Atheist knowledge

[Marty_d]

Now now, don't go getting all scientific. Obviously these highly educated theologians have scrutinised the "begats" and come up with with the very precise age of the Earth as 4,004 BC.

 

This means that all these concepts like the "speed of light" and "dinosaurs" are just made up by those godless scientists. (The arrogance of trying to work out how the universe works by observation and experiment, when they could just trust a book!!)

 

 

[Bikky]

Old Earthers, new Earthers and now there's a growing movement of flat Earthers! I'm constantly amazed (and amused) at the number of people wanting to invent their own truths and coming up with ridiculous "evidence" to support their fantasies. We haven't come very far as a species in so many ways!

 

The Flat Earth Society :: Home

 

 

[turboplanner]

Watching an old earther and a young earther go at it is rather amusing, in a sad sort of way. Basically comes down to the young earther arguing they are the "better" or "truer" Christian.

Interestingly, young earth creationism is overwhelmingly Christian in nature. Very few other religions subscribe to it (including Islam - Muslim scholars quite bluntly reject it). The official church bodies which subscribe to it are 100% Christian too.

 

Young earthers cling so much to it that they created their own "creation research institutes" to scientifically show that the Earth is only 6000 years old and was made in 6 days. Oddly, these institutions have produced no Nobel Prize recipients among their alumni and made a sum total of zero revolutionary scientific discoveries.

We did get well beyond the christian stories in this forum, and last week's announcement of an aboriginal settlement and tools scientifically aged at 49,000 years old, pushes the local Australian population back a handy 10,000 years.

 

Nor do we have to worry about the earth going flat, since we can see the curvature, and many of us were given a simple equation (the only part I can remember is the suqare root of DH/2) with which to calculate the height of a building over the horizon based on the distance from the building and the height showibg above the horizon.

 

What a scientist will tell you though, is that if he hasn't found any evidence of something, that does not mean it doesn't exist, just that no evidence has been found.

 

 

[Bruce]

The Aborigines didn't advance at all in 49,000 years huh. It shows how much luck there was elsewhere for advances to happen.

 

And scientific understanding in the population is actually going backwards. Thomas Jefferson famously said that the book of revelations was plainly written by a madman. No candidate in the US these days could say such a thing.

 

In Australia, we have tax money going to religious schools, that didn't happen years ago.

 

So the outlook is gloomy, but surely those flat-earth people are mostly doing it for fun and not because they really believe it.

 

 

[facthunter]

If the earth is flat you don't go down hill so often. When Columbus set sail they were expected to fall off the edge and that's not very long ago. People don't have a good excuse for being poorly informed, today. It's a deliberate choice to ignore facts, which are so available now at an increasingly faster rate. Confusion is manufactured by the group that prefer to BELIEVE stuff rather than look at real evidence turning up. They can't cope with change so easily. Reality is too scary. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

You might agree they're just stories TP, but there are many who don't. Not so much here in Oz, but they're quite dominant in the USA. It is a relatively popular view among evangelicals that the Bible is actually the only scientific textbook you need to get an understanding of it all. Those people obviously don't apply for jobs which require any scientific education!

 

Although we did manage to elect a young earth creationist to federal parliament some years ago (Steve Fielding).

 

What a scientist will tell you though, is that if he hasn't found any evidence of something, that does not mean it doesn't exist, just that no evidence has been found.

Well yeah that's basically true, however a scientist will also tell you that just because you don't understand something or haven't found evidence for a cause of something, it doesn't mean you need to immediately look for supernatural explanations.

 

 

[facthunter]

The supernatural explanation has been readily applied throughout human history. Today where many phenomena are understood, there is a reduced need for it but people still apply it at the slightest opportunity. Kicking goals, recovering from sickness etc. Inside the Human spirit is this need for a supernatural "thing" to believe in, and each group regard their "thing" as the only correct one so the majority of GOD's are not believed in by the god believers as a group. An atheist only believes in one less god that the general believer does. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

No, you need some evidence.

[dutchroll]

Good quality evidence.

 

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" as the saying goes.

 

 

[Bruce]

Apparently there are schools in Pakistan where the only book in the school is the Koran. I guess there may be schools in the US where the only book is the Bible, but if so I've never heard of it. But I did hear a radio-preacher say how it ( the Bible) was a shield against Satan.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Apparently there are schools in Pakistan where the only book in the school is the Koran. I guess there may be schools in the US where the only book is the Bible, but if so I've never heard of it. But I did hear a radio-preacher say how it ( the Bible) was a shield against Satan.

Well if that's true Bruce, it must be an amazing book to produce methematicians, scientists, doctore, engineers etc.

 

 

[Marty_d]

The Aborigines didn't advance at all in 49,000 years huh. It shows how much luck there was elsewhere for advances to happen.And scientific understanding in the population is actually going backwards. Thomas Jefferson famously said that the book of revelations was plainly written by a madman. No candidate in the US these days could say such a thing.

 

In Australia, we have tax money going to religious schools, that didn't happen years ago.

 

So the outlook is gloomy, but surely those flat-earth people are mostly doing it for fun and not because they really believe it.

I used to think the Aborigines were backwards too, but I'm coming to the conclusion that I was wrong.

 

If a civilization lasts 50,000 years, interacting sustainably with their environment, harvesting vast areas of grain to make flour on an industrial scale (recent re-discovery of huge stone mortar and pestles dating back 17,000 years have been found, making the Aboriginals the first known civilization to make bread), had a knowledge of astronomy that meshes with modern science, and used that knowledge not only for navigation but to make accurate weather predictions - well, I don't know that we could call that "backward".

 

Thomas Jefferson was obviously right but didn't go far enough, I'd apply that conclusion to the other books too. Luckily as well as the moronic evangelicals we also have fantastic science communicators - Brian Cox, David Attenborough, Neil DeGrasse Tyson to name a few - who get good science out there in the mass media.

 

 

[facthunter]

Julius Sumner Miller and Carl Sagan. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

And best of all Aborigines invented aeronautics- thousands of years before anybody tried strapping a set of wings on and falling to their death.

 

What? The Boomerang is a sophisticated device that flies and comes back or can be used as the first flying weapon. That demonstrates a extremely advanced knowledge of science in practice. They did not just happen to find a special stick from the gods.

 

The knowledge lost when we almost exterminated them on colonisation (invasion) is staggering.

 

Us white fellas truly are savages at times.

 

 

[Guest Nightmare1]

You might agree they're just stories TP, but there are many who don't. Not so much here in Oz, but they're quite dominant in the USA. It is a relatively popular view among evangelicals that the Bible is actually the only scientific textbook you need to get an understanding of it all. Those people obviously don't apply for jobs which require any scientific education!

Although we did manage to elect a young earth creationist to federal parliament some years ago (Steve Fielding).

 

Well yeah that's basically true, however a scientist will also tell you that just because you don't understand something or haven't found evidence for a cause of something, it doesn't mean you need to immediately look for supernatural explanations.

Try to logically challenge Christians about the validity of the evidence of their faith and they get all offended. They don't want to know. I'm afraid the Inquisition is alive and well in the modern times, just toned down a bit.

I had a friend get all "offended" recently when I re-posted a funny post on FB. It had Jesus saying to Paul, "My mum was a virgin when I was born"

 

Paul replied, "Is that why 3 strange men came knocking at your mothers door, bringing gifts, the day you were born?"

 

Challenging the supernatural with a logical explanation...and funny!

 

 

[M61A1]

And best of all Aborigines invented aeronautics- thousands of years before anybody tried strapping a set of wings on and falling to their death.

What? The Boomerang is a sophisticated device that flies and comes back or can be used as the first flying weapon. That demonstrates a extremely advanced knowledge of science in practice. They did not just happen to find a special stick from the gods.

 

The knowledge lost when we almost exterminated them on colonisation (invasion) is staggering.

 

Us white fellas truly are savages at times.

Are you suggesting that you believe that the first person to make a boomerang came up with an aerodynamic design (using their advanced aerodynamic knowledge)for a tool that would fly spinning through the air and return depending on how it was launched, then set about crafting the design and then, after tweaking the aerodynamics, using their knowledge of aerodynamics, settled on the current design, or used similar process?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Old Earthers, new Earthers and now there's a growing movement of flat Earthers! I'm constantly amazed (and amused) at the number of people wanting to invent their own truths and coming up with ridiculous "evidence" to support their fantasies. We haven't come very far as a species in so many ways!The Flat Earth Society :: Home

 

Their arguments are absolutely brilliant, worth having a look at their stuff for an appraisal of why they come to these conclusions - including where, on occasion, they make "round earth" theories (but proven facts) look absurd also.

 

Of great interest to the forum is their plane route theories, they happen to stand up very well.

 

These might happen to be the most intelligent crazy people on the plate, I mean globe.

 

If the earth is flat you don't go down hill so often. When Columbus set sail they were expected to fall off the edge and that's not very long ago.

Go look at a Flat Earth map to understand that.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

That demonstrates a extremely advanced knowledge of science in practice.

I know what sort of stone skips across water best through throwing thousands of them, but I had no idea why (as a kid).

 

 

[Bruce]

That's silly stuff about the aborigines. When Europeans came to Australia they found the most primitive people on earth.

 

How could they have had agriculture and flour-milling ages ago and then lost it all? And where are the surviving plants they cultivated?

 

And why didn't they put up any resistance to Europeans when they arrived?

 

Sorry but its very hard for me to believe any civilization happened among Aboriginal tribes.

 

 

[Marty_d]

That's silly stuff about the aborigines. When Europeans came to Australia they found the most primitive people on earth.How could they have had agriculture and flour-milling ages ago and then lost it all? And where are the surviving plants they cultivated?

 

And why didn't they put up any resistance to Europeans when they arrived?

 

Sorry but its very hard for me to believe any civilization happened among Aboriginal tribes.

Were Indigenous Australians the world's first bakers?

 

Sorry, I made a mistake. The grindstones were 36,000 years old, not 17,000.

 

When you think about it logically, history is written by the winners. Admitting that Australia was not "Terra Nullius" and that the colonisation resulted in the destruction of a thriving civilisation probably wouldn't, then or now, sit well with those of us who aren't Aboriginal.

 

As to the resistance, they did - but they were outgunned, had no resistance to European diseases, no concept of British law as regards to property and no standing army.

 

I found last week's Science Show (Radio National) quite amazing as they went into the extent of atmospheric and astronomical knowledge these "primitive" people had. Transcript is here if you're interested:

 

Aboriginal stories and songs reveal scientific understanding

 

 

[Litespeed]

Are you suggesting that you believe that the first person to make a boomerang came up with an aerodynamic design (using their advanced aerodynamic knowledge)for a tool that would fly spinning through the air and return depending on how it was launched, then set about crafting the design and then, after tweaking the aerodynamics, using their knowledge of aerodynamics, settled on the current design, or used similar process?

Pretty much YES. They had to develop the design to get the results they wanted. They would have used some type of trial, error redesign etc to get the required design sought. It is called scientific method- just because we don't have any old texts describing how they did it- they still did. And many thousands of years ago.

 

And not all boomerangs have the same purpose and hence a different design.

 

Or do you subscribe to the "aliens gave them the design"? or maybe a GOD?

 

You do not get aerodynamic shaped flying sticks in nature- it is a construct of the mind and development.

 

 

[Litespeed]

That's silly stuff about the aborigines. When Europeans came to Australia they found the most primitive people on earth.How could they have had agriculture and flour-milling ages ago and then lost it all? And where are the surviving plants they cultivated?

 

And why didn't they put up any resistance to Europeans when they arrived?

 

Sorry but its very hard for me to believe any civilization happened among Aboriginal tribes.

 

And when presented with comments like that - it is hard to believe you thought much before commenting. But what you believe is only that a belief- just like the sky fairies.

 

When we white fellas invaded- we systematically sought to destroy a race of people. Possibly the greatest genocide in history- it is estimated we killed 90% of the aborigines on the mainland and every single one on Tasmania. It was government policy.

 

They had overwhelming force and the technology of guns and cannon. They also used fire and worst of all deliberately introduced diseases such as small pox infected blankets.

 

This was not by mistake or bad luck but by design and no less evil than a gas chamber in WW2.

 

The plants they farmed were naturally natives species and seed traded with northern neighbours. They traded goods all over the continent, had hundreds of different nation groups with distinct languages, had very advanced navigation skills and navigated coastal waters. Some groups were even fish farmers.

 

The notion they were just hunters and gathers is very far from the truth.

 

But it is easy to dismiss the other as less worthy and subhuman, when we call them just a savage.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's silly stuff about the aborigines. When Europeans came to Australia they found the most primitive people on earth.How could they have had agriculture and flour-milling ages ago and then lost it all? And where are the surviving plants they cultivated?

 

And why didn't they put up any resistance to Europeans when they arrived?

 

Sorry but its very hard for me to believe any civilization happened among Aboriginal tribes.

The irony in this Bruce is that for thousands of years they milled seed on your property, and the surviving plants will still be there.

 

If you managed to get out of your car and walk, you would still find grinding stones on the property.

 

They harvested fish from the Mosqito and other creeks.

 

Yet here you are in 2017 trying to rort our system by getting Newstart applicants to pick up sticks, and whining that you can't sustain the same property.

 

 

[Bruce]

Turbs, I am whining about having to pay Newstart recipients to idle away the days while I pick up the sticks myself.

 

It is more in their interests than mine that they do something active. We don't pay any attention to their mental health, and it makes me sad. It is even worse for Aboriginies, who suffer all sorts of problems from idleness.

 

They don't have to pick up my sticks, but they sure need something to do. I think some of the apparently bleeding hearts who would oppose this are really their enemies.

 

And Litespeed, I grew up in Alice Springs in the 50's and saw lots of stuff first-hand. There was none of that genocide stuff going on in my time in Central Australia, and not much before. Read up on the history of Hermannsburg mission, for example.

 

I don't want to suggest all was fine, there was the Coniston Massacre in 1928, and Aborigines featured in the aftermath of the failed Hungarian uprising in an interesting way, although much to their benefit.

 

 

[M61A1]

When we white fellas invaded- we systematically sought to destroy a race of people. Possibly the greatest genocide in history- it is estimated we killed 90% of the aborigines on the mainland and every single one on Tasmania. It was government policy.

Despite your feeling of guilt, I am not guilty of any atrocity towards the aboriginal race.

 

While the boomerang may have been "developed" and "improved", I very much doubt that the first one was anything other than a fluke find, as many famous discoveries have been. The idea that someone set out to design the first one is extremely unlikely.