Atheist knowledge

[turboplanner]

Over many years now in discussion with believers is the assertion in response to the question How do you know? The reply is..." it is in the bible so it's a fact. The bible is god's word".. I just cannot accept that idea, and why would any thinking person do so?. The BIBLE wasn't written by god, IF it was I'm sure a better job would have been done of it. It was written and altered many times by people, so it's contaminated at least, if not something worse. Nev

Buy yourself a copy of The Hiram Key on amazon.com; you've seen what I've written, and while the book has been written to trace the history of freemasonry, they are thorough researchers, and went right back past the story of Jesus Christ. I'm not saying they are 100% correct, but there are enough references there that you can go off and research what interests you.

 

Certainly it appears the New Testament may well be the world's biggest example of marketing spin which made the catholic church rich beyond all dreams.

 

After researching a lot of information for this thread, I found myself questioning what the Bible really is and how it fits in. I've made a few efforts to read it, but never seem to get past the begats, and as part of my Anglican Confirmation training, I was never required to abide by, or even research the Bible. Instead, the group was pointed to a few examples of trying to do good, and leaving the world a better place for our being here.

 

As you say, it certainly isn't God's word, we know who wrote it and when, and maybe one of them was even Don's goat herder.

 

 

[turboplanner]

He is unfortunately saying the same stuff that mucked up my mind when I was in my teens. Having brought up the whole matter as contemptuous of atheist thought and in the humour section I don't think there is much left to be said about the genuineness of what he contributes to an in depth discussion. (It was meant to rubbish atheists..) It's rarely able to be had anywhere on this matter , but distinctly unproductive in this instance, with the instigator. I again thank many for their honest and revealling contributions to the discussion. It is heartwarming to know some are game to be to declare their beliefs, or lack of, when you know it won't make any difference to entrenched views. Nev

The atheists haven't done a bad job of attacking, rubbishing, asking for impossible proofs, even proofs which are obtainable after days of research, in return offering a smartarse Bernard Russell throwaway, so don't be too hard on him.

 

It's also a bit rich suggesting those who disagree with you are labelled "entrenched"

 

Relax, none of us know it all yet.

 

 

[Bikky]

I appreciate your efforts at research TP and I value your balanced comments.

 

However, I think you might agree that there is no easier way to aggravate a believer than tell them you are atheist.

 

In my experience, atheists spend a great deal of time defending their right to disbelieve.

 

This has led many of us to actively rebel against belief/religion and become rather cynical.

 

We ask for evidence and get everything but.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, well I'm in the reverse position to you. I usually shut up in conversations about religion, but get sick of the loud "That's just bullsh!t, there's nothing there!

 

And as you say, they ask for evidence, and if you give them a reference, they counter by asking the names of he survivors of the Titanic.

 

 

[horsefeathers]

It's always much easier to be part of the flock. Independent thought is not encouraged by believers if it goes against whichever sacred life manual they subscribe to.I'm not going to take spiritual guidance from a book written by bronze age goat-herders that informs me that I will go to their hell if I don't repent and tell their invisible sky friend how good he is.

 

I actually find the whole subject rather humorous!

 

Just try to do the right thing, be good to each other and what will be, will be.

Bikky, I find your lack of faith disturbing!!! As an ordained Pastafarianism minister in the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, I can only hope and pray you see the truth, and become one with his sacred noodlyness.

 

“Accept His Noodly Magnificence into your heart, into your soul, and ye shall forever be free. R'Amen.”

 

—Ragu on Pastafarianism

 

Now let us pray The Noodles Prayer, which is the most common prayer, as dictated by the prophet Ragu:

 

Our saucer which art in a colander, draining be Your noodles. Thy noodle come, Thy meatballness be done on earth, as it is meaty in heaven. Give us this day our daily sauce, and forgive us our lack of piracy, as we pirate and smuggle against those who lack piracy with us. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us from non-red meat sauce. For thine is the colander, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. R'Amen.

 

 

[facthunter]

Turbs there are "Entrenched" views in many religions. You are a researcher and that's fine so it doesn't apply to you. Relax. I've only responded here because someone essentially asserted atheist "thinking" is a joke. Anyone can believe what they like as long as their views don't result in me not being permitted to have a contrary one.. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

Since the Bible is such a long winded drama, I think I will wait until the movie verson comes out.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Exodus will be in cinemas very soon Dazza - I think that's Part 357 of the Big Movie

 

 

[Marty_d]

Since the Bible is such a long winded drama, I think I will wait until the movie verson comes out.

Apparently it came out last year.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2245988/

 

I don't think it'll make any more sense than the book.

 

 

[Marty_d]

The atheists haven't done a bad job of attacking, rubbishing, asking for impossible proofs, even proofs which are obtainable after days of research, in return offering a smartarse Bernard Russell throwaway, so don't be too hard on him.

Turbo, I think the point to remember is that atheists/agnostics are not trying to prove anything, because, as has been stated several times, you can't prove a negative.

 

If someone puts forward a proposition, like "I have a cure for cancer" or "I can build an engine which runs only on sea water" or "I've designed a perpetual motion machine", then anyone in their right mind, instead of going "Wow! Fantastic! I'm going to tell everyone about this!", would instead go "That sounds good, now show me the evidence, including the results of the double-blind placebo trials, engineering reports, peer reviews, etc."

 

However it seems that someone can put forth an equally unlikely proposition, eg "There is a god who created everything in the universe" (not to mention all the other stuff like seeing every thought you have and sending you to hell if you don't believe), and for some reason we don't hold them to the same level of evidentiary proof as any other claim.

 

In the end it really doesn't matter what people believe, as long as that belief does not impact on other people. Treat other people how you'd like to be treated and apart from that, do what you like. If Gnarly Gnu wants to believe that the world is 6000 years old and that 99% of humanity is going to hell, that's his business. But if he goes on to a public forum and starts picking on atheists, then he should expect return fire.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Apparently it came out last year.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2245988/

 

I don't think it'll make any more sense than the book.

I hope it is in the fiction section.

 

 

[Bikky]

And as you say, they ask for evidence, and if you give them a reference, they counter by asking the names of he survivors of the Titanic.

The day a reference becomes evidence, I will believe!

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

I hope it is in the fiction section.

This is the central hope of all atheists.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The day a reference becomes evidence, I will believe!

A reference is not evidence, and I've never said it was, but it is a step towards you, if you are prepared to actually go looking, finding evidence.

 

Of course, people who are dogmatic don't want to find evidence which might upset the apple cart.

 

 

[eightyknots]

History is full of "invaders" from the dawn of time (Sunday, October 23, 4004 B.C), that's what we do, conquer in order to expand our race be it Romans, Mongolians, Vikings, Anglosaxons, Spanish, etc, etc....

I would appreciate the title "Conqueror" in future as it's more heroic and manly, thanks.

Bex The Conqueror : I hope you will conquer the recreational aviation market with your proposed donk!

 

 

[eightyknots]

...

I was on the lookout for references to this continent but can't recall him saying the fleet actually got here. He seemed to be saying they knew of this place and traded with people who came here regularly. If he is right about the extent of Chinese exploration that may give Beijing added leverage in future dealings... Perhaps reason enough for the west to downplay his theories.

 

Their map of ice-free Northern Greenland sure got my attention; it deserves more study.

When the Vikings "discovered" Greenland they called it Greenland for a reason: it was lush and green. They decided to settle this area. Slowly but surely, due to global cooling, Greenland is increasingly becoming white. I have flown over it and I think by now it should be renamed Whiteland. Oh for a bit more global warming to bring Greenland back to the green land it once was.

 

Sorry for the thread drift but I think it is significant that a number of ancient sources all say the same thing, that the world was a much warmer place ...and that the people who want to "combat" global warming are trying to stop the world from going back to an earlier equilibrium when the planet was a bit warmer.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's right Eighty, with the exception of the Ice Age, which ended about 10,000 to 15,000 years ago.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Sorry GG, but I think you're a little misguided there. The symbol is known as the Rod of Asclepius. Asclepias was the ancient Greek god of medicine - son of Apollo and a mortal woman. The fact that this symbol was mentioned in Acts does not signify it's Christian.By the way, as a keen bible student, you have no doubt noted that Acts also states Christ was crucified on a tree.

 

Ever wondered why we still symbolise Easter (more accurately named Eostre) with rabbits and eggs? Wouldn't happen to be an ancient pagan festival would it?

 

Coincidental that Christmas and the solstice (a major pagan festival) are so close together?

 

I don't think so!

 

A clever strategy isn't it? Absorb and conquer ...

Some Christians have recognised that and do not celebrate Christmas and Easter because of their pagan origin.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I don't know where I got it, but I thought it was a low bridge or archway somewhere. Hence "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle" meant it'd have to pretty much have to shuffle forward on its knees.

It's a small gate in the walls of Jerusalem. This could be kept open because it is hard for an army to invade through there in a hurry. Because it is narrow and low, it is more difficult a for a camel to get through it.

 

 

[eightyknots]

GG, I'm impressed by your ability to find a biblical quotation to support every situation and circumstance, but I'm really at a loss to understand the world you live in. For example, Marty mentioned Original Sin, and having been brought up Catholic that's a familiar concept. However, some six decades later the idea that I somehow inevitably share in Adam and Eve's guilt just seems like superstitious nonsense, and I'm sure any God worth his/her salt would see the basic injustice in that notion. So does your black and white view that we can't enter heaven (wherever and whatever that may be) unless we are free of sin, and that we are all sinners and inevitably doomed unless we repent (and what does that mean exactly?). And let's not even start on the question of the origin of our species and all the other life forms on the planet, the planet itself and the universe(s?) in general. Fortunately we are all free to make up our own minds on these subjects, and while you would probably see me as an incorrigible and unrepentant sinner, I'm sorry to say that nothing that you have said makes any sense to me.rgmwa

 

Hello Jaba, when I see remarks like this and Bex's I can't tell if you are both goofing off (fair enough, it is the funny section) or are actually serious and really haven't looked into basic Christian theology at all. For the past 6000 odd years mankind has been living under the curse of sin and death so thus we can expect to see disease, death, suffering, sickness and the like. I'm sitting here right now looking at one of the natural wonders of the world, it is an absolutely fabulous view - but it is certainly not perfect as a closer inspection reveals. Something happened; what was designed perfect has been marred. Same with the human body, terrific design but with flaws.... read about it in books like Genesis and Romans eg 5v12 "For this cause, even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

We can see the effect of sin in everyone, in varying levels people can be greedy, they can lie, cheat, steal.... all sorts of bad things happen daily. Of course it is always easy for us to see this in other people, not so easy to recognize that it is the same problem in oneself! By definition the only place without sin is heaven which is why we cannot be accepted there with our sin.

...and that is why the forgiveness of sins is so imperative in the whole scheme of things.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

...and that is why the forgiveness of sins is so imperative in the whole scheme of things.

Or as a Jew in a NAZI concentration camp put it:

 

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[turboplanner]

If you want to be an atheist, that's fine. but you are displaying an ignorance of the history written in the Bible by displaying something like that when there are plenty of examples written, and plenty of examples of how man has sinned.

 

Did you think God was going to walk up with an AK47 and fix up all the Nazis? Because if you did, be prepared for many more surprises.

 

 

[dazza 38]

If you want to be an atheist, that's fine. but you are displaying an ignorance of the history written in the Bible by displaying something like that when there are plenty of examples written, and plenty of examples of how man has sinned.Did you think God was going to walk up with an AK47 and fix up all the Nazis? Because if you did, be prepared for many more surprises.

He could have thrown a lighting bolt or two.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't blame Him, or it or her . Humans do rotten things to each other. At least recognise it rather than use YOUR God to justify it. Peeps this is a day old.

 

Turbs may I say One doesn't necessarily WANT to be an atheist. Want doesn't have much to do with it . Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Some necessarily do, and flaunt it, and ridicule religion though.