Atheist knowledge

[Gnarly Gnu]

christians cannot prove god exists and atheists cannot prove he doesn't exist

Yes, as I've been saying we both rely on faith.

 

As to the unjust claim Dazza this is explained in the Bible. It would be too lengthy to go into here but there are a good many articles on this matter if you are averse to reading scripture (here is one I just found and this is another). We are talking about God who - on our behalf - turned his face away whilst his own son suffered and died, he absolutely is painfully aware of the awful effect of sin on mankind. Romans 5 "for we being still without strength, in the due time Christ has died for the ungodly. For scarcely for the just man will one die, for perhaps for the good man some one might also dare to die; but God commends *his* love to us, in that, we being still sinners, Christ has died for us."

 

This is an extraordinary thing.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Yes, as I've been saying we both rely on faith.

As to the unjust claim Dazza this is explained in the Bible. It would be too lengthy to go into here but there are a good many articles on this matter if you are averse to reading scripture (here is one I just found and this is another). We are talking about God who - on our behalf - turned his face away whilst his own son suffered and died, he absolutely is painfully aware of the awful effect of sin on mankind. Romans 5 "for we being still without strength, in the due time Christ has died for the ungodly. For scarcely for the just man will one die, for perhaps for the good man some one might also dare to die; but God commends *his* love to us, in that, we being still sinners, Christ has died for us."

 

This is an extraordinary thing.

But every single believer I have ever met, rattles off quotes from the scriptures,who is to say that the scriptures are actually true ? Who wrote the bible ?

 

 

[Marty_d]

Yes, as I've been saying we both rely on faith.

As to the unjust claim Dazza this is explained in the Bible. It would be too lengthy to go into here but there are a good many articles on this matter if you are averse to reading scripture (here is one I just found and this is another). We are talking about God who - on our behalf - turned his face away whilst his own son suffered and died, he absolutely is painfully aware of the awful effect of sin on mankind. Romans 5 "for we being still without strength, in the due time Christ has died for the ungodly. For scarcely for the just man will one die, for perhaps for the good man some one might also dare to die; but God commends *his* love to us, in that, we being still sinners, Christ has died for us."

 

This is an extraordinary thing.

Extraordinary is one word. "Unbelievable" would be a better one. Don't tell me you're getting the point.

 

 

[horsefeathers]

Speaking only for myself, yes indeed I do horse. I see this in the countries past and present governed by the atheist faith (you cannot scientifically prove no God, ergo it's a faith). I've spoken to people who were imprisoned in some of these atheist countries (one a good friend) simply for being a Christian, yet I'm not seeing much of the reverse happening. Now I don't suppose you care to start discussing related aspects like abortion (infanticide)? I might seem blunt at times but you apparently think it's sweet and caring to not point this stuff out I presume? I believe there is a judgement to come for all people and nations, best people are warned.

....you cannot scientifically prove no God, ergo it's a faith.....

 

- utter, utter cods-wallop. I cannot PROVE there are no polka dotted geese. You cannot PROVE a negative existential proposition. How you can go from a universal negative to prove another concept is weird, and totally illogical. I choose to not believe in a god, or follow a faith based belief system, yet that non belief then becomes a faith?? Rubbish. Faith requires belief.

 

Do you believe in the non-existence of gods from other religions? What about Jupiter, Mars and the other Roman gods. You are implicitly making the negative existential claim that all gods contradictory to the Christian god do not exist. Rather an arrogant belief system, denying all other religions any validity, dont you think?

 

I'm not sure why the abortion argument is being dragged out, but tread carefully, or you'll become aware that lots of christians participate, and even our esteemed ex jesuit Prime Miniser allows abortion to proceed. Don't know what point you're trying to make.

 

And if you want things pointed out, what about the rampant child abuse by religious clergy being uncovered by the Royal Commission. Religion and faith doesnt seem to stop them getting their hands dirty. Didnt see many atheists being interrogated by the Royal Commission.

 

Religion doesnt automatically make you a better or worse person. Being an atheist doesnt automatically make you a better or worse person.

 

 

[dazza 38]

What I said previously about the house we lived in is 100 percent true. As I mentioned previously, have a open mind. I dont think life after death is black and white. I have no idea what happens, i have watch the TV show with the physic Kelvin Cruickshank and others like him. They have worked out stuff that they could not have possibly known without being some sort of physic. Whether this has anything to do with religion, I have no idea.

 

 

[octave]

I like freedom and Atheism is a belief system for those with totalitarian views. Plenty of examples on this thread how they want to impose their faith and doctrines on everyone else, just because they smugly claim to know better.

Dawkins is a pompous fool (Ps 14v1) but I'll credit him with honesty in that at least he says 6 out of 7, he realizes that to claim 7 (as the Athi's here apparently do) requires scientific proof of which there is non and this puts Atheism firmly into the position of being a faith.

before you proclaim your judgement on atheists perhaps you should consider Luke 6:37-42

 

In your view, when you die, you will be off to heaven for an eternity of bliss or whatever, whilst us atheist will go on to eternal flame and red hot pokers up the bottom - so why do you seem so angry? if you are right then you win and we lose, if I were you I would just be quietly smug and look forward to structural failure or some kind of stall/spin accident,

 

 

[DonRamsay]

You'll just have to pay more attention to thread headings and categories.

Good point Turbs :-).

 

What was I inferring though was that I've spent so much time here trying to refute the indescribably inane without getting through that I could have been better occupied learning something that might actually make my flying safer me and those who fly with me and live under where I fly.

 

But, don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed offering some logic to counter the mysticism and handed down superstitions. I have very much enjoyed (intellectually) the clever and often humorous posts of some. But, it is frustrating when a logical argument is met with an "argument" in response doesn't even rise to the level of childish bickering.

 

Clearly, none of this criticism is aimed at your informed and deeply researched work which I have appreciated as much as anyone challenging creationism.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I see this in the countries past and present governed by the atheist faith (you cannot scientifically prove no God, ergo it's a faith). I've spoken to people who were imprisoned in some of these atheist countries (one a good friend) simply for being a Christian,

Well you'll be happy to know that all religions are alive and well in Athiest China. Kind of explains your previous nasty comments on China by the way, I'm serious when I say "Not very Christian of you".

 

Very close Christian Chinese friends hold Church every Saturday. This is their aluminium extrusion company, Gospel Wings Aluminium - http://www.gospelaluminium.en.ecplaza.net/

 

But if you come over and try to convert anybody, you'll find yourself on the first plane out. China has 100% tolerance of (normal) religions, zero tolerance of God Bother'ers. I hazard a guess your friend was a God Botherer or carried a Bible which is illegal in some countries. Don't break the law.

 

I think our tolerance of Multiculturism would start a whole new thread.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Yes, as I've been saying we both rely on faith.

I don't rely on faith, you do, I don't go around believing there isn't a God and smiling cause there's not, I don't go around preaching there isn't a God, I simply don't CARE. Jeeeesus Christ.

 

Oops, blasphemy, looks like another flat tyre, Friday night, peak hour traffic in the rain for me

 

Clearly, none of this criticism is aimed at your informed and deeply researched work which I have appreciated as much as anyone challenging creationism.

Indeed, Turbs has done well.

 

whilst us atheist will go on to eternal flame and red hot pokers up the bottom -,

Oh, I didn't realise there were such bonuses for being Atheist!

 

 

[DonRamsay]

. . . This teaches us that irrespective of beliefs mankind is inherently deeply flawed - as both the Bible teaches and Daffyd here has told us. This is the opposite to humanist dogma which is that everyone is inherently good and we just need to be nicer to them to bring out the goodness. Possibly a well intentioned theory but demonstrably wrong.

What a sad, depressing, gnarly world you exist in GG, no wonder you hanker for something better in your next incarnation. I have been fortunate enough to visit every inhabited continent on this planet. I have met just about every kind of person you could imagine. The one thing I find in common whether it is up the Nile or in the back blocks of China or on the high Andes plateau of Peru - people are inherently good, kind, generous and funny. I've shared a practical joke with an Egyptian peasant on the banks of the upper Nile even though we didn't have more than a word or two of common language between us. Wealth or lack of it (apart from abject life threatening poverty) does not have any relationship to happiness or goodness - almost the reverse. Some of the happiest people I've met have virtually zero wealth but enough to live on and that is all they crave.

 

I'm not saying there are no evil people in the world. Sadly there are a few. Many of those suffer from psychological or psychiatric disorders and/or were raised in a regrettable culture. Man has evolved a big brain so that he can survive better in larger social groups than just the immediate family. Some have put that big brain to work and landed men on the Moon. Some like Emmanuel Kant have thought deeper about existence than I am comfortable with. I see a world filled with an overwhelming majority of good hearted, well intentioned, generous people. That has been my personal experience.

 

You see a world of sinners, people so inherently evil that even by good works they can't redeem themselves. You see everyone who does not share your beliefs as infidels destined for hellfire for all eternity. You tolerate this land of Sodom and Gomorrah only because you will be one of the chosen few to enjoy perpetual bliss in the next life.

 

And how did you come by this depressing belief? Somebody told you that you should believe and you accepted their word for it unquestioningly. You are quite prepared to live your life on a user manual written for superstitious goat herders who through no fault of their own knew no better. People who knew nothing of the scientific knowledge that we are blessed with now. You would have adulterers and homosexuals, blasphemers and critics stoned to death if the civil law did not forbid it.

 

I know great music and great art are come from the highest intellects but that anyone can sing or whistle a tune. Living ethically is rewarding. Having an open mind to all things is a joy and generates endless discoveries of new (to me) knowledge.

 

And you think I should give up my world for yours? Shut my mind to Science when the scriptures appear to say the opposite as Galileo Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler, Bruno and so many others were required to do?

 

Not in this lifetime, GG.

 

 

[Bikky]

There seem to be two types of truth. The self-evident truth - by this I mean observable, universal, measurable and unarguably true and the divine.

 

One is true all the time regardless of personal belief and the other exists only for those that can choose to believe.

 

Divine truths change dependent on the particular belief.

 

I believe in the first because I have no option and it won't change even if I want it to. It's a constant.

 

I'm happy with it.

 

 

[facthunter]

Good summary Don. I hope I'm not bitter but I wouldn't want anyone to go through the religious persecution I did for being non-Catholic. I had hoped knowledge would have liberated us from that, but there is always another god based evil out there to plague us, it seems. Nev

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

But every single believer I have ever met, rattles off quotes from the scriptures,who is to say that the scriptures are actually true ? Who wrote the bible ?

OK to answer your last question first - the Bible is a collection of books written by about 40 different people over a 1500 year period. Only a few of the writers actually met each other, yet it all meshes together. You can do a study on a single word or phrase and find agreement throughout. A large quantity is prophecy, much already fulfilled and some yet to be. Some prophecy is very detailed and specific and is easily verified by known historical events. One of these would be the impending destruction of the Phoenician city of Tyre written by Ezekiel (fascinating due to the details in the prophecy and the corresponding unique manner of it's demise 250 years later). Another would be Jesus prophecy of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem which occurred about 40 years later, an awful event. There is very detailed prophecy by Isaiah about the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus which was written 750 years before Jesus was born. No doubt the mockers will jump in shortly but not one of them can explain how these details got to be in the book and subsequently took place years later. It is easily provable that these things were written well before the events took place, indeed only recently the Dead Sea Scrolls have verified the accuracy of many segments of the Old Testament.

 

On your first point I find the scriptures to be true on at least three points 1) the detail and accuracy of prophecy as mentioned above and 2) I find the changes and events described in the book correspond with what I see happening in the world and amongst men 3) many things in my own life that align EXACTLY as the Bible describes.

 

So now I have a question - to those here that don't believe the Bible and generally mock Christianity - why do you quote some parts of the Bible in an attempt to portray Christians as deluded or God as unjust? If you hold that the book is all fiction why try and selectively throw up some portions? For example don't like the thugs of Jericho being destroyed and think God was mean for this? Fine but if you also hold that the Bible is a fairytale why even raise this matter as if it actually happened? Why do you selectively chose to believe some events took place and yet at the same time hold the book is completely unreliable? Could it be because of bigotry? Or do you fear deep down that there could be some truth to this book? Why selectively quote portions as fact if you also think it's all rubbish?

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Don - you may have misunderstood me. All of us in our lives have told lies, cheated, stolen something or lusted after someone etc. Sure I agree most people are nice - but at the same time each of us is also a liar, a cheat, a thief and an adulterer etc. That was my point - all men (even nice ones) are inherently sinners and incapable of redeeming ourselves of this sin condition. Can you understand that? Only Jesus Christ is sinless (even the Koran you've not yet read agrees on this point). My point was Humanism attempts to deny the existence of sin or evil. It's a delusion.

 

So this world has rejected the only sinless man and God is in effect letting us see how that all pans out for us. Letting reality slap us in the face if you like.

 

 

[octave]

Why selectively quote portions as fact if you also think it's all rubbish?

I do not quote portions of the Bible as fact but rather to illustrate that the Bible literalists like to cherry pick the parts that suit them and ignore the parts that don't so for instance I am supposing you would say Leviticus 18:22 is meant to be taken literally surely that means Leviticus 15:19 should also be taken literally or can we pick and choose.

 

 

[Bikky]

I've read the bible - fascinating stuff, but for a non-believer, it's all a bit difficult to swallow.

 

If you want a particular example of flexible truth, I refer you to the gospels (don't worry, I won't quote them).

 

Please define for me; what were Christ's last words as he succumbed to nature?

 

If you were to assign four reporters to cover an execution and they reported back with different versions of the victim's last words, how do you determine which report is true?

 

Last words are last words. An absolute. Only inaccurate or untruthful reporting can logically explain this.

 

If the gospels are so vague about a topic, how can I take the rest seriously?

 

... or am I failing to see the divine truth here?

 

 

[facthunter]

To accept it, ( the Bible) as the absolute word of God is a step too far as it is written and collated very selectively by HUMANS, who I don't trust. The "quotes" used by myself and others, (presumably), are used to illustrate the hypocrisy of many so called believers, who don't follow the teachings of their "Christ" at all.. If a lot of professing believers did base their actions on his proclaimed word we would be a lot better off , and the world would be an entirely different place whether he ever has been quoted accurately or not.. The bible does give students an insight into the beliefs, and culture of some people who existed not in prehistory but some 5,000 years ago, OTA in the OLD testament. If one looks there for a pattern of what is good you have a lot of variation to choose from and there is some pretty inexcusable behaviour by modern ethical standards to ponder on.. Nev

 

 

[rgmwa]

Don - you may have misunderstood me. All of us in our lives have told lies, cheated, stolen something or lusted after someone etc. Sure I agree most people are nice - but at the same time each of us is also a liar, a cheat, a thief and an adulterer etc. That was my point - all men (even nice ones) are inherently sinners and incapable of redeeming ourselves of this sin condition. Can you understand that? Only Jesus Christ is sinless (even the Koran you've not yet read agrees on this point). My point was Humanism attempts to deny the existence of sin or evil. It's a delusion.

So this world has rejected the only sinless man and God is in effect letting us see how that all pans out for us. Letting reality slap us in the face if you like.

Gnu, nobody is perfect and like all of us, I've done and said a few things in my 6 or so decades that I am not particularly proud of and would change if I could. However, I'm also not looking for redemption. I'm prepared to accept responsibility for myself and whatever I've done wrong, and I'm not at all concerned about facing whatever the future may bring, if anything. I certainly don't feel the need to rely on a Saviour or anybody else to rescue me or forgive me my sins. Perhaps that's where you and I differ. Just for the record, I had a sound Catholic upbringing - head altar boy, regular church attendance, confession. etc. I gave it away in my teens when I grew old enough to start thinking for myself and question some of the things I'd been told all my life.

 

For instance, what do you think the average 7 year old has done that requires going to confession for the first time to ask forgiveness? All I could think of was pinching a tomato from the garden at my mate's place one weekend. It wasn't much, but it was all I could come up with to take to the priest in the confessional on the day. Penalty - three Hail Mary's and an Our Father, and I was good for another week. Pretty pathetic really, given what some of the clergy were obviously up to at the time. On another occasion, when I was about 16 my mates were around one afternoon and the topic was religion. I was a Catholic, the father of one of my friends was the C of E minister, another one was also C of E and the last was a Lutheran. My younger sister who was about 13 came in and at one point said to the Lutheran "why don't you become a Catholic?". He simply said, "I don't want to". I can still see the incredulous expression on my sister's face. She simply couldn't understand how anyone would turn down an offer of eternal salvation so casually. She had been brought up to believe that the Catholics had it right and all the others were heathens and on their way to Hell unless they could be saved. Sounds a lot like what you're trying to tell us, doesn't it? Sorry, but I just can't buy it.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[DonRamsay]

. . . So now I have a question - to those here that don't believe the Bible and generally mock Christianity - why do you quote some parts of the Bible in an attempt to portray Christians as deluded or God as unjust? If you hold that the book is all fiction why try and selectively throw up some portions? For example don't like the thugs of Jericho being destroyed and think God was mean for this?

Regards the genocide at Jericho, who charged, tried and convicted the children and babies of "thuggish" or immoral behaviour and decided that their crimes merited slaughtering them? And why would any civilised person celebrate such an act of utter horror as ordained by their God? And we are supposed to love a God that sanctions such a massacre? Not my idea of a kind and just deity. Yet your God is supposed to be perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient well the one in the Bible seems to have the odd peccadillo or two to go with his super powers.

 

. . . Why selectively quote portions as fact if you also think it's all rubbish?

We are talking of a collection of stories that wasn't translated into English until 1526 having been translated though the one language (Hebrew) over millennia and then through ancient Greek and Latin to old English and modern English. But no mistakes were made either accidentally or on purpose? Are all Bibles true or all false?

 

Most of us would have difficulty understanding much of Shakespeare's writings without the footnotes even though it is barely 500 years old. Go back another five hundred years to the writings that are in the earliest English (like Beowulf - see below) and I promise you that they are unintelligible to a person who knows only modern English. The same thing happened with the evolution of Hebrew . . yes Hebrew did the unthinkable and evolved over time. There have been scholarly arguments over just about every passage in the Bible at one time or another. There are more versions of the Bible than I've had hot breakfasts. And yet it is the unequivocal literal word of God. And if it is not to be taken literally, who gets to decide what is literal, what is metaphorical and what is parable?

 

And who gets to say the Tyndale Bible is more or less correct than the King James? It is well know that Tyndale put a particular slant on the English translation to reduce the power of the clergy that he despised. In England, it meant torture and death to be found with a copy of this the first ever Bible in the English language. Why? Because some people didn't like the translation or interpretation.

 

For these reasons Bibles have little or no provenance. Yes Bibles, plural. And what about the New Testament? There were not only four there were up to 100 and what happened to the other 96? Destroyed because the early Church didn't like them.

 

[ATTACH]47483._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[Bikky]

Something I find very interesting is this concept of the "atheist doctrine" and "atheist faith".

 

Both concepts are an oxymoron.

 

I think I can presume that most atheists have at some time, pondered the possible existence of a god and rejected the idea.

 

I wonder how many Christians have taken the time to ponder the possible non-existence of a god.

 

Most atheists - contrary to Christian concepts - don't go preaching to believers that they should renounce their beliefs.

 

In my personal experience, telling someone you don't believe in a god isn't indoctrinating anyone but it's taken as a challenge by many Christians who will try to convert you on the spot!

 

How many times have you had your tranquil Sunday morning disturbed by humanists at the door insisting you accept their godless literature or that you donate to help them send atheist missionaries to godless countries to spiritually enlighten the inferiors?

 

The Christian bible insists that it is the believer's duty to spread the word and some do this with great tenacity.

 

This is all OK but if you say you don't believe, it's a doctrine!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I do not quote portions of the Bible as fact but rather to illustrate that the Bible literalists like to cherry pick the parts that suit them and ignore the parts that don't so for instance I am supposing you would say Leviticus 18:22 is meant to be taken literally surely that means Leviticus 15:19 should also be taken literally or can we pick and choose.

Yeah, I concur.

 

GG, same old, same old as above, you select the thugs of Jerico and yet no mention of 5 year old little Janey Smith and 6 year old Michael Jones etc etc ... stricken down with leukemia. Were they sinners GG? They can't even spell the word.

 

We are talking about God who - on our behalf - turned his face away whilst his own son suffered and died,

Yeah, nah, there just wasn't a God at all. If God appears it's a revelation, but not verifiable of course, faith based, and it's even a bigger revelation if he doesn't which is best because that is verifiable "Look everybody, God didn't show, it's a sign. it's a sign!".

 

But then the whole religion is based on God and Jesus not doing a thing isn't it, requires more faith that sets the true believers from the rest - as I mentioned earlier, even if there ever was a God or a Jesus, just like Elvis they have certainly left the building, so just based on that why would anyone devote themselves to it.

 

concepts are an oxymoron.

Speaking of that, "teaching faith" is an oxymoron.

 

 

[turboplanner]

In a nut shell - christians cannot prove god exists and atheists cannot prove he doesn't exist.Lets just for a minute say yep he does exist, then why in gods name ( pardon the pun) does he sit idle & let innocent people die with examples like accidents, murder ,wars and let the bad arsxes live ? Not a very good god IMO.

You would need to study some more detail, particularly Old Testament to grasp that God had difficulty with the bad ones from day one. I don't recall any promises that you could get sick and not die, get drunk and crash your car yet survive or even just be sitting in the sun and have an aircraft land on your head either.

 

There's a joke about a flood, where a man climbed on to his roof to escape the water. Some men in a boat cam past and offered to rescue him but he said "No thanks, God will protect me"

 

Another boat came past and made the same offer, but he just said "No thanks, God will protect me"

 

Some time later, with the water still rising, a helicopter came by and lowered a rescuer to the roof who offered to rescue him, but again he said "No thanks, God will protect me."

 

The water continued to rise and eventually covered the roof and he drowned.

 

He was greeted at the Pearly Gates by St Peter who asked "How are you today?"

 

"I'm pissed off!" the man said "I've prayed to God all my life, and just when I needed him he turned his back on me"

 

St Peter said "Well he sent two boats and a helicopter, what more do you want!"

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I don't recall any promises that you could get sick and not die, get drunk and crash your car yet survive or even just be sitting in the sun and have an aircraft land on your head either.

.. or win Lotto.

 

Correct, and many an Athiest's point.

 

All of us in our lives have told lies, cheated, stolen something or lusted after someone etc. Sure I agree most people are nice - but at the same time each of us is also a liar, a cheat, a thief and an adulterer etc. .

Not a problem, a minute before I die I will accept Jesus and all will be fine.

 

But seriously, this is yet another complaint of mine about God Bother'ers;

 

How dare you judge me, even by your own religion only God has that right. Being familiar with a book doesn't make you a God per say. Historical fact, millions have been murdered by your judgmental ilk in the name Gods.

 

Here's some light reading .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

 

And btw, "lusting" is a part of nature that ends in procreation, you wouldn't be here today without lust.

 

 

[turboplanner]

This could all be solved in a day or two if somebody could find the ark. I don't care which ark, either Noahs Ark or the Ark of covenant will do. Now is that too much to ask ?Oh no, hang on, I hope nobody used Noahs Ark for fire wood.

Noahs Ark

 

Anything made of wood is usually gone within about 80 years unless it is fossilised, under water, or well and truly buried, so we wouldn't expect to find much.

 

Research in the last 20 years has uncovered flood myths which are almost identical in hundreds of unconnected civilizations - too many for the flood stories not to be genuine.

 

However, to suggest one man could round up two of every species in the world and fit them all into a vehicle the size of the Ark doesn't match the volume of the animals, and you would need to match that enormous task with loading their diets for forty days and nights.

 

Most of the stories date to about 15,000 years ago, the end of the last ice age, and before that what is now referred to as the Mediterranean sea was a valley with a river flowing into the Atlantic.

 

Scientists in recent years have calculated that there isn't enough ice and humidity to raise the oceans high enough to cover all the land in the world, and there wasn't ever.

 

So it seems the ancient stories referred to that particular civilization's "world"

 

Ark of the Covenant

 

It sat in or under Solomons Temple for years, like an FX Holden gathering dust.

 

If Solomon's son Menelik stole it and took it to Egypt, it may well be sitting in a little church there now, guarded only by priests. Apparently the current church roof sprang a leak and they're building a new one for it.

 

Roslyn Chapel in Scotland is an exact replica of Solomon's Temple and the elaborate tunnel network under it took several years to complete in total secrecy before the above ground structure was started. Key Knights Templar requested to be buried under the Chapel (which was never used as a Chapel) so the could be close to something, so it could be there.

 

In researching following some comments by Marty regarding the Gothic Cathedrals built by the Knights Templar, I was blown away yesterday by what I found - they are MONSTERS. Chartres Cathedral for example has an internal height of 37 metres - 121 feet! It's spires are 113 metres high - 370 feet! Matching the 37 metre ceiling height is a well 37 metres deep, and the sympathetic measurements, where one measurement is a fraction or a multiple of another just go on and on right to the unique load carrying ogives which are based on the a pointed star, all unmistakably Egyptian. Yet at the time the population of Chartres was only about 3000. M.Luis Carpenter, a French Author suggests the Ark is buried under Chartres Cathedral.

 

Who knows, but it's likely to give you a hell of a kick if you find it and touch it.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head GG. Laurie