Atheist knowledge

[Gnarly Gnu]

For instance, what do you think the average 7 year old has done that requires going to confession for the first time to ask forgiveness? All I could think of was pinching a tomato from the garden at my mate's place one weekend. It wasn't much, but it was all I could come up with to take to the priest in the confessional on the day. Penalty - three Hail Mary's and an Our Father, and I was good for another week. Pretty pathetic really, given what some of the clergy were obviously up to at the time.

I agree with this part, it is pathetic. Just to be clear 'going to confession' and talking 'to a priest in the confessional' are specifically Roman Catholic doctrines and are not based on the Bible. The idea that you yourself can pay a penalty for your sins by doing some good work, penance, indulgence or puja is actually repugnant to biblical Christianity.... it is quite the opposite to what the bible teaches and ultimately lead to the reformation 497 years ago.

 

Again - many RC people are very nice and I personally feel much of what they believe and stand for is indeed good. Just pointing out that this particular doctrine is diametrically opposed to what the Bible clearly teaches. There are other doctrinal differences also.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Adding to what Gnarly said, you have to be careful to separate out the Roman Catholic church based information. What Saul did was appalling in engineering history to create a money making operation, and I'll post some information on it as soon as I can.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Most atheists - contrary to Christian concepts - don't go preaching to believers that they should renounce their beliefs.

Au contraire, today's fundamental atheists are in fact very preachy indeed.

 

An example, I think you would agree with this belief:

 

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

But seriously, this is yet another complaint of mine about God Bother'ers; How dare you judge me, even by your own religion only God has that right. Being familiar with a book doesn't make you a God per say. Here's some light reading .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition And btw, "lusting" is a part of nature that ends in procreation, you wouldn't be here today without lust.

1) I'm not judging you, my judgement is worthless anyway. God will judge you, in fact as you heard the gospel and rejected it he already has: John 3:18 "He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not has been already condemned, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

 

2) The inquisitions were RCC persecution of Christians and unbelievers. This is totally opposed to the teaching of scripture, it is for God to judge as above. It would be nice if the RCC one day acknowledged some of these shameful events of the past. Incidentally in Christianity a martyr is someone who is killed because of holding their faith; in Islam it's the exact opposite - a martyr is someone who kills others and in the process dies as part of their faith. It is the highest honour in Islam to kill unbelievers and indeed the Koran teaches it's the only way Moslems can be assured they will definitely get to paradise.

 

3) I was referring to lust outside of marriage - i.e. you are married but still lust after other women (or men).

 

 

[octave]

Au contraire, today's fundamental atheists are in fact very preachy indeed.

An example, I think you would agree with this belief:

 

GG compare this to the number of christian advertising also in terms of presenting a message this is very gentle "Probably no God" compared to this sort of thing.

 

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Yeah that's quite blunt sign. Problem is we are inherently sinners so in fact it is not possible for us to simply 'turn over a new leaf' and stop sinning from then on. We have a degree of freedom to choose but no-one has the free will sufficient to cease all sin. Besides there is the issue of the sins we have already committed. So personally I find the sign confronting (which I like) but also a little bit misleading, ceasing to sin is indeed a desirable and noble goal but the sign implies we can save ourselves from going to hell by doing so. In scripture salvation is only by faith in Christ and only by the power of the Holy Spirit given to those that believe can the desire to sin be controlled. This can get into quite deep theology which is beyond discussion here.

 

 

[octave]

In scripture salvation is only by faith in Christ and only by the power of the Holy Spirit given to those that believe can the desire to sin be controlled.

A genuine question for you GG. Adherence to a particular religion seems to be somewhat geographical, for example a child born in India will most likely have Hindu or Islamic parents they may not have ever been exposed to Christianity at all, this is not their fault but an accident of birth, none of us choose where we are born or who our parents are. My question is do Hindu children go to heaven or hell?

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Children that die go to heaven. Older / responsible people are to be judged according to their knowledge and actions eg some may not have heard the gospel. Anyone that genuinely desires to know God (i.e. not just idle curiosity) then God will and does make himself known to them - it is exactly what he desires to do. There are many amazing examples of this happening especially in the Middle East currently. One primitive culture had a belief for generations that a man was to bring a book to them from God, similar to the Torres Straight Islanders who celebrate "the coming of the light". Animistic cultures can be quite tough and violent.

 

Rather than dramatic signs and wonders to force us to believe God has chosen the principle of faith in him to redeem our sins (no-one can enter heaven with sin) so that no-one can boast they got to heaven through some great deeds or sacrifices they have themselves done.

 

In this age very few have not heard about God, rather in the west at least the most reject the thought. BTW the purpose of the signs and preaching is to warn folks. If you see someone walking towards a precipice you warn them if you care about them.

 

 

[horsefeathers]

NUP. You're trying to have it both ways, GG. Your bible says that the only way to heaven is thru Christ. No other way, sorry.

 

According to my now superseded Catholic upbringing, they will go to hell (or to limbo, if you're an RC who wears their heart on their sleeve - woozes). We actually got told that heaven was only for christians, and that christians other than RCs were in a separate section, behind a brick wall - sort of second class heaven for them.

 

This was actually one reason I couldn't continue believing my childhood indoctrination. That, and other obvious nonsense (or should I say non-compliance) such as the section in the bible about the sparrow (Matthew 10 something or other. I was/am unable to believe in a FATBOTG who was so uncaring towards huge human suffering, and decided that it was impossible to continue having any religious faith.

 

Another question GG.

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

 

Then he is not omnipotent.

 

Is he able, but not willing?

 

Then he is malevolent.

 

Is he both able and willing?

 

Then where does evil come from?

 

Is he neither able nor willing?

 

Then why call him God?

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

NUP. You're trying to have it both ways, GG. Your bible says that the only way to heaven is thru Christ. No other way, sorry.According to my now superseded Catholic upbringing, they will go to hell

Roman Catholic doctrine holds that everyone outside their RCC goes to hell. Again this is unique RCC doctrine and certainly not something I would claim in reverse to them. I may disagree with some of their doctrines (where they deviate from scripture) but I do know many RC's that believe in Jesus Christ and trust him for their salvation.

 

Your first claim appears to doom all the folks prior to the birth, death and resurrection of Christ to hell because they didn't specifically know about him, I'm not agreeing with that.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I think reincarnation is just as plausible as going to Heaven.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

[ATTACH]47484._xfImport[/ATTACH] Science meets religion

[Gnarly Gnu]

I think reincarnation is just as plausible as going to Heaven.

Sadly for many here that is true.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

GNu, when you say we go to heaven, what part of we goes and how does it get there? Time to get there? Location of heaven? What do you do in heaven, eternity is a long time?

 

 

[horsefeathers]

Your first claim appears to doom all the folks prior to the birth, death and resurrection of Christ to hell because they didn't specifically know about him, I'm not agreeing with that.

You cant agree or disagree - its part of the dogma you follow GG - you have no choice in what to believe.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Adding to what Gnarly said, you have to be careful to separate out the Roman Catholic church based information.

Yes, all the established denominations have their own particular practices and rituals, and this example of the confessional is peculiar to the RC's. Of course there's the joke about the recalcitrant who hadn't been to confession for many years, but finally thought he should put in an appearance to clear the account. He opened the door of the confessional, went in and knelt down in the gloom, but then noticed that the confessional walls were tastefully decorated, the floor was expensively carpeted, a small shelf contained a selection of fine wines and cigars, and there were some small but expensive paintings on the walls too. "Well, this is a surprise", he thought, "things have certainly changed since I was here last". Just then the door opened, and he turned around to find the priest glaring at him. "Get out of there, you idiot" said the priest angrily. "That's my side!"

 

rgmwa

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Another question GNu, why is heaven a one way trip?

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Roman Catholic doctrine holds that everyone outside their RCC goes to hell. Again this is unique RCC doctrine and certainly not something I would claim in reverse to them. I may disagree with some of their doctrines (where they deviate from scripture) but I do know many RC's that believe in Jesus Christ and trust him for their salvation.

Your first claim appears to doom all the folks prior to the birth, death and resurrection of Christ to hell because they didn't specifically know about him, I'm not agreeing with that.

Good one GG :) That's got to be the statement of the thread! Is the pope a catholic?

 

 

[octave]

since this is in the Aviation Laughter section.... but be warned - blasphemy and language

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

The atheist bus campaign was blocked here in Australia - http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/atheist-message-misses-local-bus/2009/01/08/1231004199169.html

 

 

[Marty_d]

Au contraire, today's fundamental atheists are in fact very preachy indeed.

An example, I think you would agree with this belief:

 

Yup. One ad that says "probably" and tells people to stop worrying and enjoy their life.

 

Compared to how many thousand signs outside churches that say the opposite.

 

Who are the militants here?

 

Which message is better for people?

 

The funny thing is, there's no point arguing about this stuff - the heathens (me included) are sitting there thinking "these guys cannot be serious, how can a thinking rational person possibly believe this crap".

 

On the other side, the god botherers are probably sitting there thinking something like "these poor ignorant souls are going to hell" (or something like that, I'm sure it's well-intentioned and earnest).

 

Luckily, it takes all types to make a world. I'll fight for anyone's right to have whatever beliefs they choose, or lack of any, as long as they don't use those beliefs to hurt anyone else. But because there are a variety of religions, surely even the zealots would see that any fair society should start from a basis of secularism and fair rule of law for all, and the freedom to believe whatever you like. By the same token anyone should be free not to believe anything if that's their choice, and not be preached to by any of the others.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

I've not seen other faiths advertise on the outside of public transport so seems reasonable. Be fun to park the bus at Lakemba. Another example of atheist preaching is seen in the tag line above: “Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, It will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines.”

 

Bertrand Russell (attributed).

 

Instead it seems it was Bertie that faded away.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I've not seen other faiths advertise on the outside of public transport so seems reasonable. Another example of atheist preaching is seen in the tag line above: “Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, It will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines.”Bertrand Russell (attributed).

 

Instead it seems it was Bertie that faded away.

Bertrand was wrong. There'll always be people who for some reason or other, need to believe in the supernatural.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...One primitive culture had a belief for generations that a man was to bring a book to them from God, similar to the Torres Straight Islanders who celebrate "the coming of the light". Animistic cultures can be quite tough and violent...

That's done it. I have followed this fascinating discussion with great interest (no topic more interesting than politics or religion) but GG you have gone too far.

 

Which culture was "primitive" ? The one that gave us industrialised slavery, the abominations of the Inquisition, systematic slaughter of other races and creeds? The civilisation that brought us Botox? Or the hundreds of highly developed cultures that greedy, murderous (or just plain dumb) white men have almost erased from this continent?

 

If you think that Indigenous cultures are "primitive" you are indeed uneducated and ignorant of the vastly complex languages, legal systems, marriage guidelines, etiquette protocols and land management rules that were mostly swept aside by ignorant white men. Those cultures survived many thousands of years of changing climate and centuries of contact with Asian traders- who respected the indigenous people they encountered.

 

Who translated that "belief" about a man bringing them a book? An impartial anthropologist or an arrogant missionary?

 

No culture has a monopoly on violence, and none is without what our current society would see as flaws. But. Even white fella history books are replete with stories of good deeds by gentle, trusting, even noble indigenous people, whose reward was subjugation or annihilation. So who is primitive?

 

 

[facthunter]

They believe in it because they need it. They are so important they cannot just die. There must be a bigger purpose. Through the ages mankind has found a god all over the place. Their god is the only acceptable one though, and they will kill people who think otherwise ,just because they think otherwise.. Let's say hypothetically there are 10,000 religions but most religious people think 9,999, are wrong. Atheists just add ONE.more. Nev