Atheist knowledge

[Keenaviator]

Yes - it's a form of psychological blackmail used by the Church.

That's an interesting interpretation.

 

 

[dazza 38]

What about AD 2014 .?Lets have referendum to get rid of any possible reference to the year ,we are basicly arguing about .

 

Year 1 of the new order of disorderly conduct and" do and screw " , & "say and pray", what you like ,

 

Yea, thats a world to bring your lids up in .!

 

Mike

What about 2014 AD ? . It is just a number, just like it is currently 1435 in the Muslim year this year.

 

 

[AVOCET]

Mike, are you meaning to imply that atheists are lacking in ethical and/or moral principles? If so, I don't think you are correct; the most fundamental principles are, to my understanding, "everybody deserves a fair go" and "do unto others as you would have others do unto you". Those principles are not the exclusive prerogative of religions (quite the opposite, actually; Jihad or the old testament principles of murdering the unbelievers are as far away from this as you can get.) Atheists have to live with themselves; they can't go and confess and be forgiven.

Daffyd , it was realy a tounge in cheek joke ,

 

However , as you say those ethics originated in some form or another as some of our law

 

 

[PA.]

Back on topic.

 

[ATTACH]47481._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Hmm, I used to ride a unicycle.

 

GG you have NO idea what I think, but I'm not trying to convince myself of anything. If you are happy with your god, that's fine but you HAVE made some crazy statements really insulting to them who don't share your view of things.. You are not atheist so how would you have any idea how it feels to be one?

Well I also used to be an unbeliever (we all start that way) but yes, not an atheist. Frankly atheism and its doctrines Darwinian evolution theory and abiogenesis - I simply don't have enough faith for that stuff. You and I have one foot in the grave so to speak so it is worthwhile considering these issues.

 

I know I'm not going to heaven, but that is something I will have to cop.

It doesn't have to be Nev.... doesn't have to be.

 

Trying to save your own miserable soul might not be the best motivation alone, and the promise of eternal life is pretty attractive if it can be delivered.

So here is where the confusion lies. In Christianity no-one can save their own soul. Regardless of how many good works we might do it just isn't going to happen. Salvation is instead by faith in Christ, Ephesians 2v8 "For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift: not on the principle of works, that no one might boast."

 

This is an amazing thing to grasp; a person might have mocked God and blasphemed his name every day of his life but in literally the last minute of life (eg as the Jabiru conks and heads down towards the rocks) that person can be saved eternally by believing in Jesus Christ and calling upon Him - Acts 2v21 "And it shall be that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Many reject this as it just seems too simple. I think the most amazing portion of the book of Revelation is found in chapter 3 "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me." The door latch is on our side....

 

This sets Christianity apart from all other religions. To Daz and others it's not confusing when you analyze it as there are only two types: 1) man by repeatedly doing good works strives to reach and appease God or 2) in biblical Christianity God, despite all that we have done, is reaching out to man.

 

 

[AVOCET]

Daffyd , it was realy a tounge in cheek joke ,However , as you say those ethics originated in some form or another ,as some of our laws ,and have been taken from ,but not limited to the holy bible .

 

Hard to imagine a world without AD .....

 

Got cut off half way though a post !

[Bikky]

Atheist doctrine? Not believing in something is a doctrine? Now I'm confused. I'm off to indulge in my hobby of not collecting stamps.

 

For me, people should have the right to decide what they believe and in fitting with this "doctrine", important decisions regarding faith shouldn't be made by children. You can tell them there is a monster under the bed and they'll believe it.

 

Teaching children about heaven and hell is the same thing.

 

Children deserve better than this. Wait until they have the maturity to decide for themselves.

 

Is this a doctrine?

 

 

[Marty_d]

A question for the believers posting here.

 

Why do you believe?

 

As far as I can see, there's a sliding "God" scale. On one end he's an all-seeing, all-knowing "personal" presence who frowns when you're fantasizing about the neighbour's pretty wife and absolutely positively will send you straight to hell if you don't believe in him.

 

On the other end, he's a tinkering engineer who created time, space, matter, anti-matter and the laws of physics through the agency of the Big Bang, then left the whole thing to work itself out until it produced a species of slightly higher functioning chimp.

 

At any stage in between he's got some level of omniscience and ability to apply his will to human endeavour.

 

So: If you believe in the first type of deity, then you have some pretty hard questions to answer - why are the strict instructions you follow correct, and not all the other belief systems? What happens to all the people throughout history, who through distance or other circumstance, never ever heard of your god? Are they all sent to hell too? Why does he insist on the petty things listed in your holy book - not eating pork, no sex outside marriage, no gays, all the other things that really have no negative impacts on anyone? (except pigs. And even then there's an argument that if they weren't useful food animals they'd probably be extinct.)

 

If you believe in the "watchmaker" type, then your belief or lack thereof is of supreme indifference to that god. So why bother?

 

If he's somewhere in the middle, ie not being the jealous petty god of the old testament but having some interest in our species, then wouldn't he be reasonable enough to know if someone is a good person or not, whether or not they believe?

 

There's been a lot of waffle, mainly from Gnu, about how capital A Atheism is a religion itself and more dangerous than all the others. And a lot of good responses, from people who see no reason to believe in Gnu's god, about how labeling someone "Atheist" is like labeling them "Non-Skier" or "Non-Stamp Collector". The only danger that atheists present is that they might give someone the idea of using their brain for thinking.

 

 

[Bikky]

Eternity! The mere concept scares the bejesus (literally) out of me.

 

I'm really glad that I'm subject to the laws of the universe in that I have a use by date.

 

Do you know why angels sit around on clouds playing harps and praising god?

 

Because there's absolutely nothing left to do.

 

Who wants to live forever? Think about it for a moment. The first few years would be OK. You would get to do all things you never had the nerve or opportunity to do when you were alive. Bungee jumping, skydiving, base jumping - a myriad of possibly fatal activities. I mean you can't die, right?

 

But wait ... no danger, no adrenaline, no thrill.

 

Alright, wheres my harp?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Frankly atheism and its doctrines

What doctrines?? Stopping someone from forcing there mythical doctrines onto me and my children isn't a doctrine.

 

And you are correct, we are all born non-believers, that should tell you that it isn't natural to believe in a God.

 

I repeat, you have this totally arrs about face, it is your ilk going around trying to shove your doctrines down peoples throats, all I do is mock you for it, mocking isn't a doctrine - and this is appropriately in the laughter section and has given me plenty of chuckles

 

This sets Christianity apart from all other religions.

Oh yeah, there it is again, my religion is better than those other ones - and (historically) I'll kill you to make sure you understand that.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...as the Jabiru conks and heads down towards the rocks) that person can be saved eternally by believing in Jesus Christ...

Give that man a cigar for connecting two threads!

 

 

[Bikky]

Because this is the aviation laughter section. Religion makes me laugh!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

as the Jabiru conks and heads down towards the rocks

So, why did God stop the engine, because let us not forget that God is responsible for everything ...?

 

Ephesians 4:6

 

one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

John 1 : 3

 

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

Maybe God is just a bit of a shonky metallurgist, or gets stuff from China.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

What about 2014 AD ? . It is just a number, just like it is currently 1435 in the Muslim year this year.

If we had a choice (and let's be realistic, most humans seem to need religion) which of those creeds would we prefer...?

 

How many times throughout history has one tyranny been defeated and replaced by a worse one?

 

 

[nomadpete]

Does that imply that there is a problem caused by replacing the tyranny of 'beliefs' with rational thought?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Does that imply that there is a problem caused by replacing the tyranny of 'beliefs' with rational thought?

Too plurry right! If only it were that simple, Pete. So many previous revolutions came a cropper because old jealousies and superstitions prevailed over reason and humanity (or more likely, were hijacked by smart, but amoral operators. After a lifetime supporting well-intentioned movements which have fallen off the rails due to the limitations of human nature, I am inclined to be a bit skeptical about this one.

 

I can't believe I said that. I must be spending too much time around SDQDI!

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Give that man a cigar for connecting two threads!

Well, he missed the gold watch and chain, didn't he?

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Too plurry right! If only it were that simple, Pete. So many previous revolutions came a cropper because old jealousies and superstitions prevailed over reason and humanity (or more likely, were hijacked by smart, but amoral operators. After a lifetime supporting well-intentioned movements which have fallen off the rails due to the limitations of human nature, I am inclined to be a bit skeptical about this one.

I can't believe I said that. I must be spending too much time around SDQDI!

"This one"? What movement? Do you mean that being allowed to think for one's self is a "movement"? I don't know of any atheist movement - or are you seeing Dawkins as (evidently) GG sees him, as something equivalent to the Ayatollah Khomeini? There's a difference by which one can distinguish them - the Ayatollah told people to revert to religious fundamentalism, with all the repression that goes with it - like shooting women who seek education, marrying nine-year old girls, that sort of thing. Dawkins merely tells people to think for themselves. And no, I'm not the least interested in rushing off to listen to him.

 

 

[AVOCET]

T

 

What about 2014 AD ? . It is just a number, just like it is currently 1435 in the Muslim year this year.

Try sticking 1435 on your next flight plan or your tax return , or give your date of birth to a copa , or the next ramp check

 

In the west and the world at large ,

 

at least its still AD

 

I dont have a problem with what any bodyelse believes , my homes welcome to all ,

 

It makes me laugh when people try and tell me what i believe , as if anybody would know .

 

I gave up on humanity as a whole after i found out they dropped the bomb , and then went on to build and stockpile enough nukes to to blow us up 100 times .

 

As if once is not enough .

 

My personal experience with the truth transcends any pety argument about whos right or wrong , and who's, who , especially on this forum ,when god calls you ( time and season ) ( turn turn turn)as the song goes . The experiance i had , ( the same as on the day of penticost ) is hard to denigh , my wife saw such a change in me that after trying to denigh it with such gusto as any one here , finally was baptized and recived the gift also , and that my friends is that , We carnt denigh it ,

 

Sure We are strange , a little frenetical , but generally normal folk ,Make fun all you like , mock and tease , as the scripture says :

 

I know who ive believed in ,

 

and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which Ive committed unto him , againts that day .

 

Gees , take a look and tell me if we , as a race are actually making progress .

 

There is a battle going on ,and the birth pangs to allout , seems to me to be gettimg more intense .

 

Icarnt help making the conection to today , when I read OT history ,

 

Specialy the one about sodom & such ,

 

Weather you think its a fairy tail or not , history is history , Ah , but whose version . Whats happening now is no fairy tail ,

 

Guarantee we 'll

 

all find out one day, some sooner than others hay.

 

Mike

 

 

[turboplanner]

Anyway back to the thread. I guess when the Ark of covenant found, opened and the 10 comandments written in stone are found in there. I will start believing, I need concrete proof. Just dig up Mount Nebo until its found.

You'll be a long time then.

 

The Ark of the Covenant was an instrument or appliance which Moses stole from Egypt.

 

It certainly wasn't an empty box with a couple of tablets of stone inside.

 

Moses had been mentored by the Pharaoh's family and priests in Egypt and knew most of the technology, and this was a neat piece of equipment.

 

There were strict instructions for its handling including the insulation required by anyone working near it or carrying it.

 

The Israelites were simple people and had no understanding and believed Yahweh live in it and he seemed to be a snarling spitting monster - this could equally be the sights and sound of very high voltage.

 

The story about the ten commandments on two tablets of stone could have been as a result of various people disregarding the "Danger Do Not Touch" instruction and being fried - apparently the took more notice of God.

 

It was reputed to be able to level stone military walls and kill people in large numbers and was used in battle by the Israelites for years.

 

At one stage even Moses got careless and it burned off half his face. From that time he wore a leather covering over is disfigured head.

 

One of the US Universities built an Ark from the detailed specification in the Bible and it produced a current.

 

The Ark was stored in Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem for many years, but disappeared and there was an inference that Solomon's son stole it, and while Graham Hancock traced its path from various texts back to Egypt and eventually to Ethiopia the story ended with a fairly unsatisfactory exchange where an Ethiopian priest allegedly guarding the Ark said it was indeed in a particular Church, but not available for viewing.

 

If it was found it might only confirm it was a machine which the Egyptians had designed a military weapon, or had been given to them by the VHC which taught those hunter gatherers brilliant skills almost overnight - certainly without any evidence of evolution.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Glad to hear you will be one of the 144,000 Mike.

 

Me, I see it a different way.

 

None of us have the mental capacity to understand the end, the nothingness that will come after death. You practice dying all your life every time you go to sleep when all your systems shut down except for heart, breathing and your bladder.

 

But we wake up every time and we live with the expectation that we will wake up somewhere, somehow after we die, that part isn't crazy, it's just nature.

 

I accept there is nothing but, of course, can't comprehend it and the best I can do is get my ashes scattered into an ocean and imagine I will travel over the globe for the rest of eternity. Or until some fish eats me and I end up as poo on the ocean floor.

 

The Ark was stored in Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem for many years, but disappeared and there was an inference that Solomon's son stole it, and while Graham Hancock traced its path from various texts back to Egypt and eventually to Ethiopia the story ended with a fairly unsatisfactory exchange where an Ethiopian priest allegedly guarding the Ark said it was indeed in a particular Church, but not available for viewing.

Yeah, yeah, yet another Bible artifact of incredible historic importance, one that could change the entire structures of every known culture, but can't be found - just add it to the long list. The list of "no proof".

 

Even though Christians would like to believe there is some sort of underground secret society/ies to protect these numbers of mythical artifacts from the World (and the foundation of many a movie), the undeniable and historically indisputable truth is that GREED always wins, just ahead of EGO. Every one of these legendary artifacts would be priceless and that's enough to temp many men to disclosure for fortune and fame.

 

Hasn't happened in 5000+ years apparently, bit strange when it's taken into consideration all the other important historical artifacts that have been found, traded and will continue to change hands.

 

The Israelites were simple people and had no understanding and believed Yahweh live in it and he seemed to be a snarling spitting monster - this could equally be the sights and sound of very high voltage.

Or a cat. Cats don't like being kept in boxes and moved around. And they sound like high voltage.

 

 

[dazza 38]

T

Try sticking 1435 on your next flight plan or your tax return , or give your date of birth to a copa , or the next ramp check

 

In the west and the world at large ,

 

at least its still AD

 

Mike

You're missing the point. Who is to say that our date is correct and the muslim date is wrong ? Who is to say that christianity is the real religion and all the other ones are wrong ?

 

BTW - carnt isnt a word and either is denigh. It is can't and deny

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Moses was probably of the Egyptian royal family. For example Tuthmose 1 named two of his sons Amenmose and Wadjmose. The Israelites made up the story about him being found in the bulrushes so they didn't have to admit the big boss was one of the hated Royalty. So he had every chance to pinch Egyptian stuff before he fled with the Israelites. No magic required.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

"This one"? What movement? ...

I mean the rapidly-escalating movement to kick Christianity while it's down. In the religious vacuum this leaves, many much more extreme religions are taking hold in our community, even buying up disused churches. At least most mainstream churches had (recently) been forced to adapt to modern liberal attitudes. The faiths replacing them will not.

 

Better the devil you know...

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

You're missing the point. Who is to say that our date is correct and the muslim date is wrong ? Who is to say that christianity is the real religion and all the other ones are wrong ?BTW - carnt isnt a word and either is denigh. It is can't and deny

More to the point, who cares?