear.

 

 

[onetrack]

The Norwegian Oil Fund makes for interesting reading.

 

Government Pension Fund of Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

We do have 6 separate, task-specific Funds in Australia for various things. The Future Fund is probably the best-known, but this Fund is only for covering public servants massive eventual superannuation costs.

 

The 5 other Funds are;

 

Building Australia Fund

 

Health and Hospitals Fund

 

Education Investment Fund

 

DisabilityCare Australia Fund

 

Medical Research Future Fund

 

Australian Government Future Fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

[Bruce]

I would like for you to be right Old Koreelah, but the reason why South Australia's electricity is so expensive is because we embarked on solar and wind. We did this without any economic storage systems in existence.

 

Maybe they thought cheap storage would soon happen, but it hasn't happened and so for supply during low solar and low wind times, we are buying very expensive and very polluting power from Victoria.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

we are buying very expensive and very polluting power from Victoria.

Well just ask them to stop then, in the meantime show them you're serious, turn off your computer.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Solar and wind cannot replace base load power with any known technology for our current grid system. If we retain our grid then we need a majority of base load power with high spinning inertia which can only come from hydro or steam power stations. As hydro is limited we are stuck with coal or nuclear. Of course it would be great to dump the grid and have local solar and wind energy with consumption varied to suit available power, but the consumers have not shown much inclination for that and it doesn't provide for industrial supply which has to be steady and reliable. So we will still be majority coal fired in 2050 unless we switch to nuclear.

We've been hearing those predictions for decades, PM. Storage technology is improving so fast that power companies are installing batteries to supply the grid overnight.

 

Little more than century ago refrigeration had the same set-up as electricity generation does today. Huge, centralised ice factories with complex and wasteful distribution systems to deliver ice to individual homes. Nobody could imagine every home (and car, office, business...) having low-cost, super-reliable refrigerator systems.

 

The same could soon be true of solar energy, if the coal lobby got out of the way.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I think SAs electricity is so expensive more due to privatisation and consequent monopoly ownership of the grid, and years of neglected infrastructure.

 

If you seriously believe your electricity bills would drop by getting rid of solar and wind input, I reckon you'd be in for a rude shock.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I would like for you to be right Old Koreelah, but the reason why South Australia's electricity is so expensive is because we embarked on solar and wind. We did this without any economic storage systems in existence.Maybe they thought cheap storage would soon happen, but it hasn't happened and so for supply during low solar and low wind times, we are buying very expensive and very polluting power from Victoria.

I agree, Bruce. They (and Tassie) were a bit hasty in closing down coal burning power stations that had life left in them. Even the most ardent renewables supporter would favour a prudent phasing in period over quite a few seasons.

 

On a global stage, the pollution saved locally by closing a coal-burner may be more than offset when energy-intensive processing operations move to countries with lower standards. We lose jobs, technology and export income. The joys of having most of our economy foreign-controlled.

 

 

[Marty_d]

What? So every country that can afford it invests and sits on their azzes, how does that work exactly, the wealthy countries merely enslave the poorer countries? - from your general writings I would have thought that goes against everything you tend to stand for. You're not Jewish by chance?

 

What exactly is Norway going to do if there's a massive Global financial crisis or a war tomorrow, eat their money?

I'm having trouble understanding your point. Are you saying it's better for a country to have to rip out their national resources and sell them overseas to pay for all the things they need? Where does that end?

 

And they're enslaving poor countries how? Because the money they use is their own rather than debt? I think I've heard you rail against governments borrowing to fund regular spending - here's a government that doesn't have to borrow at all, but somehow that's a bad thing?

 

I'm not Jewish, to my knowledge, but the slur wasn't really necessary.

 

If we take the longer view on this, consider what a developed country could do if it was in Norway's position. For a start they wouldn't be dependent on revenue, so there'd be no pandering to destructive industries merely to get royalties or taxes. They could fund socially beneficial programs both in their own country and overseas. Health, education, arts, science, social welfare, infrastructure - all the things that our governments try to cut because of the cost, they could fund properly. Grants could be available for research into all sorts of beneficial technologies. Used wisely the possibilities are endless.

 

 

[Litespeed]

I hate to shock you all but bugger it.

 

WE have all the technology we need for endless power supply to meet our current needs and not burn a single piece of coal, gas or even bother going nuclear which is the most expensive option possible.

 

No country has ever done nuclear without massive hidden subsidy and massive clean up costs. And after 60 plus years of nuclear power we still have no proper waste disposal.

 

So what is this amazing tech- it is called solar. And before anyone runs for the door screaming- Phil is off his meds again....................

 

WE can easily produce all the solar we need including industrial loads and that includes during the night. Yes we can invest in traditional battery storage or saline pond battery tech or Tesla power walls. But everyone seems to want to go the biggest cost, most private profit method such as these. They are in most cases just super expensive ways of storing energy when compared to tech that is as old as the romans or older even.

 

I was listening to one of the smartest solar guys in the world on ABC one night- a professor from UNSW solar team (world leaders for over 30 years) and his super cheap solution for storage. It is ........................WATER. All you do is have a smallish dam on a hill and a nearby solar plant with a dam. Any excess power generated is used to pump the water up to the dam. Small town sized systems are now becoming quite common and typically produce a heap more power during the middle of the day than can be used to allow for the needs later in the day when everyone comes home etc. All excess power is pumped up the hill into the dams- and allowed to flow with gravity through small micro turbine water wheels to generate power when needed. That can be at night, cloudy day, whenever needed.

 

WE are not talking massive dams either, he used examples that most farmers are used to in scale for the farm. He has run the economies on this and the scale issues and it works extremely well from very small scale to mega scale for a large city. It is all about making the power where it is going to be used or nearby and scaling for the actual needs. Your town growing? Just ad some more solar and build another couple of small dams. Not big mega dollar dams - little ones.

 

With the exception of towns that are completely flat this works very well. For the flatlands other systems can complement it. The cost of building such systems is a mere fraction of traditional dirty power and running costs are only very minimal maintenance, and the water can also be used for other normal purposes- just be waterwise and not stupid with it.

 

Meanwhile in Britain they are building a new Nuclear plant to make only 7% at best of their power needs- cost approx $60 billion AUS and growing by the day. Last time I heard the poms used a lot less power per capita than we did. And then that plant will cost many billion a year to run and at least $10-15 billion to decomission and cleanup at the end of its life cycle at todays dollars.

 

Anyone who is pushing the no solar storage line is having us on. They either have not looked into it properly or have a vested interest.

 

Please find your closest LNP politician and place them on a ants nest.

 

 

[Litespeed]

I agree, Bruce. They (and Tassie) were a bit hasty in closing down coal burning power stations that had life left in them. Even the most ardent renewables supporter would favour a prudent phasing in period over quite a few seasons.On a global stage, the pollution saved locally by closing a coal-burner may be more than offset when energy-intensive processing operations move to countries with lower standards. We lose jobs, technology and export income. The joys of having most of our economy foreign-controlled.

No I disagree.

 

The major stuff up was deciding to close your next cleanest option and mothball it- the gas generator station. Which was disassembled and the turbines sent to Dubai? for rebuilding. Gas can be turned on and off as needed. Coal besides being very dirty can not.

 

A lot of these so called energy intensive operations are actually been done in other countries with new generation plants that are far more efficient and cheaper to run than the 50 year old plants we had here. So pollution wise it is a winner. Same with power stations- sure some countries are still building them but they are using the most efficient type possible to get bang for buck. Our old ones were dirty even by the standards or the time they were built.

 

 

[Litespeed]

We've been hearing those predictions for decades, PM. Storage technology is improving so fast that power companies are installing batteries to supply the grid overnight.Little more than century ago refrigeration had the same set-up as electricity generation does today. Huge, centralised ice factories with complex and wasteful distribution systems to deliver ice to individual homes. Nobody could imagine every home (and car, office, business...) having low-cost, super-reliable refrigerator systems.

 

The same could soon be true of solar energy, if the coal lobby got out of the way.

Well said.

 

We must remember a huge amount of our electricty bill is the distribution cost of sending the power huge distances over expensive and now so called "gold plated" infrastructure. It is incredibly inefficient and expensive. The more they spent on poles and wires the more the regulator allowed them to charge- so they invested on it for no actual gain except the ability to charge a hell of a lot more. Without this stupidity our bills may be 50% lower. Add in the fact we privatised so instead of cost recovery plus a small dividend to government we have dozens of layers of corporate greed all wanting a big slice of profit and holding a gun to our heads to get it.

 

We should have some of the cheapest power in the world even with our current systems- instead we are one of the most expensive.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Storage technology is improving so fast that power companies are installing batteries to supply the grid overnight.

Have you got any examples of these power companies we could look at?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I was listening to one of the smartest solar guys in the world on ABC one night- a professor from UNSW solar team (world leaders for over 30 years) and his super cheap solution for storage. It is ........................WATER. All you do is have a smallish dam on a hill and a nearby solar plant with a dam. Any excess power generated is used to pump the water up to the dam. Small town sized systems are now becoming quite common and typically produce a heap more power during the middle of the day than can be used to allow for the needs later in the day when everyone comes home etc. All excess power is pumped up the hill into the dams- and allowed to flow with gravity through small micro turbine water wheels to generate power when needed. That can be at night, cloudy day, whenever needed.

 

WE are not talking massive dams either, he used examples that most farmers are used to in scale for the farm. He has run the economies on this and the scale issues and it works extremely well from very small scale to mega scale for a large city. It is all about making the power where it is going to be used or nearby and scaling for the actual needs. Your town growing? Just ad some more solar and build another couple of small dams. Not big mega dollar dams - little ones.

Unless you are talking about the few genuine alpine towns we have in Australia, this would need spectacular break throughs in turbine design and physics; are there any links to this process?

 

 

[turboplanner]

We must remember a huge amount of our electricty bill is the distribution cost of sending the power huge distances over expensive and now so called "gold plated" infrastructure. It is incredibly inefficient and expensive. The more they spent on poles and wires the more the regulator allowed them to charge- so they invested on it for no actual gain except the ability to charge a hell of a lot more. Without this stupidity our bills may be 50% lower. Add in the fact we privatised so instead of cost recovery plus a small dividend to government we have dozens of layers of corporate greed all wanting a big slice of profit and holding a gun to our heads to get it.

This is the biggest impediment to affordable cost and we need to move away from it.

 

The Atlanteans are reported to have had a power system where power was projected to residences and vehicles from central generating points, in a similar concept to our radio and TV transmissions, and Nikola Tesla was able to replicate this in an experiment where he was able to power up lights 18 miles away.

 

A better solution might be to design self contained residence by residence systems, then there's no transmission cost.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I am a great fan of pumped storage and have written articles in support. But, like battery storage, it Isn't really compatible with our present centralised generation national grid system. Which is essential for industry which uses most of our electricity. Dreams are great, but no one has been able to show how we can make the change to a different model and preserve our economy. To understand the problem look at where the power is generated and where and when it is used. The new technologies are great but we haven't worked out how to apply them. It's like inventing the car but having no road system.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

By the way, the capacity of pumped storage depends on storage volume and available head. There are lots of deep mines in Australia which could be used for storage, depths up to 1500 metres.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Have you got any examples of these power companies we could look at?

AGL launches world’s largest solar virtual power plant battery demonstration to benefit customers | AGL

 

AGL adds two new, larger battery systems to energy storage suite - One Step Off The Grid

 

Energy disruption: Solar plus storage to be cheaper than grid in 2017

 

Energy storage systems signal arrival of ‘baseload’ renewables

 

But wait, there's more:

 

Australian company buys 50% stake in “game-changing” graphene battery storage technology

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

No I disagree.

The major stuff up was deciding to close your next cleanest option and mothball it- the gas generator station. Which was disassembled and the turbines sent to Dubai? for rebuilding. Gas can be turned on and off as needed. Coal besides being very dirty can not...

Thanks for the correction, LS. What rocket scientist decided to sell off a gas power plant already set up ready for a rainy day (or, in Hydro-powered Tassie's case a drought)?

 

 

[Marty_d]

Unless you are talking about the few genuine alpine towns we have in Australia, this would need spectacular break throughs in turbine design and physics; are there any links to this process?

I don't think you need that much fall. There's plenty of examples of small (1 - 20 household) hydro generators using a relatively minor fall from an existing river or stream.

 

As Litespeed says, it's the centralised power plants and their "gold plated" poles & wires that are the problem.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I don't think you need that much fall. There's plenty of examples of small (1 - 20 household) hydro generators using a relatively minor fall from an existing river or stream..

A modern house, withe computers, lights, phone chargers, and air conditioning running through the night?

 

 

[onetrack]

California is leading in the green energy stakes, and they are moving onto huge battery storage systems within a year or two. They have a target of 1.3Gw in battery storage for State power utilities by 2020.

 

The competition is hot between Li-ion and Redox technologies, although there are other storage technologies such as pumped water storage, and huge flywheels, being planned and offered as well.

 

Batteries Are Carving Out Space on the Grid

 

We have the Kidston (QLD) solar/hydro pumped storage power station in the process of going ahead.

 

The beauty of Kidston is that it's simply using a couple of abandoned open-pit mines that are full of water at different levels, as the hydro storage/power generation.

 

The Kidston Solar Project

 

 

[octave]

Molten Salt Energy Storage — SolarReserve