Atheist knowledge

[turboplanner]

The UP part probably comes with the intense focus of early civilizations with the stars, and if you believe the alien theories, with people who "came from the stars in feathered serpents".

 

Must admit I haven't studied the HELL bit. Is that a Christian belief, or does it go further back?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Must admit I haven't studied the HELL bit. Is that a Christian belief, or does it go further back?

I haven't studied it either but according to my Dad as I was growing up it sure must be a "BLOODY" place!

 

 

[facthunter]

Maybe there's HELL and also BLOODY HELL. There's also WHOLLY HELL. Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

Without taking sides, how has UP come to be associated with Heaven and DOWN with Hell?Humans are funny cattle.

Well, when we were tiny little lemur-like things, up in the trees was safe, down on the ground was dino-food. Evolution.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Gnarly, here are seven things you shouldn't say to the atheist in your family:

 

1. “Why are you angry with God?”

 

Atheists are no angrier with God than with the Tooth Fairy. Only God-believers can be angry with God. Some people might have become atheists because they are not satisfied with theodicy explanations about why a good and powerful god would allow so much evil in the world, but most have become atheists primarily because they find no evidence for the existence of any gods.

 

2. “You'll be a believer when you have a big problem.”

 

This is an offshoot of the “no atheists in foxholes” cliché. (See, for instance, the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers.) Atheists tend to address problems by looking for practical solutions to resolve them, and through supportive friends, family, and medical doctors. Many believers “talk” to God only when they have a problem, so such a comment is more applicable to theists than to atheists.

 

3. “Why are you rejecting our family? Was it our fault?”

 

Would you ask this question of a family member who voted for a different political candidate? Would you rather the atheist simply lie or remain silent (as others in the family might actually be doing)?

 

4. “I feel sorry for you.”

 

How would you feel if the atheist says he feels sorry for you because you are basing your life on nonsense? Would a Christian tell a Jew that he feels sorry for him? Atheists don’t feel sorry for themselves, nor do they feel deprived of something real. We don’t need to believe in God to find joy in our lives.

 

5. “You got into a bad crowd.”

 

True, the family member might have been influenced by discussions with friends or books they have read. It might be a different crowd, but it’s not likely to be a bad one. Atheists might say they no longer mindlessly believe the religious things they were taught when they were growing up.

 

6. “Don’t assume that your beliefs are right.”

 

You believe your views are correct, but your atheist family member also thinks his/her views are correct. Anyone who changes from religious beliefs has likely thought it through very carefully, perhaps a lot more so than those who stay with the religion in which they were raised.

 

7. “We just want to make sure you will be with us in heaven.”

 

This makes an atheist think that your God is petty and arbitrary. Why would a loving God ignore good works and condemn someone to hell solely because of an incorrect belief? Also, we question why a component of your eternal bliss in heaven wouldn’t include having your loved ones there with you, rather than being tortured for eternity.

 

 

[turboplanner]

1. “Why are you angry with God?”Atheists are no angrier with God than with the Tooth Fairy. Only God-believers can be angry with God. Some people might have become atheists because they are not satisfied with theodicy explanations about why a good and powerful god would allow so much evil in the world, but most have become atheists primarily because they find no evidence for the existence of any gods.

Nevertheless there are some atheists who are angry with God and have said so on here because He didn't fix this or didn't save that.

 

2. “

You'll be a believer when you have a big problem.”

This is an offshoot of the “no atheists in foxholes” cliché. (See, for instance, the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers.) Atheists tend to address problems by looking for practical solutions to resolve them, and through supportive friends, family, and medical doctors. Many believers “talk” to God only when they have a problem, so such a comment is more applicable to theists than to atheists.

I've seen hundreds of them on television over the years say something like "I don't believe in God, but I prayed last night", particularly when they are most vulnerable, like having a loved on in ICU.

 

3. “Why are you rejecting our family? Was it our fault?”

Would you ask this question of a family member who voted for a different political candidate? Would you rather the atheist simply lie or remain silent (as others in the family might actually be doing)?

Well in previous years if one of use voted for a different Party they would be quietly taken out the back and shot like lazy sheep dogs, but I'm not sure who your question was meant to be addressed to. If it was an Atheist he shouldn't be asking God anything.

 

4. “I feel sorry for you.”

How would you feel if the atheist says he feels sorry for you because you are basing your life on nonsense? Would a Christian tell a Jew that he feels sorry for him? Atheists don’t feel sorry for themselves, nor do they feel deprived of something real. We don’t need to believe in God to find joy in our lives.

They are probably just trying to be polite, or politically correct.

 

5. “You got into a bad crowd.”

True, the family member might have been influenced by discussions with friends or books they have read. It might be a different crowd, but it’s not likely to be a bad one. Atheists might say they no longer mindlessly believe the religious things they were taught when they were growing up.

Many of your references have been about Catholic teaching, which as we've said was a slick set of techniques to part the believers from their money, but you probably did get into a bad crowd, and people are trying to be helpful.

 

6. “Don’t assume that your beliefs are right.”

You believe your views are correct, but your atheist family member also thinks his/her views are correct. Anyone who changes from religious beliefs has likely thought it through very carefully, perhaps a lot more so than those who stay with the religion in which they were raised.

I've learnt over time never to assume anything, be it people who have odd beliefs, cross dressers, gays, and even women.

 

7. “We just want to make sure you will be with us in heaven.”

This makes an atheist think that your God is petty and arbitrary. Why would a loving God ignore good works and condemn someone to hell solely because of an incorrect belief? Also, we question why a component of your eternal bliss in heaven wouldn’t include having your loved ones there with you, rather than being tortured for eternity.

No we don't! You party poopers would then start bawling is out about not making it clear enough that there was a God, and not telling you the correct door into Heaven.

 

 

[octave]

Nevertheless there are some atheists who are angry with God and have said so on here because He didn't fix this or didn't save that

Here we go again, by definition there are no atheists who are angry at god, that does not make sense. If an atheist is angry at god then by definition the are not an atheist. Being angry at god surely can only occur if you believe in god. Turbs I assume you don't in Thor? Perhaps it is because you angry at him

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're quite right Octave - I wouldn't think to blame Thor for anything, but as I said, and if you look carefully at the posts, you will see that some atheists have taken it upon themselves to defy gravity and actually get angry with God, who when they are more rational, they profess doesn't exist - it's a funny world.

 

 

[octave]

You're quite right Octave - I wouldn't think to blame Thor for anything, but as I said, and if you look carefully at the posts, you will see that some atheists have taken it upon themselves to defy gravity and actually get angry with God, who when they are more rational, they profess doesn't exist - it's a funny world.

Turbs don't confuse someone asking "why did god allow disaster x to occur" with an actual belief in god. When I ask a believer such a question, what I mean is "you say there is a god, then why does x happen." This is a hypothetical not a statement of a belief in god

 

 

[turboplanner]

You might ask that Octave, but nevertheless the bloopers are there for all to see - it's the God they say doesn't exist that they're blaming.

 

 

[octave]

It is important to recognise that people do use hypotheticals and perhaps leave out the "if" "then" part. A tactic of the believer is sometimes to make the assumption that us atheist only think that we are non believers and that a simple argument such as "see you just a quoted the bible, you must be a believer, but you just don't know it yet." Do you have any good examples of quotes from this thread where you think somone says they are an atheist but poses questions about god in a way other than as a hypothetical question?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Now you're quoting hypothetical conversations. If you're interested you can look up people's posts yourself Octave. They weren't having conversations necessarily with me.

 

 

[Bikky]

An atheist asking, "Why does god allow African babies to die of AIDS?", doesn't mean he believes in god. They are usually presenting evidence of his/her/its non-existence and it should be seen as such.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

To be fair, Turbs is right to the extent that I think some on here have expressed the view that they became atheist because they "lost their faith" due to things their God had allowed to happen (to the world in general or themselves in particular). For some this was evidence that there is no God. They may not have reached that conclusion if bad things hadn't happened to them or around them. Me personally, I enjoyed being religious. I was right into it apart from the converting the rest of the world part. Over a period of time as I came to know more of the world and comparative religions, I came to the conclusion that there was no evidence of the God or even any God. It seemed to me that there is a basic human need for people to understand and put there life into perspective. Some are happy with the uncertainty of not knowing everything and the joy of discovery. Others crave completeness and anything they don't understand is washed away with the "God works in mysterious ways".

 

My view is the purpose for life is to live it. You only get one go at it before your atoms disassemble , which is a pity because I know I could do a much better job next time around. My clock is winding down and I'm going to get the most out of life. I don't know why (it could be an evolutionary survival technique) but I want to live life in a way that allows me to feel good about myself. For me that requires living ethically. I know I could do a better job of that but in the important things I'm not completely disappointed.

 

I just hope that the theists of the world would realise that the only way to guarantee freedom of religion is to guarantee freedom to be religious or not. Muslims do not want freedom of religion and plenty of Christian schisms don't either - even if they don't pursue their intolerance like they once did.

 

Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone!

 

(tick . . . tick . . . tick . . . )

 

 

[Bikky]

... and happy solstice (for our pagan members).

 

 

[DonRamsay]

... and happy solstice (for our pagan members).

I don’t mind in the slightest referring to December 25th as “Christmas.” To us it is a mostly joyous time. As we all know, it was originally a pagan, mid-winter festival before it was hijacked for Christ's birthday celebrations. I am much happier about Christmas than the Jack the Ripper story of Easter.

 

Historically, December 25th was “Dies Natalis Solos Invicti,” a holiday in the name of the Roman sun god Sol Invictus that marked the winter solstice, and the period from December 17th to 25th was a Roman holiday called “Saturnalia.”

 

For around 1600 years, a substantial number of people have been calling it “Christmas”. That I'm an atheist doesn't stop me from enjoying the cultural festivities of Christmas even though I don't worship Sol (slip slop slap) or JC.

 

 

[turboplanner]

An atheist asking, "Why does god allow African babies to die of AIDS?", doesn't mean he believes in god. They are usually presenting evidence of his/her/its non-existence and it should be seen as such.

That may be true, but that wasn't what we were talking about.

 

 

[turboplanner]

To be fair, Turbs is right to the extent that I think some on here have expressed the view that they became atheist because they "lost their faith" due to things their God had allowed to happen (to the world in general or themselves in particular).

No, wasn't talking about them either; I think they deserve reasonable latitude.

 

I'm sorry to be sounding so ambiguous, when you all write these scenarios, and maybe you should all be screenwriters, but it was a very simple sentence.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I was reading an interesting article in New Scientist today while in the dentist's waiting room. Seems that despite the claims from churches, religiosity is not in fact on the rise. Even in highly religious countries like Brazil, the trends are definitely towards non-belief, whether that be by "analytical atheism" (working out that there's no god by logic), or "apatheism" (ie just not thinking about the whole question as it doesn't affect your life).

 

The encouraging data is that while children raised by actively religious parents have a 50% chance of retaining a religious belief, children raised by non-religious parents only have a 3% likelihood of becoming religious. So over time, assuming that religious folks stop breeding larger litters than non-believers, this trend towards secularism should continue.

 

Religiosity however is also increased in the wake of disaster (the example given was Christchurch - although NZ is a reasonably secular society, there was a spike in church attendance following the quake destruction). So if the worst parts of climate change eventuate, this may counter the trend.

 

There was also some information about why humanity is geared towards religiosity, mentally - it's all down to evolution. Can't remember everything in the article, but the example was given that the people most likely to survive were those who assumed that every rustle of a bush was caused by a carnivore about to pounce on them. This assumption, that some agency is responsible for even benign events, has hardwired our brains into assigning agency to every event. Thus the need to explain natural occurrences by saying they're the will of some deity.

 

 

[Bikky]

Nevertheless there are some atheists who are angry with God and have said so on here because He didn't fix this or didn't save that.

 

An atheist asking, "Why does god allow African babies to die of AIDS?", doesn't mean he believes in god. They are usually presenting evidence of his/her/its non-existence and it should be seen as such.

 

That may be true, but that wasn't what we were talking about.

You sure about that? Hating or blaming something that doesn't exist seems rather futile, doesn't it?

 

You can't be an atheist if you hate god/gods - defies logic.

 

 

[Bikky]

Even in highly religious countries like Brazil, the trends are definitely towards non-belief,

Marty, I wish that were true but what I see on a daily basis doesn't confirm this. Buses here aren't air-conditioned. They don't need to be. Every time a bus passes a catholic church (every two minutes it seems), hang on to your hat because 90% of the passengers start genuflecting wildly creating a cooling breeze.

 

Most trucks here are owned by Jesus as evidenced by the large decals on the windscreens.

 

Every second car proudly displays a "present from god" sticker on the rear window.

 

On last count, 94% of the population are believers and I think that's true.

 

Being an atheist here, I am very much in the minority.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Marty, I wish that were true but what I see on a daily basis doesn't confirm this. Buses here aren't air-conditioned. They don't need to be. Every time a bus passes a catholic church (every two minutes it seems), hang on to your hat because 90% of the passengers start genuflecting wildly creating a cooling breeze.Most trucks here are owned by Jesus as evidenced by the large decals on the windscreens.

 

Every second car proudly displays a "present from god" sticker on the rear window.

 

On last count, 94% of the population are believers and I think that's true.

 

Being an atheist here, I am very much in the minority.

I went to buy a second-hand car in Ireland and had a hard time finding one without a plastic saint glued to the dashboard, apparently that's the Irish replacement for airbags, crumple zones and adequate driver training. However that was also mentioned in the article as a country where secularism is trending upward.

 

Maybe you're not seeing it, but they've done the surveys. If their data gathering methods were sound and their statistical methodology up to scratch (and being New Scientist, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't), then I tend to believe them.

 

 

[Bikky]

Maybe you're not seeing it, but they've done the surveys. If their data gathering methods were sound and their statistical methodology up to scratch (and being New Scientist, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't), then I tend to believe them.

I hope the statistics are right and they could well be. Given the almost rabid religiosity here, atheists tend to keep a low public profile. It's actually dangerous to profess non-belief. On reflection, most atheists and doubters are of the younger generation. They're also the ones rebelling against littering - an unbelievably common event here perpetuated in the main by those of my generation, hypocrisy, sexism, racism, corruption, drink-driving and the other ills that plague society.

 

I get the opportunity to meet them because I teach them English. Gives me some hope.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You sure about that? Hating or blaming something that doesn't exist seems rather futile, doesn't it?You can't be an atheist if you hate god/gods - defies logic.

 

I'm sure about what the atheists have written, and I agree, hating something they don't believe in defies logic, but that's what they say. Makes me very suspicious abut people who meet the definition I posted early in the thread.

 

 

[Bikky]

The or some?