turboplanner Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 This speech has been rated by many as the best speech ever made in Australia. I would go along with that; he got through a message that none of the politicians have been able to put together. Gough of course had a unique charisma, and Jim Killen wasn't far behind. One of the Sydney radio personalities organised a public debate between the two, the subject being "The Australian Flag" Gough was given the job of arguing that it should be changed and Killen had the job of arguing why it should not. It was an electrifying hour or so of debate which had you saying one way then the other then back again. There was side splitting humour right through it, and at stage Gough, who had been pushing the point that the Australian flag just wasn't recognised overseas. He gave an illustration which went something like: "When I was Chairman of Unesco in Paris, Fosters came to France and launched the brand of beer "It wasn't long before the other half of duopoly decided that it too would enter the market, bringing over Fourex itself. "Now at that time Fourex was the brand of the most popular French condom. "The problem came with the lyric "I can feel a Fourex coming on!" A decade or so later I'd flown to Perth on business. The first day was always about fifteen hours or so because of the time difference. I was staying at the Palmyra and after showering I got in the lift to go down to dinner, and was so exhausted I just had my head down looking at the floor. I heard the lift door open a floor or so down, and took no notice, but sensing something I lifted my head slightly and with a start realised I was looking at someone's fly. Looking up to see who this giant was I found myself looking into the face of Gough with that smile playing around the side of the mouth, and the aura of charisma. I burst out laughing and said "You wouldn't believe it, I was just listening to your flag debate last night" Gough looked confused and said "oh, oh but that was years ago" and I explained I'd taped it. Quick as a flash he said "Did you like the one about the Fourex!"
bexrbetter Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Until very recent times the Chinese GG, while I appreciate you trying to have a factual discussion, I have to report that your information doesn't come close to facts surrounding China. China was sodomized from the late 1800's through to WW2 by good Christian countries doing free trade and starving millions of Chinese peasants in the process, this is how Mao and Communism got to power in the first place. Until you actually go and learn at least the basics of Chinese history from say 1850 to 1950, it is impossible to have a discussion on the matter. Until very recent times the Chinese government was systematically executing people with education. Never happened and again, until you understand what the Cultural Revolution was, pleased don't pass comment on it. Interesting ammo that you would choose to use considering the amount of educated people tortured and slain under religious beliefs - and for thousands of years til this very day, not just 10 years as with the Cultural Revolution. BTW, Tony Blair was here a couple of years ago promoting his article "China's New Cultural Revolution" and he got his ass wiped on National TV to his face for calling it that, China regrets and is deeply remorseful about those 10 years. theft and cheating .... is not seen as expected or accepted behavior like it is in some countries without a significant Christian base behind their culture. You may be surprised to find I completely agree, I also mentioned a few posts ago that I appreciate radical Christianity for helping to keep Christian principles alive in our society. It's not a problem for God that you don't believe in him, He doesn't believe in Atheists. Do you understand you just denied the existence of God through that paradox?
AVOCET Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 DrWho , If babies in the womb could communicate to each other by WI FI , They would all agree that life was only 9 months old ,then the trapdoor opens and bang there gone . To them death . Not an afterlife , but more life . Get the picture . Can you bind the sweet influences of the of the Peladies ( spelling dazza) God asked Job? ( not bad for ignorant goat hearders ) Mike .
Marty_d Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 ...by contrast one of Jesus parables in the new testament supports a free market economy, this was not a new idea then but we know from historical evidence it is the one mechanism that has boosted the economic well-being - and by extension health and lifespan - of mankind more than any other. Of course what we have in Australia is no longer free as you would know, it is semi-socialist or crapitalist as some say which is why so many folks are now struggling. God's a capitalist. Of course. All makes sense now. Because of course if I were the creator of the universe and everything in it, I'd make damn sure that people followed the only political system I approved of. ...I have heard this from others also, in the west to the dismay of Atheists and leftists we still have the framework of our Christian heritage - this doesn't mean theft and cheating doesn't happen here of course but it does mean that this is not the norm in business and is not seen as expected or accepted behavior like it is in some countries without a significant Christian base behind their culture. Please tell me you're kidding. The reason businesses aren't all corrupt here is not because of good regulation, rule of law, and institutions such as the ACCC, it's because of our "christian heritage". Puh-leeez.
bexrbetter Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 They would all agree that life was only 9 months old ,then the trapdoor opens and bang there gone . All I know Mike is that I spent 9 months trying to get out and the rest of my life trying to get back in.
bexrbetter Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Who are the Masons and what crime did they commit? It was a joke, you know Freemasons, eg. "Free Nelson Mandella...."
Marty_d Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 All I know Mike is that I spent 9 months trying to get out and the rest of my life trying to get back in. Hopefully not the same one.
AVOCET Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 All I know Mike is that I spent 9 months trying to get out and the rest of my life trying to get back in. Thats about the only thing that ties all Alfa males together , no mater what species , belief , or prejidous 'ss'ss Probly the only thing we can all agree on !
turboplanner Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 There are 3 features which Gothic cathedrals usually have - pointed arches, rib-vaulted ceilings and flying buttresses. Durham Cathedral was built from 1093, 101 years before Chartres was started. It features rib-vaulted ceilings and pointed arches, but not the massive types like in Chartres. Pointed arches have been used by the Romans in bridges and other civil structures. Flying buttresses are the logical solution to handling racking pressures from the roof weights and wind pressure, enabling the outer walls to be thinner which allows for those huge windows. Buttresses have been around since ancient times - have a look at the Grand Baths of Salamis-Constantia, Cyprus, built from the 3rd century AD - which has flying buttresses supporting the sub-structure. Far from being "unheard of principles to carry the weight", all of the structural features of Gothic architecture have their evolution from other styles. The other point I have to pull you up on is "none of the Templars who built these amazing structures had any engineering experience." I don't think the knights laid down their armour, pulled on their work gear and started sketching the cathedrals. They may have funded the construction of some of them, but saying "the Templars built the cathedral" is like saying "Donald Trump built Trump Towers". Then, as now, the client fronts up the money and hires the professionals to turn their wishes into reality. I was wrong about the Templars being unskilled. As you can see below they were highly skilled in architecture and building. For Chartres Cathedral to be built to information dug up at Jerusalem rather that evolving from Romanesque, the items would have to have been unknown and non existant prior to the return of the Templars from Jerusalem, so when comparing timelines on Chartres Cathedral with Durham Cathedral, I have no argument with: Flying Buttresses Rib vaulted ceilings Pointed Arches I don't have a problem regarding the size because that would be an evolution rather than a new concept. I quoted egg shell thin walls and massive windows resulting from new technology (not the above items) I could have a problem with Flying Buttresses because the material I looked at said they allowed thinner walls - so unless the method I remembered allowed even thinner walls, then flying buttresses become part of the success story. So everything I claimed had to come from under Solomon's Temple or I was talking BS I waded through books and the internet for days, and only came up with one new structural item - the ogive Then I realised I'd seen it all in a TV documentary and tried to find that, but came up empty The documentary used a scale model which for each engineering component was loaded to failure, then the new item was added and the structure held. I remember the ceiling loading the top of the walls to the point they were pushed outwards and collapsed, then buttressing and tying from the inside somewhere which removed most of the roof load from the wall and had an anti bulge component. However, something was going on engineering-wise because these were not only monsters - a 28% width and 68% Nave height advantage over Durham, but a lot more light inside. Also four or five sources mentioned a sudden change in design after the Templars came back from Jerusalem. The art of making that particular glass was lost very quickly - before the building programme had finished. Even though Chartres is exponentially bigger and more complicated than Durham it was built in only 65% of the time. And then there's the question - why would you build a monster like this in a town of only 3,000 people. I've posted some information here, but what absolutely blew me away is that Chartres, and probably Notre Dame and the rest incorporated the sacred Egyptian dimensions which were used to lay out Washington DC, and are still used in share trading today, so there is a possible link to the tantalising Very High Civilization I'm definitely going over to Chartres to have a look. CATHEDRALS Timeline Durham Cathedral started: 1093 AD completed: 1133 – 40 years Knights Templar established: 1118 Knights Templar left Jerusalem: 1128 Chartres Cathedral started: 1194 Chartres Cathedral completed: 1220 - 26 years Dimensions Durham Cathedral Chartres Cathedral Variation Nave width: 25 m (81 feet) 32 m (105 feet) +28% Nave Height: 22 m (73 feet) 37 m (121 feet) +68% Tower Height: 66 m (218 feet) 113 m (371 feet) +71% Photos S2754 Chartres interior Source: Wikimedia Commons by Eric Pahier S2755 Chartres aerial Source: Wikipedia S2756 Durham interior Source: Wikimedia Commons by Oliver- Bontoch[ATTACH=full]32765[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]32766[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]32767[/ATTACH] The sudden appearance of Gothic architecture The Sign and the Seal: Graham Hancock “Historians had never been able to account adequately for the sudden way in which the Gothic architecture had emerged in France in the 1130s” Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral: Sir Ronald Fraser .,. the Gothic mode, which came into being suddenly…… The Hiram Key: Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas These buildings were built to a startling new plan on a scale never seen before Cathedrals and the Knights Templar “In a single century from 1170 no fewer than eighty Cathedrals and almost five hundred Abbeys were built in France alone, involving more masonry than was ever cut in ancient Egypt. These buildings were built to a startling new plan on a scale never seen before. A classic example of these super-buildings is Chartres Cathedral, which soars skyward in a composition of ornate pillars and glass. The masons at this building and others across the country were directed by the Knights Templar, whose mission was stated as seeking to “rebuild Jerusalem” in a glorious new architectural style of pillars, towers and Heaven-seeking spires. Before, we could find no previous explanation as to why the Templars suddenly took it into their heads to become master builders of a Heavenly Jerusalem in their home country, but now it all suddenly made sense to us. The instructions that the nine knights recovered from the vaults of the temple at Jerusalem had been left by the Nasoreans just before they failed in their own mission to build Heaven on Earth. James and his followers died without bringing the Kingdom of Heaven which Jesus had promised his followers, but they had left a very clear message behind them. The Nasorean scrolls could not have been found by more responsive people. The Templars took the ancient Ma’at-inspired, speculative Masonic secrets of Jesus and James for their own initiation purposes and proceeded to give the world a new, supreme level of operative masonry. Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral by Sir Ronald Fraser, derived from Les Mysteres de la Cathedrale de Chartres by M. Louis Charpentier M. Charpentier maintains that the Gothic mode, which came into being suddenly, was purposeful. Who taught the builders how to balance weight and counterweight, to arrange masses of stone so that the building vibrates to the tap of a fingernail? How to make glass that might have come from an alchemist's crucible? Who communicated the secret of ogive and pointed arch, and to whom? Nobody knows. Our author suggests that the Gothic mode expressed a principle the gods wished to make effective - a procedure that corresponds with the manifestation of a higher will that was regular in Egypt. Indeed, some measurements at Chartres correspond with those of the Great Pyramid, not to mention Solomon's temple. The Gothic mode appeared after the first Crusade and after the return to France in 1128 of the first nine knights templar. The facts suggest that those who promoted it expected a potent effect from the ogival device on which the style rests. At Chartres the ogive is based on the five-pointed star, often regarded as a symbol of Man (in Egypt for instance). The star is enclosed in a circle whose diameter is the height of the vault. We note that whereas the well is 37 metres below the choir the vault is about 37 metres above it. The length of the nave is in the relation of an octave with the length of the choir; the width of the nave is in relation of an octave with the width of the aisles. These proportions are also found in the elevation. Line and angle, height and width, the system of verticals and horizontals, reveal a series of intervals, a musical scale, in accord with the five-pointed star. Now the author links his theme with the Crusades and a visit in 1118 of nine knights templar to Jerusalem, where King Baldwin handed them for their sole use a house on the site of Solomon's temple. Their ostensible purpose was to form a small force to police the public roads and protect pilgrims from thieves and murderers. But didn't this overt assignment mask another and secret task? It looks as if they were allotted the house on the site of Solomon's temple by act of some over-riding will. The Templar Revelation, the secret guardians of the true identity of Christ: Lin Pickett, Clive Prince The Templars, it seems, had acquired exotic and heretical knowledge, but was it by accident or design? The evidence points to the latter.The Knights Templar were the prime overs behind the building of the grand Gothic cathedrals, especially that of Chartres. Throughout the long history of the great cathedrals, the strange symbolism of their decoration snd design has been puzzled over by experts from many disciplines. It is only recently that it has been seen for what it undoubtedly was, the Templars encoding of esoteric knowledge. Graham Hancock when discussing the sacred architecture of the ancient Egyptians notes that “it has been equalled in Europe only in the great gothic cathedrals of the Middle Ages such as Chartres” and poses the question “was this an accident?” Hancock continues: “I had long suspected that there had indeed been a connection and that the Knights Templar through their discoveries during the Crusades, might have formed the missing link in the chain of transmission of secret architectural knowledge . “St Bernard, the Templars patron had defined God as “length, width, height and depth”. “Nor could I forget that the Templars themselves had been great builders and great architects, or that the Cistercian monastic order to which St. Bernard belonged had also excelled in this particular field of human endeavour.” [ATTACH]47488._xfImport[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]47489._xfImport[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]47490._xfImport[/ATTACH]
nomadpete Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 T You're kidding me - you weren't aware of this? Before becoming a Freemason, a man is asked “Do you believe in God?” If he doesn’t it doesn’t proceed. Thomas Jefferson, who drafted the Declaration of Independence was a Freemason Freemasons who signed the United States Constitution Gunning Bedford Jr Delaware First Grand Master of Delaware John Blair Virginia First Grand Master of Virginia David Brearly New Jersey First Grand Master of New Jersey Jacob Broom Delaware Officer in his Lodge Daniel Carroll Maryland Mason, participated in the Masonic cornerstone laying of the US Capitol with George Washington Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Member Temple Lodge No1, Elizabethtown John Dickinson Delaware Lodge member, Dover Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Grand Master of Pennsylvania Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Member, St Johns Lodge No1, Portsmouth Rufus King Massachusetts Member, St Johns Lodge, Newburyport James McHenry Maryland Member, Spiritual Lodge No 23 William Paterson New Jersey Member, Trenton Lodge No 5 George Washington Virginia Alexandria Lodge No 22 39 people signed the Constitution, 33% were Freemasons There is a datum point in a park in Washington DC from which a series of type interrelated lines connect most of the important buildings to form a Pentastar, matching traditions of the Star family, the Egyptians, and the VHC (very high civilization) that taught them virtually overnight, possibly known as the “Watchers”. The early Sumerian texts talk of tall, god-like people who came to live among them whom they called the “Watchers”. They were taught new skills, then the Watchers would leave again. Ancient Jewish documents also make reference to them, and the dead sea scrolls also confirm an incident between a Watcher and a member of the community. In the Bible, the Book of Enoch makes reference to them. In the US, nothing much has been left to chance or heathens. As we go back through ancient civilizations there are many who have a single God reference, even though they are quite unrelated geographically. There also at least three common manifestations, a spirit which enters and leaves the human body, an afterlife, and Angels. Turbo, I didn't suggest that the founding fathers might be athiest or agnostic. I merely mentioned that I felt that it was wise to exclude religions from governments. My observations lead me to conclude that religions are generally divisive in their collective behaviour, which can easily lead to disputes. (For proof of that, consider the content of this thread, or maybe lots of wars)
turboplanner Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Well it's safe to say that's never going to happen without a totally repressive government which we wouldn't want anyway. What I pointed out in relation to the USA is that far from religion and politics being separated at the start, the Star family ensured that the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the layout of the City incorporating the pentastar were all very carefully planned in God's interests rather than Saul's "Christianity", any other religion, or uninfluenced debate of the fledgling government. That has continued with the Pentagon and other buildings and even into the NASA space programme involving the landing on the moon. I'm saying there is a God presence at work.
nomadpete Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 . “Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.” ~Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Even so, he doesn't seem to have been aware that there might be more than one religion to argue over. So many religions, and so little time to choose the winner!
nomadpete Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 5. “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” ~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams
AVOCET Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I recon George washington has turned that many times in his grave , that hes about to resurface in Darwin in the NT
Marty_d Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I was wrong about the Templars being unskilled. As you can see below they were highly skilled in architecture and building. For Chartres Cathedral to be built to information dug up at Jerusalem rather that evolving from Romanesque, the items would have to have been unknown and non existant prior to the return of the Templars from Jerusalem, so when comparing timelines on Chartres Cathedral with Durham Cathedral, I have no argument with: Flying Buttresses Rib vaulted ceilings Pointed Arches I don't have a problem regarding the size because that would be an evolution rather than a new concept. I quoted egg shell thin walls and massive windows resulting from new technology (not the above items) I could have a problem with Flying Buttresses because the material I looked at said they allowed thinner walls - so unless the method I remembered allowed even thinner walls, then flying buttresses become part of the success story. So everything I claimed had to come from under Solomon's Temple or I was talking BS I waded through books and the internet for days, and only came up with one new structural item - the ogive Then I realised I'd seen it all in a TV documentary and tried to find that, but came up empty The documentary used a scale model which for each engineering component was loaded to failure, then the new item was added and the structure held. I remember the ceiling loading the top of the walls to the point they were pushed outwards and collapsed, then buttressing and tying from the inside somewhere which removed most of the roof load from the wall and had an anti bulge component. However, something was going on engineering-wise because these were not only monsters - a 28% width and 68% Nave height advantage over Durham, but a lot more light inside. Also four or five sources mentioned a sudden change in design after the Templars came back from Jerusalem. The art of making that particular glass was lost very quickly - before the building programme had finished. Even though Chartres is exponentially bigger and more complicated than Durham it was built in only 65% of the time. And then there's the question - why would you build a monster like this in a town of only 3,000 people. I've posted some information here, but what absolutely blew me away is that Chartres, and probably Notre Dame and the rest incorporated the sacred Egyptian dimensions which were used to lay out Washington DC, and are still used in share trading today, so there is a possible link to the tantalising Very High Civilization I'm definitely going over to Chartres to have a look. CATHEDRALS Timeline Durham Cathedral started: 1093 AD completed: 1133 – 40 years Knights Templar established: 1118 Knights Templar left Jerusalem: 1128 Chartres Cathedral started: 1194 Chartres Cathedral completed: 1220 - 26 years Dimensions Durham Cathedral Chartres Cathedral Variation Nave width: 25 m (81 feet) 32 m (105 feet) +28% Nave Height: 22 m (73 feet) 37 m (121 feet) +68% Tower Height: 66 m (218 feet) 113 m (371 feet) +71% Photos S2754 Chartres interior Source: Wikimedia Commons by Eric Pahier S2755 Chartres aerial Source: Wikipedia S2756 Durham interior Source: Wikimedia Commons by Oliver- Bontoch[ATTACH=full]32765[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]32766[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]32767[/ATTACH] The sudden appearance of Gothic architecture The Sign and the Seal: Graham Hancock “Historians had never been able to account adequately for the sudden way in which the Gothic architecture had emerged in France in the 1130s” Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral: Sir Ronald Fraser .,. the Gothic mode, which came into being suddenly…… The Hiram Key: Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas These buildings were built to a startling new plan on a scale never seen before Cathedrals and the Knights Templar “In a single century from 1170 no fewer than eighty Cathedrals and almost five hundred Abbeys were built in France alone, involving more masonry than was ever cut in ancient Egypt. These buildings were built to a startling new plan on a scale never seen before. A classic example of these super-buildings is Chartres Cathedral, which soars skyward in a composition of ornate pillars and glass. The masons at this building and others across the country were directed by the Knights Templar, whose mission was stated as seeking to “rebuild Jerusalem” in a glorious new architectural style of pillars, towers and Heaven-seeking spires. Before, we could find no previous explanation as to why the Templars suddenly took it into their heads to become master builders of a Heavenly Jerusalem in their home country, but now it all suddenly made sense to us. The instructions that the nine knights recovered from the vaults of the temple at Jerusalem had been left by the Nasoreans just before they failed in their own mission to build Heaven on Earth. James and his followers died without bringing the Kingdom of Heaven which Jesus had promised his followers, but they had left a very clear message behind them. The Nasorean scrolls could not have been found by more responsive people. The Templars took the ancient Ma’at-inspired, speculative Masonic secrets of Jesus and James for their own initiation purposes and proceeded to give the world a new, supreme level of operative masonry. Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral by Sir Ronald Fraser, derived from Les Mysteres de la Cathedrale de Chartres by M. Louis Charpentier M. Charpentier maintains that the Gothic mode, which came into being suddenly, was purposeful. Who taught the builders how to balance weight and counterweight, to arrange masses of stone so that the building vibrates to the tap of a fingernail? How to make glass that might have come from an alchemist's crucible? Who communicated the secret of ogive and pointed arch, and to whom? Nobody knows. Our author suggests that the Gothic mode expressed a principle the gods wished to make effective - a procedure that corresponds with the manifestation of a higher will that was regular in Egypt. Indeed, some measurements at Chartres correspond with those of the Great Pyramid, not to mention Solomon's temple. The Gothic mode appeared after the first Crusade and after the return to France in 1128 of the first nine knights templar. The facts suggest that those who promoted it expected a potent effect from the ogival device on which the style rests. At Chartres the ogive is based on the five-pointed star, often regarded as a symbol of Man (in Egypt for instance). The star is enclosed in a circle whose diameter is the height of the vault. We note that whereas the well is 37 metres below the choir the vault is about 37 metres above it. The length of the nave is in the relation of an octave with the length of the choir; the width of the nave is in relation of an octave with the width of the aisles. These proportions are also found in the elevation. Line and angle, height and width, the system of verticals and horizontals, reveal a series of intervals, a musical scale, in accord with the five-pointed star. Now the author links his theme with the Crusades and a visit in 1118 of nine knights templar to Jerusalem, where King Baldwin handed them for their sole use a house on the site of Solomon's temple. Their ostensible purpose was to form a small force to police the public roads and protect pilgrims from thieves and murderers. But didn't this overt assignment mask another and secret task? It looks as if they were allotted the house on the site of Solomon's temple by act of some over-riding will. The Templar Revelation, the secret guardians of the true identity of Christ: Lin Pickett, Clive Prince The Templars, it seems, had acquired exotic and heretical knowledge, but was it by accident or design? The evidence points to the latter.The Knights Templar were the prime overs behind the building of the grand Gothic cathedrals, especially that of Chartres. Throughout the long history of the great cathedrals, the strange symbolism of their decoration snd design has been puzzled over by experts from many disciplines. It is only recently that it has been seen for what it undoubtedly was, the Templars encoding of esoteric knowledge. Graham Hancock when discussing the sacred architecture of the ancient Egyptians notes that “it has been equalled in Europe only in the great gothic cathedrals of the Middle Ages such as Chartres” and poses the question “was this an accident?” Hancock continues: “I had long suspected that there had indeed been a connection and that the Knights Templar through their discoveries during the Crusades, might have formed the missing link in the chain of transmission of secret architectural knowledge . “St Bernard, the Templars patron had defined God as “length, width, height and depth”. “Nor could I forget that the Templars themselves had been great builders and great architects, or that the Cistercian monastic order to which St. Bernard belonged had also excelled in this particular field of human endeavour.” Turbo, while I appreciate the lengths you've gone to, I still disagree that there needs to be a conspiracy theory behind this. Throughout history there have been periods of sudden improvement and innovation. What about the Enlightenment? The industrial revolution? More recently, the leaps in computer design? In the last 200 years, mankind has gone from the speed of a galloping horse to accelerating a particle to 99.99% of the speed of light. When you look at that, why is it so amazing that in a 100 year period the design of a stone and glass building had a period of innovation?
turboplanner Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 . “Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”~Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Even so, he doesn't seem to have been aware that there might be more than one religion to argue over. So many religions, and so little time to choose the winner! He was aware alright; he was driving the programme for the New Jerusalem (as in the Nasorean/Jerusalem. The Christians of every denomination were all the ones in the Saul downstream, so my take on that statement is that he was trying to promote an even greater softening to the point where none of them asked too many questions about the past, and all of them ultimately prayed to God anyway. If what I outlined about the time of Jesus Christ gets momentum up and becomes public on a wide scale the denominations could still say "Ah well sh$t happens, let's just pray to God then and forget about the Jesus situation.
Marty_d Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 There were 3 good arguments that Jesus was black: 1. He called everyone brother. 2. He liked Gospel. 3. He didn't get a fair trial. But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Jewish: 1. He went into his father's business. 2. He lived at home until he was 33. 3. He was sure his mother was a virgin and his mother was sure he was God. But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Italian: 1. He talked with his hands. 2. He had wine with his meals. 3. He used olive oil. But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was a Californian: 1. He never cut his hair. 2. He walked around barefoot all the time. 3. He started a new religion. But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was an American Indian: 1. He was at peace with nature. 2. He ate a lot of fish. 3. He talked about the Great Spirit. But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Irish: 1. He never got married. 2. He was always telling stories. 3. He loved green pastures. But the most compelling evidence of all - 3 proofs that Jesus was a woman: 1. He fed a crowd at a moment's notice when there was virtually no food. 2. He kept trying to get a message across to a bunch of men who just didn't get it. 3. And even when he was dead - he had to get up because there was still work to do.
turboplanner Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 5. “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” ~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams And, as we've seen in this thread, it wasn't, but rather a risky statement because if someone had said "What is it founded on then?" he would have had to say "God"
Phil Perry Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 That's fine Phil, a welcome distraction. I admit my knowledge of the relative performances of Spits vs BF109's is not as complete as it should be, and I might be slightly biased towards the Spit.If the Spit suffered from carby problems in negative G, wouldn't they commence their dive by rolling inverted and pulling hard back? J. E. ( Johnny ) Johnson mentions this a couple of times in his book "Spitfire Pilot" . . . . he was one of Douglas Bader's wingmen in the early stages of the BoB . . .he said that by the time you'd been "Bounced" from above by a couple of 109's, there simply wasn't the time to roll inverted and pull. . . . .since a lot of the pilots were fairly low time on Spitfires, and the 109 could get away towards the ground very quickly, making it inadviseable to break formation and go on a solo chase excercise. . . . by which time your quarry was out of sight or into lower cloud. . . . bloody good book that, Johnson took a cannon shell through the left wing which failed to go bang,. . .he had it patched up then flew the same Spitfire for another 2 years. He was never shot down ( Lucky bugger ! ) I dunno if it is still in print, I'll dig it out later and look up the publisher. Worst case, I'll stick it in brown paper and save up for the postage to OZ, since I've read it about four times over the years. . . ! ! ! ! ! PS. . . . . I found this Religion thread most interesting. . . . read it all afternoon yesterday ! ! ! Phil
bexrbetter Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 There were 3 good arguments that Jesus was black: 1. He called everyone brother. 2. He liked Gospel. 3. He didn't get a fair trial. I think I wet my pants ...
Marty_d Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I was wrong about the Templars being unskilled. As you can see below they were highly skilled in architecture and building. For Chartres Cathedral to be built to information dug up at Jerusalem rather that evolving from Romanesque, the items would have to have been unknown and non existant prior to the return of the Templars from Jerusalem, so when comparing timelines on Chartres Cathedral with Durham Cathedral, I have no argument with: Flying Buttresses Rib vaulted ceilings Pointed Arches I don't have a problem regarding the size because that would be an evolution rather than a new concept. I quoted egg shell thin walls and massive windows resulting from new technology (not the above items) I could have a problem with Flying Buttresses because the material I looked at said they allowed thinner walls - so unless the method I remembered allowed even thinner walls, then flying buttresses become part of the success story. So everything I claimed had to come from under Solomon's Temple or I was talking BS I waded through books and the internet for days, and only came up with one new structural item - the ogive Then I realised I'd seen it all in a TV documentary and tried to find that, but came up empty The documentary used a scale model which for each engineering component was loaded to failure, then the new item was added and the structure held. I remember the ceiling loading the top of the walls to the point they were pushed outwards and collapsed, then buttressing and tying from the inside somewhere which removed most of the roof load from the wall and had an anti bulge component. However, something was going on engineering-wise because these were not only monsters - a 28% width and 68% Nave height advantage over Durham, but a lot more light inside. Also four or five sources mentioned a sudden change in design after the Templars came back from Jerusalem. The art of making that particular glass was lost very quickly - before the building programme had finished. Even though Chartres is exponentially bigger and more complicated than Durham it was built in only 65% of the time. And then there's the question - why would you build a monster like this in a town of only 3,000 people. I've posted some information here, but what absolutely blew me away is that Chartres, and probably Notre Dame and the rest incorporated the sacred Egyptian dimensions which were used to lay out Washington DC, and are still used in share trading today, so there is a possible link to the tantalising Very High Civilization I'm definitely going over to Chartres to have a look. CATHEDRALS Timeline Durham Cathedral started: 1093 AD completed: 1133 – 40 years Knights Templar established: 1118 Knights Templar left Jerusalem: 1128 Chartres Cathedral started: 1194 Chartres Cathedral completed: 1220 - 26 years Dimensions Durham Cathedral Chartres Cathedral Variation Nave width: 25 m (81 feet) 32 m (105 feet) +28% Nave Height: 22 m (73 feet) 37 m (121 feet) +68% Tower Height: 66 m (218 feet) 113 m (371 feet) +71% Photos S2754 Chartres interior Source: Wikimedia Commons by Eric Pahier S2755 Chartres aerial Source: Wikipedia S2756 Durham interior Source: Wikimedia Commons by Oliver- Bontoch[ATTACH=full]32765[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]32766[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]32767[/ATTACH] The sudden appearance of Gothic architecture The Sign and the Seal: Graham Hancock “Historians had never been able to account adequately for the sudden way in which the Gothic architecture had emerged in France in the 1130s” Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral: Sir Ronald Fraser .,. the Gothic mode, which came into being suddenly…… The Hiram Key: Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas These buildings were built to a startling new plan on a scale never seen before Cathedrals and the Knights Templar “In a single century from 1170 no fewer than eighty Cathedrals and almost five hundred Abbeys were built in France alone, involving more masonry than was ever cut in ancient Egypt. These buildings were built to a startling new plan on a scale never seen before. A classic example of these super-buildings is Chartres Cathedral, which soars skyward in a composition of ornate pillars and glass. The masons at this building and others across the country were directed by the Knights Templar, whose mission was stated as seeking to “rebuild Jerusalem” in a glorious new architectural style of pillars, towers and Heaven-seeking spires. Before, we could find no previous explanation as to why the Templars suddenly took it into their heads to become master builders of a Heavenly Jerusalem in their home country, but now it all suddenly made sense to us. The instructions that the nine knights recovered from the vaults of the temple at Jerusalem had been left by the Nasoreans just before they failed in their own mission to build Heaven on Earth. James and his followers died without bringing the Kingdom of Heaven which Jesus had promised his followers, but they had left a very clear message behind them. The Nasorean scrolls could not have been found by more responsive people. The Templars took the ancient Ma’at-inspired, speculative Masonic secrets of Jesus and James for their own initiation purposes and proceeded to give the world a new, supreme level of operative masonry. Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral by Sir Ronald Fraser, derived from Les Mysteres de la Cathedrale de Chartres by M. Louis Charpentier M. Charpentier maintains that the Gothic mode, which came into being suddenly, was purposeful. Who taught the builders how to balance weight and counterweight, to arrange masses of stone so that the building vibrates to the tap of a fingernail? How to make glass that might have come from an alchemist's crucible? Who communicated the secret of ogive and pointed arch, and to whom? Nobody knows. Our author suggests that the Gothic mode expressed a principle the gods wished to make effective - a procedure that corresponds with the manifestation of a higher will that was regular in Egypt. Indeed, some measurements at Chartres correspond with those of the Great Pyramid, not to mention Solomon's temple. The Gothic mode appeared after the first Crusade and after the return to France in 1128 of the first nine knights templar. The facts suggest that those who promoted it expected a potent effect from the ogival device on which the style rests. At Chartres the ogive is based on the five-pointed star, often regarded as a symbol of Man (in Egypt for instance). The star is enclosed in a circle whose diameter is the height of the vault. We note that whereas the well is 37 metres below the choir the vault is about 37 metres above it. The length of the nave is in the relation of an octave with the length of the choir; the width of the nave is in relation of an octave with the width of the aisles. These proportions are also found in the elevation. Line and angle, height and width, the system of verticals and horizontals, reveal a series of intervals, a musical scale, in accord with the five-pointed star. Now the author links his theme with the Crusades and a visit in 1118 of nine knights templar to Jerusalem, where King Baldwin handed them for their sole use a house on the site of Solomon's temple. Their ostensible purpose was to form a small force to police the public roads and protect pilgrims from thieves and murderers. But didn't this overt assignment mask another and secret task? It looks as if they were allotted the house on the site of Solomon's temple by act of some over-riding will. The Templar Revelation, the secret guardians of the true identity of Christ: Lin Pickett, Clive Prince The Templars, it seems, had acquired exotic and heretical knowledge, but was it by accident or design? The evidence points to the latter.The Knights Templar were the prime overs behind the building of the grand Gothic cathedrals, especially that of Chartres. Throughout the long history of the great cathedrals, the strange symbolism of their decoration snd design has been puzzled over by experts from many disciplines. It is only recently that it has been seen for what it undoubtedly was, the Templars encoding of esoteric knowledge. Graham Hancock when discussing the sacred architecture of the ancient Egyptians notes that “it has been equalled in Europe only in the great gothic cathedrals of the Middle Ages such as Chartres” and poses the question “was this an accident?” Hancock continues: “I had long suspected that there had indeed been a connection and that the Knights Templar through their discoveries during the Crusades, might have formed the missing link in the chain of transmission of secret architectural knowledge . “St Bernard, the Templars patron had defined God as “length, width, height and depth”. “Nor could I forget that the Templars themselves had been great builders and great architects, or that the Cistercian monastic order to which St. Bernard belonged had also excelled in this particular field of human endeavour.” Turbo, I just looked up your sources. Some might be a bit shonky. Graham Hancock: "...his methods and conclusions have found little support among academics, his work being labelled "pseudoarchaeology"." Robert Lomas & Christopher Knight: "Elements of his work have been described as 'hoaxes' by members of the Freemasonry community. For example, the redaction of a document called "The Masonic Testament" by Lomas and co-author Christopher Knight, in their Book of Hiram (2003), from fragments of old manuscripts and ritual,[7] has been described as "An invention by the highly imaginative authors ... which has no historical validity". Louis Charpentier: "..In his book, The Giants and the mystery of origins, it postulates the existence in France of planning a huge board game that grows in a spiral whose "cases" are marked megalithic monuments, places which still bear the name of the god Lug and his consort Lusine..." (translated from French by Google Translate) Point is, I enjoy a Dan Brown novel as much as the next bloke, but I don't mistake it for reality.
AVOCET Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Phill , i did my apprenticeship with old Jack Simpson who flu spitfires in the Battle of Britten He was shot down 8 times and survived , had a scare on every part of his body , He argued black and blue that the last landing was accompanied by " angles from Mons " 0n his wing Any thoughts?
Marty_d Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 J. E. ( Johnny ) Johnson mentions this a couple of times in his book "Spitfire Pilot" . . . . he was one of Douglas Bader's wingmen in the early stages of the BoB . . .he said that by the time you'd been "Bounced" from above by a couple of 109's, there simply wasn't the time to roll inverted and pull. . . . .since a lot of the pilots were fairly low time on Spitfires, and the 109 could get away towards the ground very quickly, making it inadviseable to break formation and go on a solo chase excercise. . . . by which time your quarry was out of sight or into lower cloud. . . . bloody good book that, Johnson took a cannon shell through the left wing which failed to go bang,. . .he had it patched up then flew the same Spitfire for another 2 years. He was never shot down ( Lucky bugger ! ) I dunno if it is still in print, I'll dig it out later and look up the publisher. Worst case, I'll stick it in brown paper and save up for the postage to OZ, since I've read it about four times over the years. . . ! ! ! ! ! PS. . . . . I found this Religion thread most interesting. . . . read it all afternoon yesterday ! ! ! Phil I just had a quick look but couldn't see his book on Amazon. There's one about him (" Spitfire Ace of Aces: The Wartime Story of Johnnie Johnson by Dilip Sarkar") and one BY him (" Cassell Military Classics: Full Circle: The Story of Air Fighting by J.E. ('Johnnie') Johnson") But not "Spitfire Pilot" (although there are a couple with that title, by other people). Thanks for the offer Phil but don't go posting it over, I've got a heap of reading material already and am already burning the candle at both ends (with 3 small children my free time starts around 8:30pm until bedtime, and that includes working on the plane, reading, and any TV I might want to watch). But I do appreciate the offer!
Marty_d Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I think I wet my pants ... Check for a small puddle under your seat, then you'll know for sure!
AVOCET Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 A Post no. 5 As long as you don't talk theology or politics . I carnt believe i said that . And i carnt believe i just replied to my own post !
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