Atheist knowledge

[onetrack]

Come across a 4WD owner with $40,000 worth of extras and accessories on a $30,000 4WD, and you'll find one of the biggest, most arrogant, aggressive d***heads around, who shoves his massive bullbar up against your back window while you're still doing 5-10km over the limit - who treats cyclists like road vermin - and who will continuously rip up every steep trail and track around, until it turns into an eroded wasteland.

 

Then he'll rant on for an hour, about much he loves the natural bush, and how all these other d***heads are making a mess of the country.

 

And I'm not kidding about the value figures, either. On one 4WD forum recently, a dork was wanting to know where he could get insurance for his rig.

 

His (used) 4WD was valued at $36,000 on RedBook, and he claimed he had a verified $47,000 worth of accessories on it, and he wanted to insure the rig for the full combined value.

 

He'd probably been laughed out of the door of a dozen insurance companies.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I assume that was some time back; we've been fitting high speed tyres (130 km/hr) to new 4WDs for a few years now.The Holden Rodeo, in the mid 1980's was a low profile 4WD, and had a market share of next to nothing. The Hilux, particularly after the introduction of the Forerunner took off. I took an interest in the Rodeo situation, and took one off road and on gravel roads, being very impressed by its performance, but it had no charisma. When one of the design engineers came out, I pointed out the differences in the design concepts and told him Australians wanted the macho image. When I asked him why Isuzu hadn't jacked the suspension the same as Hilux (which gave Hilux the edge on deeply rutted and boggy tracks), he said "car fall over".

 

I had a Nissan 720 with jacked suspension at the time, and took him for a drive up into the mountains, throwing it into four wheel slides, and diving along the rutted tracks where you had to keep momentum up because you bottomed out and lost traction. It apparently had a lasting effect on him because within a year or so the suspensons had been jacked to about the same as the Hilux.

 

It is true that these vehicles have a higher roll centre and a higher centre of gravity, but when cornering on dirt tracks that produces a weight transfer to the outer tyres which substantially increases the grip, reducing the chances of sliding into the trees.

 

I'd suggest the flips and crashes you see have more to do with the demographic which owns and drives those vehicles, and simply over cooks it for the conditions.

Half a century ago people like Citroen built cars with fluid suspension. They could sit down or stand up. Why don't 4WD vehicles have low CoG until they needed to lift up over the rough stuff? The Japanese build impressively reliable vehicles, but some of their specs are far behind the Europeans. (It took them decades to catch up with the undercarriage of my Lada Niva.)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Half a century ago people like Citroen built cars with fluid suspension. They could sit down or stand up. Why don't 4WD vehicles have low CoG until they needed to lift up over the rough stuff? The Japanese build impressively reliable vehicles, but some of their specs are far behind the Europeans. (It took them decades to catch up with the undercarriage of my Lada Niva.)

The customers manage to smash up semi-elliptical/beam axle configurations on dirt roads with corrugations, bulldust pools, jump ups etc. One I know set out from Alice Springs in a Nissan Patrol after a storm, when the sand dune crests were still sharp. He couldn't be bothered with the small amount of shoveling required to flatten the top, and just charged up the slope, flying through the air down the back side of the dune. Cracked his chassis in the middle the third or fourth time he did it, and had to be towed back to Alice Springs.

 

I've been curious to see what's happening with the chassisless Jeep fleet out there.

 

I mostly operate in the Alpine areas where it's not unusual to be in 4WD for several hours with ruts in the valley so deep in winter, that in places only the guys with the high suspensions and over size wheels can get the traction to pull the vehicle over the mud.

 

For a case like that you can but an air bag kit which jacks the vehcile up for that type of operation, wading through water, climbing over logs etc. You the same with a low profile 4x2, add a pair of chains, and rarely be caught out.

 

I've never driven a Lada, but heard they are brilliant off road.

 

Interesting comment of yours about the Japanese being backward in suspensions. They are brilliant with tackling rust, allowing bodies to flex without cracking, electrical, transmission and engine, but they have always had a problem coping with the thought process you need to design a suspension. They can make them tough, but when you look at roll centres, scrub radius, linkages it all goes to custard.

 

 

[facthunter]

Turbs, your post 3674 is one of the weirdest I've read. It's hard to write something here and have it distorted like that , and think how one can respond to such conclusions? It's easier not to bother. Surely I'm entitled to write stuff without you suggesting I'm completely affected by communist propaganda and ADVERTISING. I'm interested in vehicles that actually are suitable for the purpose and don't break shock absorbers out of the chassis when taken down a rough track and I'd like a good meal for every time I've been run off the road on a motorcycle by some Cretin In a 4WD in the Snowy Mountains coming wide on a turn, and thinking it's pretty funny. I have also driven rally cars high powered road cars, open wheelers Subaru WRX and such Rally full prep Datsun Stanza SSS. Most recent high powered bikes until a few years ago, but I don't think high powered road bikes make a lot of sense, the power they have now and you don't get much of a run from other traffic, it's too dangerous.

 

Having a separate chassis must be a relic of the past on a good SUV though an SUV is probably the most "not used" in serious Off road and probably more an image thing. The dual cab ute is pretty useless off road (Serious stuff) I'm not talking about launching boats or running along a beach in the salt water which will wreck it quicktime. They all look much the same and will break in half towing a heavy van into deep watercourses. They all have about the same weak chassis and too much overhang behind the rear wheels, for serious stuff. OF course they are OK for Tradies on a muddy block, but they still BOG easily enough. I've seen an earlier Land cruiser set up with a Hummer diesel V8 engine and auto trans that has done well for few years. An "affordable" answer to the problem of a suitable tow vehicle. They convert them in WA for about $9K all new engine/trans Good value. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

I do not think it is only suspension they are backwards in but specs, engineering and over the top pricing.

 

A case in point is the Prado vs ML series Mercedes the Merc is much better finished, comes with much higher specs and is a lot cheaper.

 

The Prado is left for dead in towing braked weight of 3000kg merc vs only 2500 kg Prado.

 

The Prado is running a old school noisy and fuel hungry motor with much less torque and power. Meanwhile the Merc is a absolute pleasure to drive and tow, quiet and gets a genuine excellent 6lt/100km at 120km/h on a trip.

 

It is a easy one to two generations older in tech and abilities but they have the hide to charge more for it.

 

Maybe Aussies are religious about their SUV and reality has nothing to do with their choices?

 

I do know about the above example as my brother has the ML and absolutely loves it- he tows a big boat on weekends. His mates have Prados and regret it. Especially when services come around or the injectors need doing- that costs a arm and two legs.

 

It just makes no sense.

 

Toyota (toymota) are the modern GM- all marketing over substance and gullible Aussies believe them.

 

Some will say -but the Prado has tougher suspension and wheels- yes but 98 % of owners will never get to use the difference and all the rest of the time the Merc or BMW etc will handle like a car and be far safer and in the bad event of a crash- you might live to walk away.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbs, your post 3674 is one of the weirdest I've read. It's hard to write something here and have it distorted like that , and think how one can respond to such conclusions? It's easier not to bother. Surely I'm entitled to write stuff without you suggesting I'm completely affected by communist propaganda and ADVERTISING.

Well, I'll try to make it simpler, this is what you said:

 

• "We are 4WD, SUV crazy."
   
  
• "Most never get used OFF road"
   
  
• "most of the smaller ones don't tow anything"
   
  

 

After a stab like that why wouldn't you expect someone who has lived worked and played in the industry for decades, to hit back.

 

You were repeating an anti SUV PR strategy, whether consciously or subconsciously.

 

I didn't say anything about communist propaganda, or you being affected by it, I said "this is not a communist country, you're free to buy what you like and use it how you like"

 

I'm interested in vehicles that actually are suitable for the purpose and don't break shock absorbers out of the chassis when taken down a rough track

What sort of a crack is this? I've owned 4WDs since the early Land Rovers, building a drilling riog on one when I was 18, and driven through the bush, on dirt tracks, up the Birdsville Track, down through Sturts Stony desert, and on may holidays in the remote areas north west of Broken Hill, and have never broken a shock absorber let alone torn one out of the chassis.

 

I'd like a good meal for every time I've been run off the road on a motorcycle by some Cretin In a 4WD in the Snowy Mountains coming wide on a turn, and thinking it's pretty funny.

Well I had a guy on a bike run wide on a blind corner and lay the bike down in front of me, but that didn't make him a cretin, and that didn't mean all bike riders made mistakes.

 

Having a separate chassis must be a relic of the past on a good SUV though an SUV is probably the most "not used" in serious Off road and probably more an image thing.

Well Toyota, the market leader use it on the Land Cruiser range, right up to the luxury wagon, as well as the Hilux range.

 

What are they doing wrong?

 

The dual cab ute is pretty useless off road (Serious stuff) I'm not talking about launching boats or running along a beach in the salt water which will wreck it quicktime.

I've owned a Nissan 720, two Rodeos and a Nissan Navara, have never found any of them "pretty useless" off road, and they've done a lot of bush and genuine outback work.

 

The reason dual cab utes are so popular is that they are all-rounders, able to carry a payload in the back which is separate from the occupants, so safer, able to tow, and with a long wheelbase making them more comfortable.

 

They all look much the same and will break in half towing a heavy van into deep watercourses.

I've never cracked any of my chassis, but there's always someone who can find a way. I'm intrigued by this description of towing a heavy van into a deep watercourse; wonder how the van would get on.

 

They all have about the same weak chassis and too much overhang behind the rear wheels, for serious stuff.

The reason for having a chassis is that when the suspension is reaching its travel limit the chassis can start to twist on its flexible mounts to the body, which also has some limited twist. This reduces body damage(cracking) and also helps in avoiding the disabling one-wheel-off the-ground scenario.

 

The tray body may appear to have too much overhang to the novice, but when you do a weight calculation, the ROH cantilever effect is reasonable because of the long wheelbase.

 

If you want to operate locally, not do too much road work, and want to drop the vehicle into gullys and jump ups, the SUV to buy is the short wheelbase/short rear overhang, but they don't have the all round storage capacity, are more pitchy to ride in, and less comfortable dorectionally when towing a heavy load.

 

OF course they are OK for Tradies on a muddy block, but they still BOG easily enough.

Bogging is as bogging does; you can bog anything or you can use your momentum to cross a bog patch, or you can make a decision to go round, or you can have some fun and winch yourself through a bog floating on the chassis.

 

With the crew cab Navara I've towed a SWB Land Cruiser which had become bogged while trying to extract another SWB Land Cruiser on a beach. It was all about jacking them up off the chassis, getting the first one moving with a snatch strap then using the momentum of the two moving vehicles to yank out the original victim.

 

 

[onetrack]

Seen dozens and dozens of cracked and bent 4WD chassis - and the dual cabs are notorious for it. Of course, abuse and overloading and going too fast for the conditions are always the primary reasons.

 

bent chassis - Google Search

 

 

[turboplanner]

Seen dozens and dozens of cracked and bent 4WD chassis - and the dual cabs are notorious for it. Of course, abuse and overloading and going too fast for the conditions are always the primary reasons.

bent chassis - Google Search

What are the annual sales of dual cab utes?

 

 

[eightyknots]

I actually have four very heavy volumes of English law written at the turn of last century and even it is not real supportive of the power of god.

The turn of the century was only 16 years ago, i.e., a century after Australia became an "indissoluble union" of six colonies. The Constitution was written in the 1800s, a long time before your heavy volumes of English law.

 

 

[skeptic36]

They convert them in WA for about $9K all new engine/trans Good value.

No, they start north of $20k and finish over 30 depending what you want. Best off to buy one already done.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Solar and wind cannot replace base load power with any known technology for our current grid system. If we retain our grid then we need a majority of base load power with high spinning inertia which can only come from hydro or steam power stations. As hydro is limited we are stuck with coal or nuclear. Of course it would be great to dump the grid and have local solar and wind energy with consumption varied to suit available power, but the consumers have not shown much inclination for that and it doesn't provide for industrial supply which has to be steady and reliable. So we will still be majority coal fired in 2050 unless we switch to nuclear.

When the lunar cell is fully developed, at least there will be a base load on cloudless, full moon nights.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Have you got any examples of these power companies we could look at?

I know a guy that worked on the team that made a whole nation a solar powered regime. This involved installing many batteries (and PV panels of course). Renewable energy in Tuvalu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . It was an incredible project but they are now planning the next stage of expansion to cope with the increased consumption triggered by the ready available of relatively cheap electricity. This PV expansion will occur in 2017.

 

Well said.

We must remember a huge amount of our electricty bill is the distribution cost of sending the power huge distances over expensive and now so called "gold plated" infrastructure. It is incredibly inefficient and expensive. The more they spent on poles and wires the more the regulator allowed them to charge- so they invested on it for no actual gain except the ability to charge a hell of a lot more.

 

....

One way to stave off having to increase the power grid capacity is to have as many possible roofs in Australia fitted with PV panels.

 

 

[Litespeed]

The turn of the century was only 16 years ago, i.e., a century after Australia became an "indissoluble union" of six colonies. The Constitution was written in the 1800s, a long time before your heavy volumes of English law.

The turn of last century meant when we went from the 19th to the 20th century- ie 1900.

 

Theses law volumes detail all english law and its precedence up to that point- all the way back to before Henry the Viii and do include sections on the colonies and such early ideas as the Magna Carta.

 

 

[Marty_d]

That's the thing. The coal lobby and their cheerleaders in government try to say that coal is the only way to bring energy to the millions in developing countries. The reality is that distributed solar with battery backup makes a lot more sense. Poor people with no current power don't have an airconditioned mcmansion to run. Something that's enough to power some lights in the evening, charge the free mobile phone that Indian company is giving out and maybe even piped water would make a world of difference to education and micro-business outcomes.

 

 

[Litespeed]

There is a charity run by some Australians in Africa that provides solar powered lights to provide light at night in homes.

 

This means the children can study and improve their education and opportunities in life.

 

The biggest side effect is a huge reduction in serious burns and deaths from kerosene lanterns that when knocked over start fires that maim and often kill. It also means that precious money is spent on food and schooling instead of paying for kerosene.

 

A really simple and cheap solution that can make a massive difference

 

 

[dutchroll]

Back onto religion.........I have no words for this:

 

Colorado church didn’t report pastor’s child sex abuse because ‘biblical counseling’ would suffice

 

It's not even the fact that he was pastor who sexually abused. That could happen in non-religious circles too. It's the Church's "solution" to it! Honestly....,what goes through these people's heads? Pray, read some bible stories, and she'll be apples?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Back onto religion.........I have no words for this:

Colorado church didn’t report pastor’s child sex abuse because ‘biblical counseling’ would suffice

 

It's not even the fact that he was pastor who sexually abused. That could happen in non-religious circles too. It's the Church's "solution" to it! Honestly....,what goes through these people's heads? Pray, read some bible stories, and she'll be apples?

...the reputation of their church was obviously more important than the little girl.

 

 

[eightyknots]

...the reputation of their church was obviously more important than the little girl.

That's shocking: it is a criminal act and MUST be dealt with by law. Dealing with this in-house is no better than sweeping the matter under the carpet.

 

Thankfully, the vast majority of pastors would never do such a thing. The 'bad eggs' completely mar the good name of the church.

 

 

[Litespeed]

That's shocking: it is a criminal act and MUST be dealt with by law. Dealing with this in-house is no better than sweeping the matter under the carpet.

Thankfully, the vast majority of pastors would never do such a thing. The 'bad eggs' completely mar the good name of the church.

No it is far worse than that- it is a criminal act to know and not report it immediately. That allows the pastor to continue to take victims and condones his crimes and facilitates further crimes against children.

 

 

[facthunter]

You are joking surely? By the law of the land it is a crime and should be reported. Where are all the instances of THAT happening? If you confess your transgressions you will be forgiven your sins. It's just a bit of bad luck for the victims who confide in their parents and are told to shut up about it or "they" will be excommunicated and the Kids often get beaten up for "making up" such an accusation. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

Well this is the thing......for very many years the Church has promoted itself as this bastion of goodness where evil cannot flourish and will always be prevented from entering, or at least very quickly driven out.

 

Except that it has been shown that this isn't necessarily true.

 

Yes of course there are a majority of very good and well intended folk within it. But if you close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears in the pretence that nothing bad can happen because you're all so faithful and looked after by the good Lord, well look what actually can happen!

 

 

[eightyknots]

No it is far worse than that- it is a criminal act to know and not report it immediately. That allows the pastor to continue to take victims and condones his crimes and facilitates further crimes against children.

Hey Litespeed, that is exactly what I said. I will quote myself:

 

That's shocking: it is a criminal act and MUST be dealt with by law. Dealing with this in-house is no better than sweeping the matter under the carpet.

 

 

[facthunter]

In my view , It's doubly reprehensible because one would expect better behaviour among a group who profess to represent god on earth. They also hold great power over the young in their care and the community generally, moreso in some communities than others. They certainly abuse that power and trust put in them, in these circumstances. Those that knew and didn't act are accessories before and after the fact. One can only assume that being able to get away with it was uppermost on their minds, because it went on for so long. While it happened outside the circumstances we address here, also It was done to the greatest degree (in this country at least) inside the Catholic Church... Other societies condone similar treatment of children too. It is hard to imagine the young deserve in any way, treatment like this, anywhere. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

Hey Litespeed, that is exactly what I said. I will quote myself:

That's shocking: it is a criminal act and MUST be dealt with by law. Dealing with this in-house is no better than sweeping the matter under the carpet.

I was referring to the "no better than sweeping it under the carpet"- it is not dust or a chip wrapper- it appeared you were referring legally to the act of the pastor not the actions of those who became aware.

 

All parties who become aware are also acting illegally as accessories after the fact.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Some will say -but the Prado has tougher suspension and wheels-.

A few years ago I drove to Shangrila (yes the fabled one) on a 10 day road trip through West Sichuan in the foothills of the Himalaya mountains (next stop Tibet). They ranges start about 2 hours from my home.

 

I was gob smacked at not only the amount of Prados that made up 50% of all vehicles, but the way they drove them, fast along some of the worst roads you can imagine while the rest of us crawled along. I had a Honda CRV loaned from a friend that at 5000 meters had about 20 bloody hp. One day we did 100kms in 10 hours, I also cracked the rear diff housing.

 

It was quite apparent that the drivers, we are talking locals here and all the Police cars, knew it wouldn't bother the Prados crashing them along these roads. The next most popular were older style Pajeros.

 

And yes, I of course I photoshopped the smog out, this couldn't possibly be China ...

 

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