Atheist knowledge

[M61A1]

The Stanford article is interesting, but they're comparing batteries with pumped hydro, not against actual current fossil fuels.

Yes but they do touch on just how energy intensive battery manufacture is...

[facthunter]

Lead can be to a large extent recycled. I didn't see that mentioned. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...Are they the ones who ran really fast but stayed in the same spot??

I don't know why any of those creatures would need to run. My understanding is that they all got along famously.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The destruction of the local motor industry was vandalism writ large and all for a small amount of money given the multiplier effect it has on the economy. Complete stupidity by Abbott and Joe. Subsidies well used are a good thing to develop and maintain industries where appropriate- there is no such thing as free markets. The car industry subsidy was a small investment- just look at the cost of all those lost jobs, lost taxes, lost skills and manufacturing. And it was a export industry as well.

It was Gough Whitlam who decided to force Australian companies into open competition with world markets. It was Senator John Button who executed it.

 

With tariffs we were insulated from the rest of the world, and could price our products based on low volume production costs.

 

Whitlam was probably pushed by consumers who have repeatedly proved, as a whole:

 

1. If they can buy something cheaper or equivalent standard they will.

 

2. In doing that, the last thing they think about is killing industry in their country.

 

Once the tariffs came off, car manufacturers had to compete with product produced at high volume.

 

The difference wasn't minor; to give you an example, I was at a conference in the early 1970's where bus operators as a group decided to take Leyland to task over exhaust manifold cracking in its highly succesful 3/654 engine. The Leyland guy pointed out the obvious cause; they had been extending wheelbases and carrying enough extra people to cause manifold overheating. The bus operators did the usual and said "We don't care about that, just fix it!

 

The Leyland guy smiled and said he'd like to, but the manifolds were not cracking in Australian semi trailers, and the entire Australian annual sales volume was one morning's production per year in the engine plant.

 

The Japanese manufacturers stepped in and supplied vehicles branded in the names we knew well for some years, but once the Button Plan was activated it was all over.

 

The first hope to get competitive costing with low volume was robotics, but the vehicle industry discovered, through International Harvester Co in the US, which had just fully converted to robotics, that when the cyclical downturns came, you can't lay off robots, you still have to keep the repayments up.

 

The next hope was digital manufacture, where computers built the cars, and labour costs, hopefully would become irrelevant.

 

Australian manufactures had by now closed down their plants in Brisbane, Sydney, Perth, leaving Ford focused on Melbourne and GM focused on Adelaide.

 

Both achieved good results, extending their lives for a few mor decades.

 

Unfortunately to big overseas plants were also achieving massive cost savings through dumping labour, and then went another step higher with JIT (Just In Time) production, where production lines no longer had to build batches (with waste when sales weren't as expected, and lost sales when a model unexpectedly achieved runaway sales). They now were able to build every model in the range individually, so could order match build, for eaven greater savings.

 

Australia copied that, and achieved another reprieve.

 

One of the key factors enabling the Australian manufacturers to hang in was the local demand for a car suitable for long distance high speed travelling, and caravan/horse float/boat towing, and the Commodore and Falcon had an edge in this category.

 

Then along came the SUV which did all that and extended the operating range with 4WD, and we simply shifted to SUV in droves, with a second fuel economy market opening up as well.

 

The decision had been made by the marketing divisions to go after the competitive markets, which they did very successfully. I was in the middle of it, and while I had an emotional attachment to being able to walk down the line and see one of my orders being built, but I could supply my customers faster with more sophisticated product, and at a competitive price, and that's what they wanted.

 

The decision was then made to quit local manufacturing on a financial basis; the politicians may have accelerated the change by a couple of years, but it was all over.

 

If you want to look at macro economics post WW2, the first wave of prosperity came from the wool industry, which murdered itself quickly by gross over-pricing.

 

The next wave was motor vehicle manufacturing.

 

The mining industry picked up the vacuum from the wool and vehicle manufacturing era.

 

Tourism is fast picking up the slack by the slow down in mining sales.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

in fact it's likely that a lot of oil, gas and coal will just be left in the ground as useless material.

Well there's a different comment than the usual "run out of it" one, and more likely closer to the truth - albeit it a long way off.

 

My Daughter's Godfather finds the stuff and on-sells the finds, he knows how much there is and is still finding it.

 

Hey Bex - are you strictly following the Party line?

"The" Party?

 

Which "Party" were you referring to?

 

I agree with onetrack, the pollution in Beijing is shocking. .

Define "pollution", and in context to the posts, as you have been following to this point haven't you.

 

 

[Bruce]

Nev, last time I bought a car battery and I was shocked at the price, the guy said the $100 price was due to the high price of lead. I pointed out that my old battery still had all the lead and therefore should be worth more than the $2 offered at the recycling place.

 

This fell on deaf ears.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The destruction of the local motor industry was vandalism writ large and all for a small amount of money given the multiplier effect it has on the economy. Complete stupidity by Abbott and Joe.

Yes, but where's the outrage and outcry from Labor????

 

...and we're told that other countries subsidise their car industries. Even Germany. The knock-on effect of losing our car builders will be colossal.

Correct, Germany spent about 5 times as much per head as Australia ever did.

 

You can bash the Greens as much as you like,

Ok, Lefty perfect world loonies standing around singing "Kumbaya My Lord" who have no grasp on real world scenarios.

 

Thanks for the free hand.

 

 

[Yenn]

Facthunter said.

 

I don't "BELIEVE" science knows anything. Their stuff is just another opinion, and they sometimes get it wrong

 

. I believe in intelligent design and it should be taught as science in schools. There is no evolution. That stuff is made up by ATHEISTS. The universe is 6300 years old and fossils were made old by god. Now can I join the Liberal party?

 

That is a dead giveaway. Now I have worked out who you really are.

 

Barnaby Joyce.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That is a dead giveaway. Now I have worked out who you really are.

 

Barnaby Joyce.

Well I'll be stuffed; I was sure it was Kevin Rudd!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...One of the key factors enabling the Australian manufacturers to hang in was the local demand for a car suitable for long distance high speed travelling, and caravan/horse float/boat towing, and the Commodore and Falcon had an edge in this category.Then along came the SUV which did all that and extended the operating range with 4WD, and we simply shifted to SUV in droves...

I always wanted to buy Australian (and did own a couple of locally-made used vehicles). Our car industry never produced anything I would buy new. The nearest I got was the Camira, which didn't lave the leg room I needed. (My Daihatsu Charade had oodles; it also had several times as many mounting points for its exhaust system compared to Falcons.)

 

When the Snowy Mt. Authority imported a Toyota Land Cruiser in the 50s the writing was on the wall: this country had a big market for 4WDs. Why did it take decades for our industry to make a half-hearted effort to build 4WD vehicles?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I always wanted to buy Australian (and did own a couple of locally-made used vehicles). Our car industry never produced anything I would buy new. The nearest I got was the Camira, which didn't lave the leg room I needed. (My Daihatsu Charade had oodles; it also had several times as many mounting points for its exhaust system compared to Falcons.)When the Snowy Mt. Authority imported a Toyota Land Cruiser in the 50s the writing was on the wall: this country had a big market for 4WDs. Why did it take decades for our industry to make a half-hearted effort to build 4WD vehicles?

Freighter Industries designed and built a 4WD in the 1950's but it was a Japanese genius that put and old six cylinder Chevrolet engine design into a package that was perfect for Australia. Sometimes it's down to great people.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Yes but they do touch on just how energy intensive battery manufacture is...

The compressed air thing was interesting though.

 

Storage technology is only going to get better.

 

Ok, Lefty perfect world loonies standing around singing "Kumbaya My Lord" who have no grasp on real world scenarios.

...as opposed to the Right, which is full of either religious nut jobs or neo-con economic rationalists (often combined in the one lovable package), who think the worlds problems can be solved by war, unfettered free market forces, and god.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...as opposed to the Right, which is full of either religious nut jobs or neo-con economic rationalists (often combined in the one lovable package), who think the worlds problems can be solved by war, unfettered free market forces, and god.

...and avoid paying tax while loudly complaining about government waste, but line up for disguised welfare.

 

The taxpayer pays for the education and training of the workforce which tax-avoiding corporations depend on.

 

 

[Litespeed]

And don't forget this weeks winge about welfare costs yet again. They always quote the overall $170 billion but go after the unemployed which is only 12% of that and mugs think they are all just bludgers.

 

But we know who the real bludgers are ........

 

 

[bexrbetter]

...as opposed to the Right, ......

 

Woah there Nelly, you clearly invited people to bag the Left, no one offered you the same in kind.

 

 

[onetrack]

Which "Party" were you referring to?

Bex, I thought you had only one choice, when it came to Parties in China?

 

[bexrbetter]

Bex, I thought you had only one choice, when it came to Parties in China?

it's ok, many posts from many people can be excused for the many ignorant comments about China because the media does flood the mainstream with absolute China crap on a daily basis.

 

It keeps the populace's eyes off what's going on at home, and especially military spending when the populace believes there's an enemy around.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What's the situation with the Chinese economy?; a few nervous people in the US/Aus financial world.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

What's the situation with the Chinese economy?; a few nervous people in the US/Aus financial world.

Pretty bad.

 

I think the story is worse than they know. I would be very nervous if I had investments in China, oh wait, I do!

 

The Gov pushed infrastructure hard, then pushed new or modern tech, and has left a lot of old style manufacturing to fend for themselves while wages have doubled to tripled over the last 5 years so a lot of them have shut shop or running on their bones.

 

The sudden boom in housing collapsed 3 years ago, thanks to a fundamental mistake by the Gov (some of you are aware of the recently built China "Ghost Cities"), and the banks were left to hang, so of course interest rates went up to recover it (still low by Western standards though) and bank policy tightened, so investment is low and slow.

 

This, and other factors, has caused some inflation, unemployment, rising costs, etc, so exports are down and so the vicious circle is created. many of the populace wanted to be more Western, I'm not sure they like it now they're getting it.

 

In favour, nearly every household owns their house (and you can not take a mortgage on your house by law), living costs are laughably low, and most things are done by cash, not credit. They also know how to not spend money and how to save so they can buy things for cash.

 

 

[M61A1]

The compressed air thing was interesting though.Storage technology is only going to get better.

 

...as opposed to the Right, which is full of either religious nut jobs or neo-con economic rationalists (often combined in the one lovable package), who think the worlds problems can be solved by war, unfettered free market forces, and god.

I think we've had this discussion before....I'm not against it, I'm all for it, but our technology needs to be better before we start forcing it on society. That said, regardless of where our power comes from, we are still going to need mining/quarrying, maybe less, as we can come up with more efficient recycling process, but we will still need it.

 

 

[facthunter]

We are 4WD, SUV crazy. Highest % in the world. Most never get used OFF road and most of the smaller ones don't tow anything. The one important thing in their favour is they have a bit of extra headroom to get in and out easier. For some reason they are popular to take precious little darlings to and from school, (the tanky BIG ones) and most mum's think they are safer in a crash in a war tank. Off road tyres are horrendous on a wet roundabout with some diesel spilt on it. Not my idea of fun to drive when you can get a Focus RS 4WD with 350 HP that really handles for not much cost. (about the same as a KIA people mover) Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

We are 4WD, SUV crazy. Highest % in the world. Most never get used OFF road and most of the smaller ones don't tow anything. The one important thing in their favour is they have a bit of extra headroom to get in and out easier. For some reason they are popular to take precious little darlings to and from school, (the tanky BIG ones) and most mum's think they are safer in a crash in a war tank. Off road tyres are horrendous on a wet roundabout with some diesel spilt on it. Not my idea of fun to drive when you can get a Focus RS 4WD with 350 HP that really handles for not much cost. (about the same as a KIA people mover) Nev

So true, Nev. I've posted this story before, but will repeat it. A senior Toyota engineer was travelling with a mate of mine when overtaken by a Landcruser. He was quite upset that it was going so fast, and said it has a design speed of 80 km/h. The Hilux is similar (and I bet that applies to most 4WDs.) The Corolla's design speed was 130. I've attended fatal accidents where 'Cruisers have flipped (presumably after they got out of shape and the drivers over corrected). Too many parents think their kids are safer in top heavy, overweight trucks.

 

 

[facthunter]

They have their uses but few people need them for that, which is towing a fairly heavy Caravan at moderate speeds. There seems to be a large number of them crashed and rolled in yards along the Highway called Bruce. When you have driven a bit on it you notice everyone is sitting on about 115 Kms plus in them. No only are they consuming a lot of fuel at that speed,. with the camber on the road and the slope on the verges to clear heavy rain it's a disaster safety wise. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

We are 4WD, SUV crazy. Highest % in the world. Most never get used OFF road and most of the smaller ones don't tow anything. The one important thing in their favour is they have a bit of extra headroom to get in and out easier. For some reason they are popular to take precious little darlings to and from school, (the tanky BIG ones) and most mum's think they are safer in a crash in a war tank. Off road tyres are horrendous on a wet roundabout with some diesel spilt on it. Not my idea of fun to drive when you can get a Focus RS 4WD with 350 HP that really handles for not much cost. (about the same as a KIA people mover) Nev

That was actually an anti SUV marketing strategy which resonated with a lot of the population, particularly those who used public transport and drove small cars; it has clearly stayed in your mind. However, it was unsuccessful, and the market took off anyway.

 

I was once trapped in a paddock on wet grass with a 2 WD ute pulling an air compressor, which is why a lot of tadespeople use 4WD.

 

If you own horses and have a horse float, you can get into paddocks and grass at gymkhana sites.

 

If you own a boat, you can pull up a slippery launch ramp.

 

If you love going into the bush, even if only for the annual holidays, a 4WD opens up new horizons.

 

If you go up to the snow, even a couple of times a year, you can get into places you might otherwise turn back from.

 

And so on; there are many applications where a 4WD is an attractive proposition.

 

All tyres are horrendous on a roundabout where diesel has been spilled; I've driven 4WDs for many years along with 2WD cars and there's not a generation difference. If you want to race a 4WD or off road a car, you have a slight identity crisis.

 

As far as "most never get used OFF road" is concerned, that was part of that anti SUV marketing strategy; this is not a communist country, you're free to buy what you like and use it how you like.

 

 

[turboplanner]

So true, Nev. I've posted this story before, but will repeat it. A senior Toyota engineer was travelling with a mate of mine when overtaken by a Landcruser. He was quite upset that it was going so fast, and said it has a design speed of 80 km/h. The Hilux is similar (and I bet that applies to most 4WDs.) The Corolla's design speed was 130. I've attended fatal accidents where 'Cruisers have flipped (presumably after they got out of shape and the drivers over corrected). Too many parents think their kids are safer in top heavy, overweight trucks.

I assume that was some time back; we've been fitting high speed tyres (130 km/hr) to new 4WDs for a few years now.

 

The Holden Rodeo, in the mid 1980's was a low profile 4WD, and had a market share of next to nothing. The Hilux, particularly after the introduction of the Forerunner took off. I took an interest in the Rodeo situation, and took one off road and on gravel roads, being very impressed by its performance, but it had no charisma. When one of the design engineers came out, I pointed out the differences in the design concepts and told him Australians wanted the macho image. When I asked him why Isuzu hadn't jacked the suspension the same as Hilux (which gave Hilux the edge on deeply rutted and boggy tracks), he said "car fall over".

 

I had a Nissan 720 with jacked suspension at the time, and took him for a drive up into the mountains, throwing it into four wheel slides, and diving along the rutted tracks where you had to keep momentum up because you bottomed out and lost traction. It apparently had a lasting effect on him because within a year or so the suspensons had been jacked to about the same as the Hilux.

 

It is true that these vehicles have a higher roll centre and a higher centre of gravity, but when cornering on dirt tracks that produces a weight transfer to the outer tyres which substantially increases the grip, reducing the chances of sliding into the trees.

 

I'd suggest the flips and crashes you see have more to do with the demographic which owns and drives those vehicles, and simply over cooks it for the conditions.