Atheist knowledge

[Marty_d]

Congrats Don Ramsay for the 500th post in this "joke"!

 

 

[octave]

I am an atheist. I do not sit at home worshipping in front of a picture of Richard Dawkins, I do not want world domination, I do not want to stop anyone from believing in anything.

 

I think that all religions are illogical, if I talk more about Christianity than other religions it is only because I have never had a Hindu knock on my door and try to convert me, I don't see Buddhists lobbying the government to change laws to suit their beliefs.

 

I have no problem with school students studying comparative religion but once you allow prosthelytizing then how do you decide which religions or denominations. Faith is a personal thing

 

What does concern me is the lack of scientific literacy. This amazing life we lead owes so much to science and yet so many people bag scientists and scientific method whilst enjoying the fruits of science.

 

Within science there are well established theories (and if anyone says it is just a theory, you are just showing your lack of scientific literacy - look up what scientific theory means). We can reliably measure the age of the universe, we can measure the rate of expansion and extrapolate back to the beginning (Hubble's Law). Likewise however much some of you like to say the the Theory of evolution is on the way out it is simply not true. The evidence is much more wide ranging than many think. The evidence mounts as we learn more in areas like genetics. Indeed this is crucial knowledge when dealing with problems like Ebola which thus far is only transmitted by direct contact with bodily fluids but we KNOW that viruses mutate and it is quite possible that any mutation could be to the viruses benefit, allowing it to spread through the air like flu.

 

By the way I knew I was an atheist when I was quite young and long before I had even heard of the Theory of evolution or heard of Charles Darwin or Alfred Russell Wallace. If evidence came along that falsified the theory of evolution it would not mean that I would suddenly believe in a supernatural being.

 

Turbs you assert all sorts of thing which are quite hard to check. The reconstruction of the ark for instance, surely if this was true why has it seemingly not been replicated, as a curious person I want to see pictures I want to read engineers reports, I can't be satisfied with vague claims that have not been repeated.

 

As for the conclusion that atheism means living some kind of empty soulless existence is just irrational nonsense. I have been a professional musician all my life, music is one of the greats loves of my life (teaching, playing, listening). As a teenager I was obsessed with astronomy, being an active member of my local Astronomical Society, spending many nights outside with my telescope, spending time talking to amateur and professional astronomers. To me what we know about the cosmology of the beginning of the universe is much richer and deeper than saying "I can't understand where the universe came from so magic man in the sky must have done it"

 

Here are some of the problems I have with Bible (or at least a literal interpretation of it) :

 

In the creation story there is no mention of the 100 billion or so galaxies in the observable universe, what is their purpose, why create so much.

 

The ark, I mean really just consider Australian animals and birds, even just considering all the members of the Kangaroo and Wallaby family. Funny that Kangaroos are not mentioned in the Bible is almost as if the writers of the Bible had no knowledge of the world outside their region.

 

I like eating shellfish and I do quite like my new shirt, it is made of polyester AND cotton.

 

I have many many more problems with the Bible, far too many to detail here.

 

In conclusion, GG you seem to know a lot about the motivations and lives of atheists, I am not sure where your opinion on atheists comes from but what you are describing is not me or any of my friends who happen to be atheist, by the way I do have Christian friends and I also know an Astronomer who is a Christian (although obviously not a Biblical literalist)

 

Cheers

 

 

[Marty_d]

Octave, I agree with everything you said there except for this:

 

I do quite like my new shirt, it is made of polyester AND cotton.

Polyester? Really?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Couple of points here that I disagree with slightly.

I'll do some more digging

 

 

[DonRamsay]

It's exactly the opposite Don and you know it. No Christians is demanding you to surrender your atheism, that is absurd. Yet the atheists here are the ones demanding the closing of the thread (you still recall saying that?)

"Demand"? that is a deliberate and spiteful twisting of words. I suggested in the softest of words that there was little to be gained by continuing the thread and that friendships could be damaged. How is that demanding that it be shut down? Apology from you GG required for that unkind distortion .

 

. . . the blocking of children's ears from hearing any discussion of faith . . .

"discussion of faith" is another distortion of what you want to happen. It has been said many times above that the objection is to religious indoctrination in one particular faith before a child reaches the age of reason (set by the church at 7 years). We have frequently written above that education about a range of religions could be useful at the appropriate age. On the other hand, secular, practical, logical ETHICS could be taught at any age to good effect.

 

. . . .or even daring to point out the lack of scientific evidence for the holy atheist doctrine of Darwinian evolution.

"Scientific Theory" has a particular meaning that is not reflected in the vernacular use of the word "theory". Only religion claims to have all the answers with no proof required. Science has a process for putting and testing an hypothesis and repeatability of the test outcomes. To help you see the difference, Einstein's writing on general and special relativity are still referred to as "Theory". However, there is no credible scientist who would ignore it because it was "just a theory". It is not fully explained to the extent that scientists don't know everything (only your god claims that ability). There is still plenty of work going on to come up with a unified theory of everything but the people who are attempting that stand on the shoulders of giants like Newton and Einstein (or Mrs Einstein if you like). And they do this work under a barrage of christian criticism for daring to think that not all knowledge comes exclusively from texts written thousands of years BCE.

 

No person with a scintilla of genuine intellect could equate a scientific theory with a "holy atheist doctrine ". Even a linguist who has never studied science would understand the illogicality of something being both "holy" and "atheistic". Scientific method is the logical opposite of bigotry. And the only bigots facing religious people are people who are not of their particular persuasion of religion.

 

GG, you still don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that there is no bible of atheism that requires all "devout" atheists to be ANTI-theists or anti-religion. I am not anti religion other than when it attempts to run my life or take it from me. Happy to be bound by the law of the land and, better than that, by ethics. I have never cheated on my tax return because I think that would be unethical - not just because it may be illegal and I could be punished for it.

 

Anyone can look at the fruits - atheist governments have historically murdered the most people of all and give the least freedom, you'll just have to live with that inconvenient fact.

Where, GG, in wikipedia did you come up with that "fact"? A reference would be useful otherwise it is just propaganda. Name one or two atheist governments other than communists.

 

Christians committed genocide against Muslims in the former Yugoslav Republic as ethnic cleansing (read religious purification). Christians fought each other in WW1 murdering scores of millions of people for "God, King and Country" - ironically, the same God. The leading Nazis were brought up in Catholic Bavaria. The Romans raped and pillaged across the known world but were a lot more religious than you as they had many, many Gods.

 

The Soviet Union under Stalin murdered 10s of millions of people as potential political enemies not as an act of anti-religious persecution. And the extremely religious ISIL boys just murdered 32o children, women and men in Iraq because they were not of the same sect of Islam. Ain't religion a wonderful thing compared with atheism?

 

Please, no more of your fundamentalist christian codswallop about all atheists being immoral, murdering swine. There are plenty of very religious believers in your God that are killing innocent people NOW because they don't believe in your God.

 

See you are not just an atheist Don you are specifically anti-Christian. All of the other faiths don't bother you like this one does, I'm sure if you hit your thumb you don't curse Mohammad or Buddha. That is your choice however every day you enjoy the benefits and freedoms and laws that the western world has, a good deal of which has come from Christianity. So I tend to view anti-Christian bigots living in the west as just freeloaders who despise the very culture they benefit from.

We have the freedoms we have now not because of the Christian faith but despite it. Enlightenment has meant that in western democracies you can have any faith or none at all and not be persecuted for it as was done when Christian Churches held political power. Scientists (e.g. Bruno) don't get burnt at the stake now because they argue that the Earth rotates around the Sun even though that conflicts with the Church's reading of the scriptures. Why? Because the Christian Churches no longer rule non-christians lives and let's all thank God for that.

 

Still pedaling this utter dishonesty I see.

I take that as seriously ill-informed, illogical and offensive. Apology required.

 

If Judaism had Abraham as a prophet and Christianity carried Abraham over and Islam recognises Abraham as a prophet . . . how can you be arguing that Allah is not the God of Abraham? You seem to think that making baseless assertions and tossing in gratuitous personal insults is a form of argument. Well it may have been for your very christian friends in the Holy Inquisition but has no basis in literate, cogent argument.

 

See if you actually read the primary sources you can understand this stuff and then don't have to rely on fabrications and quotes from fundamental atheist websites. Unless you prefer to stick with the latter of course.

So you've read the "primary sources" . . . in the original 7th Century Arabic I suppose or perhaps just been told the story by a completely unbiased christian minister? No, that couldn't be correct, you have undergone a thorough study of the Koran under a reputable Sheik - what could I have been thinking?

 

Point of the above is what I was fearing even predicting at post #104. We now have unholy division created not by differences on the thing (aviation) that introduced us and for which we respect each other's opinions but over myths and legends and gratuitous insults.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

And after 505 posts, despite some fun repelling nonsense, I know not one thing more about aviation.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

But, there's always room for one more joke:

 

A doctor, a civil engineer, and a computer scientist were arguing about what was the oldest profession in the world.

 

The doctor remarked, 'Well, in the Bible it says that God created Eve from a rib taken from Adam. This clearly required surgery, so I can rightly claim that mine is the oldest profession in the world.'

 

The civil engineer interrupted and said, 'But even earlier in the book of Genesis, it states that God created the order of the heavens and the earth from out of the chaos. This was the first and certainly the most spectacular application of civil engineering. Therefore, you are wrong doctor; mine is the oldest profession in the world.'

 

The computer scientist leaned back in his chair, smiled and said confidently, 'Ah, but who do you think created the chaos?'

 

[rgmwa]

And after 505 posts, despite some fun repelling nonsense, I know not one thing more about aviation.

Maybe Ian should change the name of the site from Recreational Flying to Recreational Salvation to make it more relevant.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Marty_d]

But, there's always room for one more joke:

 

 

A doctor, a civil engineer, and a computer scientist were arguing about what was the oldest profession in the world.

 

The doctor remarked, 'Well, in the Bible it says that God created Eve from a rib taken from Adam. This clearly required surgery, so I can rightly claim that mine is the oldest profession in the world.'

 

The civil engineer interrupted and said, 'But even earlier in the book of Genesis, it states that God created the order of the heavens and the earth from out of the chaos. This was the first and certainly the most spectacular application of civil engineering. Therefore, you are wrong doctor; mine is the oldest profession in the world.'

 

The computer scientist leaned back in his chair, smiled and said confidently, 'Ah, but who do you think created the chaos?'

Where the hell would you get a doctor, a civil engineer and a computer scientist, who all believed Genesis??

 

 

[turboplanner]

And after 505 posts, despite some fun repelling nonsense, I know not one thing more about aviation.

You'll just have to pay more attention to thread headings and categories.

 

 

[facthunter]

Threads have a life of their own. Once it starts all participants have some ownership of it. I thank some of the serious contributors to this subject as they have put a lot into it and shown many aspects of their personal feelings and values. It isn't a subject for forums like this, and I don't think it should be . I haven't responded previously, but I thought I would be a bit gutless if I just let a few carry one side of the argument for me. We should feel free to express ourselves with out being accused of being some inferior group with an ulterior motive. It's a serious subject and to have it in Aviation Laughter is wrong. It started out on the wrong foot clearly, asserting atheist knowledge is a joke.. Somewhat offensive to some. I have never consciously set out to ridicule anyone, I hope. Thanks to the ones who communicated their personal experiences honestly. I always appreciate it. Nev

 

 

[AVOCET]

We

 

Threads have a life of their own. Once it starts all participants have some ownership of it. I thank some of the serious contributors to this subject as they have put a lot into it and shown many aspects of their personal feelings and values. It isn't a subject for forums like this, and I don't think it should be . I haven't responded previously, but I thought I would be a bit gutless if I just let a few carry one side of the argument for me. We should feel free to express ourselves with out being accused of being some inferior group with an ulterior motive. It's a serious subject and to have it in Aviation Laughter is wrong. It started out on the wrong foot clearly, asserting atheist knowledge is a joke.. Somewhat offensive to some. I have never consciously set out to ridicule anyone, I hope. Thanks to the ones who communicated their personal experiences honestly. I always appreciate it. Nev

 

Well said Nev .

 

 

[dazza 38]

This could all be solved in a day or two if somebody could find the ark. I don't care which ark, either Noahs Ark or the Ark of covenant will do. Now is that too much to ask ?

 

Oh no, hang on, I hope nobody used Noahs Ark for fire wood.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

The transitional species ate it.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Yet the atheists here are the ones demanding the blocking of children's ears from hearing any discussion of faith

How many times do you need to be told? Seriously? There's many who have expressed a very clear position statement on this topic and yet ....

 

or even daring to point out the lack of scientific evidence for the holy atheist doctrine of Darwinian evolution.

Again with the "Athiest have a doctrine" in the face of previous posts. I don't give a toss about Darwin or myths, we are here, we don't know why except rule number 1:

 

Procreation. And I do my part as often as I can.

 

Anyone can look at the fruits - atheist governments have historically murdered the most people of all and give the least freedom, you'll just have to live with that inconvenient fact.

Nonsense. History is documented, go read it all, not just the tidbits that suit.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

And after 505 posts, despite some fun repelling nonsense, I know not one thing more about aviation.

It is in the off topic joke section - where it should be.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Don must have been put in the naughty corner, I only see 489 posts now, what are you all carrying on about?

 

 

[nomadpete]

Don must have been put in the naughty corner, I only see 489 posts now, what are you all carrying on about?

Rank, it looks like you Aren't one of the chosen ones after all

 

 

[nomadpete]

Apart from a few unfriendly personal attacks , this thread has been a great source of inspiration (I've never spent so much time googling things). Don't underestimate how much positive thought has been inspired by all the views presented, so much logical debate. And, after all, that's a great result in itself,

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Nonsense. History is documented, go read it all, not just the tidbits that suit.

Tens of millions of dead people (i.e. tidbits to you) under Stalin, Mao, Kim xx, Che, Castro and others imply that atheism is not an inherently peaceful or freedom loving philosophy - unless you mean 'peaceful' in the sense Moslems mean it (dead bodies = peace).

 

That's not to say some individual Athi's are not quite nice people, I refer to the collective outcome or fruit of the faith. Not to make light of those that wrongly suffered or died at the hand of people claiming to be doing it for Christian reasons - or Buddhist etc. My Chicom friend holds Mao as a hero and has lame excuses that 'he didn't know everyone was dying', for more recent events in that area like Tienanmen 'the students started shooting the soldiers' and stuff like that, I expect you may fill us in with more.

 

This teaches us that irrespective of beliefs mankind is inherently deeply flawed - as both the Bible teaches and Daffyd here has told us. This is the opposite to humanist dogma which is that everyone is inherently good and we just need to be nicer to them to bring out the goodness. Possibly a well intentioned theory but demonstrably wrong.

 

 

[horsefeathers]

Atheism is NOT a philosophy, GG.

 

The tyrants you mention were driven by a Marxist philosophy.

 

To continue this "atheists are inherently evil" line is a nonsense.

 

To quote Sam Harris

 

We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.

 

 

And just by the way, your statement

 

Tens of millions of dead people (i.e. tidbits to you) is so incredibly offensive to any normal person, I cannot understand where you come from, if you (and your oh so caring Christian faith) truly believe that atheists value other people's lives so little. Do you REALLY think that?

 

 

[rgmwa]

Gnu, history demonstrates pretty clearly that people of blind faith, no faith and all shades of faith in between are collectively responsible for what has happened in the past and continues today. I don't understand why you persist in demonising one particular group when there is plenty of culpability to go around.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

if you (and your oh so caring Christian faith) truly believe that atheists value other people's lives so little. Do you REALLY think that?

Speaking only for myself, yes indeed I do horse. I see this in the countries past and present governed by the atheist faith (you cannot scientifically prove no God, ergo it's a faith). I've spoken to people who were imprisoned in some of these atheist countries (one a good friend) simply for being a Christian, yet I'm not seeing much of the reverse happening. Now I don't suppose you care to start discussing related aspects like abortion (infanticide)? I might seem blunt at times but you apparently think it's sweet and caring to not point this stuff out I presume? I believe there is a judgement to come for all people and nations, best people are warned.

 

 

[AVOCET]

Im afraid I'm ditto on that one ,

 

Mike

 

 

[dazza 38]

In a nut shell - christians cannot prove god exists and atheists cannot prove he doesn't exist.Lets just for a minute say yep he does exist, then why in gods name ( pardon the pun) does he sit idle & let innocent people die with examples like accidents, murder ,wars and let the bad arsxes live ? Not a very good god IMO.