Atheist knowledge

[dazza 38]

Some people can read a book and accept everything as gospel in it and some people need more evidence. Simply really.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I do not quote portions of the Bible as fact but rather to illustrate that the Bible literalists like to cherry pick the parts that suit them and ignore the parts that don't so for instance I am supposing you would say Leviticus 18:22 is meant to be taken literally surely that means Leviticus 15:19 should also be taken literally or can we pick and choose.

There is a simple explanation for this:

 

Leviticus 15: 19 was part of the ceremonial law that was abolished in New Testament times. Once Jesus had come and gone, the ceremonies that pointed to him were no longer of any use.

 

Leviticus 18: 22 still applies because this relates to the ongoing precepts of the New Testament and therefore are still in force.

 

 

[octave]

Only God, a wonderful designer who created all the laws of physics and chemistry, the motions of galaxies (and the millions and millions of stars, planets and moons that make up these galaxies), as well as the tiniest parts that make up everything we can see, touch and hold with the building blocks (atoms) which themselves are composed of a nucleus and electron(s) orbiting around them. It takes a huge leap of faith that all this came (a) without a designer; and (b) from nothing. For instance, if the big bang caused the whole universe to come into being from a piece of matter the size of a basketball, where did this matter come from? Ultimately, for me, it is easier to believe in God making all this "by the word of his power", all from nothing ....rather than that everything came from nothing without any designer.

 

80knts as an atheist I have absolutely no problem with what you said, it is not necessarily at odds with the evidence however this is where I would respectfully differ from you in that I know there are interesting hypotheses on this (see Lawrence Krauss' book A Universe from nothing) but let me toss those ideas aside for the sake of this discussion. I can say I don't know how the Universe started but for me at least to explain it by saying there must have been a creator just shifts the question up one level, it is quite fair to ask how the creator was created. We could say that the creator has always existed but then why not say the universe has always existed or at least the potential for the universe to exist. To explain one unknown by superimposing another unknown on top of it does not satisfy my curiosity. I don't mind that we don't know how the universe came into existence, it is something we may discover or it may be unknowable.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Why are we here ? Why do we inhabit the earth? Why do we exist? Why is there a universe ?

 

Why don't I start another thread ?

 

 

[AVOCET]

No, none of that; I suggest the man is mentally disturbed, and in great pain. The condition is becoming recognised - see, for example, http://new.exchristian.net/2011/06/religious-trauma-syndrome-its-time-to.html . The fact that he started this thread, and is so stubbornly sticking to irrational arguments shows that; and we aren't helping him. One of my nieces has a similar problem. She's starting to write aggressive internet articles, too.

He may perhaps need to get medical advice re some tranquilizing prescription to ease the stress whilst he's dealing with this - see http://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/post-traumatic-stress-disorder.htm#getting_help

 

I'm NOT trying to be sarcastic or funny about this; it's no laughing matter.

what ? You also a phyc. Now .?

 

Ive also read that folk that go about building new types of aircraft or whatever have a similar phycosis !

 

Go figure that folks .

 

After reding about these " make , acceptance " by peers crap , i can see how gulable minds with no ability can come to these conclusions .

 

Mike

 

always in pain ,

 

( ask any one who knows me )

 

 

[rgmwa]

Ultimately, for me, it is easier to believe in God making all this "by the word of his power", all from nothing ....rather than that everything came from nothing without any designer.

That's the bottom line really isn't it? If you can make the required leap of faith, it neatly solves the problem (at least superficially). If you can't, you have to live with the fact that you don't have the answer, and that even if you did, you may not like it.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[eightyknots]

That's an argument that denies Agnosticism.And of course Religious Agnostics, who would otherwise be Atheists, arises from children given no choice in having it rammed down their throats from an early age and leaving some doubt or fear not to believe in something.

 

Of course it's different in China where they don't have it rammed down their throats from childhood but surprise, surprise, they believe Dragons once existed and that ghosts do exist (serious) and other cultural beliefs because that's what they are exposed to as children.

I should also have added that Marco Polo (a medieval 'tourist' or 'explorer' from Venice who visited China a little over 700 years ago, in the 1200s) came back and told many things to a person who wrote down his adventures and observations. This is what was recorded:

 

Leaving the city of Yachi, and traveling ten days into a westerly direction, you reach the Province of Carajan* which is also the name of its chief city…Here are seen huge serpents, ten paces in length, and ten spans in the girt of the body. At the fore-part, near the head, they have two short legs, having three claws like those of a tiger, with eyes larger than a fourpenny loaf ** and very glaring. The jaws are wide enough to swallow a man, the teeth are large and sharp, and their whole appearance is so formidable, that neither man, nor any kind of animal, can approach them without terror. Others are met with of a smaller size, being eight, six, or five paces long; and the following method is used for taking them. In the day-time, by reason of the great heat, they lurk in caverns, from whence, at night, they issue to seek their food, and whatever beast they meet with and can lay hold of, whether tiger, wolf, or any other, they devour; after which they drag themselves towards some lake, spring of water, or river, in order to drink. By their motion in this way along the shore, and their vast weight, they make a deep impression, as if a heavy beam had been drawn along the sands.

 

 

 

Those whose employment it is to hunt them observe the track by which they are most frequently accustomed to go, and fix into the ground several pieces of wood, armed with sharp iron spikes, which they cover with the sand in such a manner as not to be perceptible. When therefore the animals make their way towards the places they usually haunt, they are wounded by these instruments, and speedily killed. The crows, as soon as they perceive them to be dead, set up their scream; and this serves as a signal to the hunters, who advance to the spot, and proceed to separate the skin from the flesh, taking care immediately to secure the gall, which is most highly esteemed in medicine. In cases of the bite of a mad dog, a pennyweight of it, dissolved in wine, is administered. It is also useful in accelerating parturition, when the labour pains of women have come on. A small quantity of it being applied to carbuncles, pustules, or other eruptions on the body, they are presently dispersed; and it is efficacious in many other complaints. The flesh also of the animal is sold at a dear rate, being thought to have a higher flavour than other kinds of meat, and by all persons it is esteemed a delicacy.***

 

Source: "The Travels of Marco Polo, volume 2, http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12410/pg12410.html

 

* This is now modern Yunnan on the edge of Burma.

 

** or actually 'pane da quattro denari'

 

*** Dinosaur dinners must have been really tasty, and the medicines pretty good. No wonder dragons were hunted to distinction after Marco Polo's visit.

 

It is very likely that the dragon that Marco Polo saw and described was a dragon (dinosaur) of some kind, now extinct of course. This is one of the twelve animals in the Chinese calendar. The next Year of the Dragon is 2024.

 

 

[Marty_d]

They believe that dragons (now usually known as dinosaurs) existed because many Chinese have seen them in the past. Just because they have been hunted to extinction doesn't mean that they didn't once exist in the past. The Chinese chose twelve animals, then visible for all to see, to construct their calendar. The dragon (dinosaur) has now become extinct but remains in the calendar. If the tiger* became extinct in, say, 2035 the tiger would remain in the calendar (without being removed) just like the dragon has stayed in there. There is plenty of proof that the dragon existed in all forms of art. No photographic evidence exists because the dragon (dinosaur) became extinct before cameras were invented in the 1800s.

* The tiger and dragon are in the Chinese calendar. Here is a full list of the twelve animals included in the calendar:

 

Rat.

 

Ox.

 

Tiger.

 

Rabbit.

 

Dragon.

 

Snake.

 

Horse.

 

Sheep.

 

Monkey.

 

Rooster.

 

Dog.

 

Pig.

 

[ATTACH=full]32720[/ATTACH]

 

This 1100 year old artwork dating from the Liao Dynasty (source: s8int.com) shows two dragons that represent ceratopsian dinosaurs

For those that didn't pay any attention in science class... homo sapiens did NOT coexist with dinosaurs. We are separated by millions of years. Can I just point out that the dragon on that jug you're comparing with the line drawing of the pterosaur seems to have 4 legs as well as wings. I think you'll find that all the flying reptiles had hind legs and the forelimbs were wings, usually an extended hand forming the framework in much the same way as bats.

 

Mythical creatures exist in all cultures and, just like any other myth, have a sliding scale of basis in truth from 0% (flying fire-breathing dragons, centaurs, dryads, fauns, demons, angels, mermaids etc) to 100% (platypus). Just because someone can dream up a creature (or mistake an actual creature for it - manatee for mermaid, giant squid for sea monster, perhaps rhino for unicorn as suggested above), doesn't mean we should assume that this creature ever existed.

 

Along the same lines, myths spring up throughout history of people with supernatural powers (does anyone really believe Methuselah lived for 900+ years?) - Samson, Moses, Jesus, Vlad the Impaler (Dracula), Superman, etc. Some of them may have even been real historical figures (or a conglomeration of figures) but if you really believe they killed thousands of people with the jawbone of an ass, fed thousands with a couple of fish and some loaves of bread, turn into a bat and suck your blood, or leap tall buildings with a single bound... well, as someone else already offered in this thread, I have a lovely bridge for sale.

 

By the way, that website you got the dragon pictures from (s8int.com) looks like the biggest pile of unresearched, unreliable, faux-scientific crap it has ever been my misfortune to see.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

For those that didn't pay any attention in science class...

Man, that could be my problem too. Being curious and not unthinkingly accepting everything as taught are not desirable traits by the state education system. Perhaps I'll back off on Dr Daffyd's drugs and go for re-education.

 

The flesh also of the animal is sold at a dear rate, being thought to have a higher flavour than other kinds of meat, and by all persons it is esteemed a delicacy...

Fabulous, make one feel hungry for a juicy dino steak!

 

 

[Marty_d]

Being curious and not unthinkingly accepting everything as taught

Er... hold on, don't you unthinkingly accept everything the bible tells you?

 

Fabulous, make one feel hungry for a juicy dino steak!

Well, given they were mostly similar to birds in genetic makeup, they probably tasted like emu.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Don't much like Emu, platypus is delicious though.

 

 

[Teckair]

By the way, that website you got the dragon pictures from (s8int.com) looks like the biggest pile of unresearched, unreliable, faux-scientific crap it has ever been my misfortune to see.

Try the solar panel thread.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Got to enjoy the irony of an arch science denier (climate, evolution, Big Bang, carbon dating, age of the universe) attempting to use science to deny science. Next he'll be quoting Dawkins to prove JC could turn water into wine. Somebody shoot me!

 

 

[DonRamsay]

80KIAS, Marco Polo is unknown in China and it is highly unlikely he ever got there. There is a bridge in Bejing called after him but that's just to suck in the tourists. His story was written as a work of fiction. Very entertaining story written in Gaol by a conman. more top class faith based research.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Darn, sounds like Lonely Planet.

 

 

[Yenn]

I BELIEVE!!

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Great! In God, dinosaurs, dragons, Darwin or Don? Indeed do you feel there is a difference?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Of course Adam and Eve were the first people who failed to read the full Apple instruction manual.

 

 

[M61A1]

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[turboplanner]

I hope you paid Ian for your Ad M

 

 

[dazza 38]

This thread has been entertaining but being part aboriginal it is always going to be nothing more than entertaining. Your prophet was alive what 2000 years ago ? Lol My relatives have been here in Australia for over 40000 years. You guys don't know jack $hit when it comes to religion. Or how the human race has evolved to where we are now .

 

 

[Marty_d]

This thread has been entertaining but being part aboriginal it is always going to be nothing more than entertaining. Your prophet was alive what 2000 years ago ? Lol My relatives have been here in Australia for over 40000 years. You guys don't know jack $hit when it comes to religion. Or how the human race has evolved to where we are now .

While I respect your point, and your heritage, being a picky bugger I'd just like to point out that everyone's relatives have been somewhere on Earth about 3.8 billion years. Admittedly you may not see the family resemblance with a single-celled prokaryotic organism (although I know blokes who fit the bill), but follow the family tree back far enough...

 

 

[eightyknots]

80KIAS, Marco Polo is unknown in China and it is highly unlikely he ever got there. There is a bridge in Bejing called after him but that's just to suck in the tourists. His story was written as a work of fiction. Very entertaining story written in Gaol by a conman. more top class faith based research.

Hi Don,

 

There is pretty solid evidence the Marco Polo really was in China and saw those things which were recorded for him by his scribe. The only way these things could have been written is if someone was actually there for some time and experienced those things for themselves. Archaeological evidence also supports Marco Polo's account in many areas. See http://newobserveronline.com/marco-polo-did-go-to-china-new-research-shows-and-the-history-of-paper/ for a summary. Another source is: http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=119306&CultureCode=en

 

 

[bexrbetter]

There is pretty solid evidence the Marco Polo really was in China http://newobserveronline.com/marco-polo-did-go-to-china-new-research-shows-and-the-history-of-paper/

Not important to me either way but a lot of his info could easily have been obtained along the Silk Road. Money exchange rates and types of currency used in what areas, penalties to criminals, goods to be traded in and in which areas are all the sort of info travelers talk to other travelers about to this day.

 

Many Scholars here believe that the myths of Dragons came from descriptions given to opposing armies with stuff like 'fire breathing' being archers at the head with flaming arrows and the snake like body being the army marching, many kms long.

 

 

[turboplanner]

To make it easier to understand the sequence of some of the things we have been discussing, here's a timeline of some events.

 

Atheists will be happy to know that science creeps in here with the carbon dating of the so-called "Shroud of Turin", so you can cross that one off your list.

 

 

 

BC

 

28,000 First evidence of religious practice

 

12,000 Grindstones used for flour production

 

9,000 Animal husbandry developed in Mesopotamia

 

5,500 Irrigation systems used in Sumer

 

3,400 First walled cities in Egypt

 

3,250 Earliest known writing in Sumer

 

3,200 Secret Egyptian king-making ceremony

 

3,000 First Egyptian hieroglyphics

 

1500-1450 Most Probable period for the Exodus under Moses

 

972 Solomon builds temple to Yahweh on Temple Mount in Jerusalem

 

300 – 100 AD Dead Sea scrolls written, discovered at Qumran Caves between 1946 and 1956 and are still being translated. About 40% relate to the Hebrew Bible.

 

187 Earliest date for Qumran Community

 

6 Probable date of birth of Jesus

 

AD

 

0 – 400 Gnostic Gospels written (discovered Nag Hamadi, Egypt 1947)

 

27 Jesus spend three years at Qumran

 

31 Jesus leaves Qumran, held to be king of Jews

 

32 John the Baptist beheaded; Jesus assumes priestly as well as kingly messiahships

 

33 Crucifixion of Jesus

 

37 Mandaeans driven out of Mesopotamia by Saul

 

60 Saul becomes Paul and invents Christianity

 

63 Probable date of confrontation between James and Paul

 

64 Killing of James the Just at the Temple

 

70 Destruction of Qumran, Jerusalem and Herod’s Temple by the Romans

 

325 Council of Nicaea established by Emperor Constantine

 

1008 Oldest surviving text of the Hebrew Bible

 

June 14, 1099 Jerusalem was captured by the Crusaders

 

1118 Order of Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon founded

 

1120 Templars find hidden scrolls

 

1306 The arrest of all Jews in France

 

1292 Jacques de Maloy elected last Grand Master of the Templars

 

Fri Oct 13, 1307 Knights Templar were attacked by King Phillip of France, some escaped to Scotland, Fleet escaped never seen again, signs they made it to America, others escaped and founded Switzerland

 

1307 Jacques de Maloy crucified and Shroud of Turin created

 

1308 Arrival of Templar fleet in America

 

1440-1490 Building of the Chapel of Roslyn near Edinburgh

 

1534 English split with Roman Catholic Church

 

1604-1611 King James Bible translation

 

1799 Rosetta stone found, enabling Egyptian hieroglyphics to be read

 

1945 Discovery of Nag Hammadi cache of Gnostic gospels

 

1947 Discovery of Dead Sea scrolls at Qumran near Jerusalem

 

1951 Excavation of Qumran starts

 

1955 The copper scroll opened and deciphered as an inventory of hidden treasures

 

1988 Carbon dating of Turin Shroud establishes its earliest possible origin to be 1260

 

1991 First public access to full collection of the Dead Sea scrolls

 

Black: Source “The Hiram Key” Red: Other sources