Atheist knowledge

[turboplanner]

Regarding the place that religious faith has in a countries government, I admired the USA founding fathers for writing their constitution with the explicit intention of keeping religion separated from government. Sounds like common sense to me. Pity that they later lost their way, and now pander to a religion. It will undoubtedly eventuate in causing division and conflict

You're kidding me - you weren't aware of this?

 

Before becoming a Freemason, a man is asked “Do you believe in God?” If he doesn’t it doesn’t proceed.

 

Thomas Jefferson, who drafted the Declaration of Independence was a Freemason

 

Freemasons who signed the United States Constitution

 

Gunning Bedford Jr Delaware First Grand Master of Delaware

 

John Blair Virginia First Grand Master of Virginia

 

David Brearly New Jersey First Grand Master of New Jersey

 

Jacob Broom Delaware Officer in his Lodge

 

Daniel Carroll Maryland Mason, participated in the Masonic cornerstone laying of the US Capitol with George Washington

 

Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Member Temple Lodge No1, Elizabethtown

 

John Dickinson Delaware Lodge member, Dover

 

Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Grand Master of Pennsylvania

 

Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Member, St Johns Lodge No1, Portsmouth

 

Rufus King Massachusetts Member, St Johns Lodge, Newburyport

 

James McHenry Maryland Member, Spiritual Lodge No 23

 

William Paterson New Jersey Member, Trenton Lodge No 5

 

George Washington Virginia Alexandria Lodge No 22

 

39 people signed the Constitution, 33% were Freemasons

 

There is a datum point in a park in Washington DC from which a series of type interrelated lines connect most of the important buildings to form a Pentastar, matching traditions of the Star family, the Egyptians, and the VHC (very high civilization) that taught them virtually overnight, possibly known as the “Watchers”.

 

The early Sumerian texts talk of tall, god-like people who came to live among them whom they called the “Watchers”.

 

They were taught new skills, then the Watchers would leave again.

 

Ancient Jewish documents also make reference to them, and the dead sea scrolls also confirm an incident between a Watcher and a member of the community.

 

In the Bible, the Book of Enoch makes reference to them.

 

In the US, nothing much has been left to chance or heathens.

 

As we go back through ancient civilizations there are many who have a single God reference, even though they are quite unrelated geographically. There also at least three common manifestations, a spirit which enters and leaves the human body, an afterlife, and Angels.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

As we go back through ancient civilizations there are many who have a single God reference, even though they are quite unrelated geographically.

If you are attempting to prove that there is one common God throughout history, that is nonsense, there are many thousands of Gods, human type, animal type and material objects.

 

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/names/gods.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

 

There also at least three common manifestations, a spirit which enters and leaves the human body, an afterlife, and Angels.

And in modern times with equipment to record factual events ...... nothing.

 

In fact, based on sightings and event recordings, UFOs are to be prayed to.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Before becoming a Freemason, a man is asked “Do you believe in God?” If he doesn’t it doesn’t proceed.

 

.

Not strictly correct, he must believe in a supreme being, it could be Satan.......

 

 

[turboplanner]

Not strictly correct, he must believe in a supreme being, it could be Satan.......

I'm happy to be corrected with more precise wording, but it can't be Satan or anyone else, there is only one architect of the universe and this information points out who it is.

 

[ATTACH]47487._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[turboplanner]

If you are attempting to prove that there is one common God throughout history, that is nonsense, there are many thousands of Gods, human type, animal type and material objects.http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/names/gods.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

Maybe you misunderstood what I said:

 

"As we go back through ancient civilizations there are many who have a single God reference, even though they are quite unrelated geographically."

 

The many civilizations with a SINGLE God is the starting point for research, then winding back up the trees to try to find a root language

 

Many civilizations had weird customs or multiple gods - the early Romans are a good example.

 

And in modern times with equipment to record factual events ...... nothing.

I'm referring more to "Soul" spirits rather than the subject of "Ghost" spirits

 

 

[facthunter]

If to be a freemason, you have to believe in a supreme being. that's discriminating against a lot of people. UNfreemason ? better title? Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's certainly excluding Atheists.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I'm happy to be corrected with more precise wording, but it can't be Satan or anyone else, there is only one architect of the universe and this information points out who it is.

Crickey Turbs, you'd better be careful about showing support for that Freemason crew. A born-again friend of ours very solemnly informed us that, because my dad was a Mason, three generations of his descendants would be cursed.

 

 

[rgmwa]

The early Sumerian texts talk of tall, god-like people who came to live among them whom they called the “Watchers”. They were taught new skills, then the Watchers would leave again.

Any mention of the Watchers in the Bible? How would they fit into the picture?

 

rgmwa

 

 

[turboplanner]

Any mention of the Watchers in the Bible? How would they fit into the picture?rgmwa

Yes, in the book of Enoch

 

I'm not sure how they fit in but they may be linked to the Viracochas of South America who taught and did good things - a little towards the "Angel" tag

 

 

[skeptic36]

It's certainly excluding Atheists.

No it doesn't, only the ones that admit to it. The bloke I used to work for, I got to know quite well as you do in a two person workshop. You wouldn't find a better unbeliever than him, and yet he was invited to join and went on to become Worshipful Master of his lodge.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you tell lies, GOD will get you. HE knows what you are thinking. Be very afraid. Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

Actually Marty,. . . . . in the early part of WW2, BF109 pilots became quickly adept at "Hit and Run" tactics against formations of Spitfires, meaning that they could fire off some cannon shells then dive almost vertically to escape the Spitfires which would then suffer from loss of engine power from carburation problems due to the negative G force when they tried to give chase, the 109 was fuel injected, so the Spit was at a distinct disadvantage in that regard on it's early marques.

Sorry for the non - religious thread drift, this damn flying stuff can be so distracting don't you think . . . ?

That's fine Phil, a welcome distraction. I admit my knowledge of the relative performances of Spits vs BF109's is not as complete as it should be, and I might be slightly biased towards the Spit.

 

If the Spit suffered from carby problems in negative G, wouldn't they commence their dive by rolling inverted and pulling hard back?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Crickey Turbs, you'd better be careful about showing support for that Freemason crew. A born-again friend of ours very solemnly informed us that, because my dad was a Mason, three generations of his descendants would be cursed.

That's understandable it was Christians who murdered the Templars, Freemasonry on current knowledge was started by Templar William StClair and Freemasonry doesn't get tangle up the the downstream effect of Saul's porkies, so they would want to shut Freemasons down.

 

It's interesting that while, as quite a few people have mentioned on this forum, Christians have been involved in wars and killings, the Masons have gone quietly about their business doing good things year after year for around seven centuries, and leave the world a better place for their being here.

 

 

[turboplanner]

No it doesn't, only the ones that admit to it. The bloke I used to work for, I got to know quite well as you do in a two person workshop. You wouldn't find a better unbeliever than him, and yet he was invited to join and went on to become Worshipful Master of his lodge.

As we know he had to have lied to get in. I don't know what the procedure is in that case, but I suspect he would be booted out.

 

 

[dazza 38]

We have a active freemason on here, but I wont mention his name. Hopefully he will read this and shed some more light on the freemasons.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

. . . the Masons have gone quietly about their business doing good things year after year for around seven centuries . . .

If you rate mutual back scratching "good things" or working very hard against papists and dominating the British and Australian Civil Services in their war against Catholics.

 

Self-serving Masons about whom we can know very little first hand because of the covert nature of their activities do not inspire me as the "good guys". Like I said we know very little about what they do with goats behind closed doors so I could be wrong, they could be saints on Earth. Or not.

 

Secrecy with occasional flashing to the public does not constitute anything that should be admired in a free and open society.

 

Simple thing is that if they are only up to good works why do they need to hide behind a burqa of secrecy?

 

. . . and leave the world a better place for their being here.

Well, a better place if you are a stone cutter perhaps. Is Masonry a society that promotes equality of opportunity or one that works very hard to ensure that less capable Masons get most favoured treatment in business and the public service than non-Masons?

 

 

[AVOCET]

Nudge , nudge , wink, wink .

 

Say no more

 

 

[bexrbetter]

We have a active freemason on here, but I wont mention his name. Hopefully he will read this and shed some more light on the freemasons.

Who are the Masons and what crime did they commit?

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I don't know, I leave you lot alone for a day or two and somebody turns on the poor old stone cutters in their dotage. Not to mention all the usual stuff like atheism being a belief, having faith in Darwinism and science-deniers mis-quoting science to prove science is wrong about science. I tried to go back through it all and help some understand the flaws in their argument but what is the point? You can't argue logically with people who deny logic, who do not need evidence and don't want to look for evidence and who don't want to look at the evidence that exists. They just swallow everything they're told by other creationists and refuse to recognise that the faux-science of the creationists is universally derided.

 

I really wonder why we are trying to argue, we'd be better off just bickering. At least we wouldn't have to think so hard or counter oxymoronic (and plain moronic) assertions for which there is no evidence or logical support.

 

At least Turbo planner has kept providing us with a genuinely interesting titbits of ancient history.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Political

 

• That the British judiciary is heavily infiltrated with Masons, who give fellow Masons "the benefit of the doubt" in court, subverting the legal system.[13][14]
   
  
• That Freemasonry overlaps with, or is controlled by, the Illuminati, especially in the higher degrees; Illuminati Freemasons secretly control many major aspects of society and government and are working to establish the New World Order.[15][16][17][18][19][20] Some conspiracy theories involving the Freemasons and the Illuminati also include the Knights Templar and Jews as part of the supposed plan for universal control of society. This type of conspiracy theory was described as early as 1792 by multiple authors, beginning in France and Scotland.[1]
   
  
• That Freemasonry is a Jewish front for world domination, or is at least controlled by Jews for this goal. An example of this is the notorious (and fraudulent) The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Adolf Hitler believed that Freemasonry was a tool of Jewish influence,[21] and outlawed Freemasonry and persecuted Freemasons partially for this reason.[22] The covenant of the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas claims that Freemasonry is a "secret society" founded as part of a Zionist plot to control the world.[23]
   
  
• That Freemasons are behind income taxes in the US. One convicted tax protester has charged that law enforcement officials who surrounded his property in a standoff over his refusal to surrender after his conviction were part of a "Zionist, Illuminati, Free Mason movement".[24] The New Hampshire Union Leader also reported that "the Browns believe the IRS and the federal income tax are part of a deliberate plot perpetrated by Freemasons to control the American people and eventually the world."[25]
   
  
• That Freemasons have strong links with more selective secret and semi-secret societies such as the Bohemian Grove meeting,[26][27] the Skull and Bones society,[20] and Rhodes Scholars.[28]
   
  
• That far-right groups such as the Ku Klux Klan[29] and the Orange Order[30] are intimately tied to Freemasonry.
   
  

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Anyone who believes in the illuminati had better also believe in God because only She is the more powerful.

 

Personally, I think the Illuminati is the greatest load of bollocks ever dreamed up by a paranoid schizophrenic.

 

On a totally different matter, thanks Turbo for posting the link to Noel Pearson as I had missed the original broadcast. This speech has been rated by many as the best speech ever made in Australia. Even though every year I put my vote in for Noel Pearson to be awarded "Australian of the Year" I might not go that far. Those same people rated that ridiculous bit of calumny delivered by Julia Whatsername to be one of the best as well - so what would they know?

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Here is the question for those who 'believe' in Darwinism/evolution:

Try "accept the theory of" rather than "believe" and intelligent people will not be lost as soon as you say "believe". At least you put it in inverted commas giving some recognition that Evolution is a Scientific Theory not a doctrinal belief system.

 

Where is the evidence? Not, “Where is the interpretation?” I know textbooks are full of evidence of change, but fail to mention the genetic direction of that change (genetic change is always for the worse; there is always a loss of genetic information in change). Please put aside religious implications and answer the question about the evidence:1. Where is verified evidence that the mind boggling complexity of life has come from non-life, despite chemical laws of equilibrium going the wrong direction?

 

2. Where is verified evidence that natural selection processes increase genetic complexity over time leading to new physiological features?

All of the above is, I'm sorry to say, creationist nonsense and non-science. This forum is not the place for a total exposition of the life work of one of the world's all-time top 5 scientists (imho). If you genuinely want to understand the scientific theory of Evolution as it stands in the 21st Century, get yourself off to a University and spend a year or two in deep study with genuine scientists.

 

The unarguable FACT is that the scientific theory of Evolution is the overwhelmingly accepted scientific theory of what's been happening to life forms since the first life form appeared on this planet.

 

If creationists weren't so bound up in the literal word of Genesis then they could simply say that God created the Singularity and kicked off the big bang according to Her laws that we now call science. But instead, died in the wool creationists (I can't give them the title "scientist") stick with a parable that bronze-age nomadic goatherders could comprehend and make themselves the laughing stock they are.

 

Please respect those who do not believe that a frog does not turn into a prince, even if you give it a few million years.

I respect, for their view, everyone that believes frogs don't evolve into princes.

 

We could respect creationists if you didn't make deliberately inane statements like that for effect. No credible scientist ever said that frogs evolve into princes.

 

Please respect those who do not believe in someone else’s “god” (the god of evolution) who uses death, suffering and waste to make something good.

Again, this statement offers nothing but disrespect for people who accept the scientific theory of evolution by equating it with a "belief" in a theism.

 

Please respect those who love true science, which requires operational evidence, not conjecture.

All good science starts as conjecture, goes through the stage of being an hypothesis and can evolve into a scientific theory if there is credible tested evidence and logic supporting it.

 

A belief in Creation meets none of these requirements. Evolution meets all of them.

 

Please respect those who love the God of the Bible, which unashamedly requires faith.One does not contradict the other: each keeps to its own sphere.

Happy to do that as long as that does not give those who love that awful, terrifying deity the right to end my life for blasphemy. The last person in the UK put to death for Blasphemy was just about 300 years ago. The last person put to death for Blasphemy by believers in your God would be sometime today.

 

How can I respect that God?

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

You might argue the semantics of what defines a University per say, but higher education was around in China long before any bible was written and very well documented - as you would expect from educated people.

Until very recent times the Chinese government was systematically executing people with education. After decades of being a basket case they finally realised Communism is an utter failure and they would never get close to the performance of the west unless they at least became educated so now they've swung the opposite way on this point, which is good. Incidentally (as I'm sure you'd love to know) some folks in the Bible 2000 years ago tried communism and it was a failure (as always) and they nearly starved; by contrast one of Jesus parables in the new testament supports a free market economy, this was not a new idea then but we know from historical evidence it is the one mechanism that has boosted the economic well-being - and by extension health and lifespan - of mankind more than any other. Of course what we have in Australia is no longer free as you would know, it is semi-socialist or crapitalist as some say which is why so many folks are now struggling.

 

They are the most wonderful, kindest, social people you could ever hope to know in your life, but in business, by Western standards anyway, they are the lowest form of cheating, deceitful, lying, thieving arrsholes you could ever hope to not come across.

I have heard this from others also, in the west to the dismay of Atheists and leftists we still have the framework of our Christian heritage - this doesn't mean theft and cheating doesn't happen here of course but it does mean that this is not the norm in business and is not seen as expected or accepted behavior like it is in some countries without a significant Christian base behind their culture.

 

{after confusing Christians God with Moslems Allah} How can I respect that God?

It's not a problem for God that you don't believe in him, He doesn't believe in Atheists.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If you rate mutual back scratching "good things" or working very hard against papists and dominating the British and Australian Civil Services in their war against Catholics.

Self-serving Masons about whom we can know very little first hand because of the covert nature of their activities do not inspire me as the "good guys". Like I said we know very little about what they do with goats behind closed doors so I could be wrong, they could be saints on Earth. Or not.

 

Secrecy with occasional flashing to the public does not constitute anything that should be admired in a free and open society.

 

Simple thing is that if they are only up to good works why do they need to hide behind a burqa of secrecy?

 

Well, a better place if you are a stone cutter perhaps. Is Masonry a society that promotes equality of opportunity or one that works very hard to ensure that less capable Masons get most favoured treatment in business and the public service than non-Masons?

Most of what you've said here is baseless, and based on the human inability to restrain themselves from looking over a fence designed for privacy.

 

I can be pretty certain they aren't screwing goats though, because I read the story of Baphomet, and from memory it was pretty much irrelevent to serious history.

 

What I would recommend you do is buy the book: http://www.amazon.com/Hiram-Key-Pharaohs-Freemasons-Discovery/dp/1931412758/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415430987&sr=1-1&keywords=the+hiram+key

 

For a few dollars it's a very informative read, packed with the facts uncovered by the researchers. I know you have the intelligence to handle the complexity of the story, and from what you are saying here, it will give you an entirely different outlook on history.

 

If Knight and Lomas have their research correct, the William StClair was a brilliant strategist who was able to operate under the radar of the Roman Catholics who were hell bent on killing anyone they felt had different information to Saul's invention of Christianity. He knew the elaborate underground structure would take a long time to complete, and he knew secrets often leaked out, so he paid his key people forty pounds a year and that included what we today would refer as white collar workers and ensured they all lived their lives out in luxury in return for total silence on the project. That this silence has continued for hundreds of years is a credit to a very clever man.

 

Knight and Lomas both went through the Masonic process and have very carefully tried to ensure they kept to their vows as Masons. While I've been quoting from the book, I've only been quoting to suit the religious matter relevant to this thread. That means there are hundreds of pages explaining freemasonry and providing explanations of its origins that many Masons would be intrigued by, and would be learning for the first time, although not all of them.

 

In 2012, travelling between Townsville and Cairns, we pulled in to a roadside stop and found Freemasons were supplying free coffee and biscuits. Having just read this book and being a smartarxx, I walked straight up and said to one of the guys "Why are the stone steps down to the crypt under Roslyn Chapel so worn?"

 

I was expecting a blank look and a stammer, but BOOM, he told me exactly why, how it was not a Chapel and why, and kept my mouth wide open and drooling for probably an hour - brilliant knowledge!