Atheist knowledge

[Marty_d]

Apparently muslim leaders around the world are offended at Charlie Hebdo's latest cover.

 

"True believers" had walked in there with AK47's and slaughtered 12 of their staff the previous week. I'd say the cover was remarkably restrained.

 

I find most violence abhorrent. Violence against innocents is especially bad, and violence against innocents for religious reasons is the most barbaric and stupid.

 

When are these idiots going to get a clue - Charlie Hebdo was barely moving 30,000 copies before this, now they did a print run of 3 million and sold out in minutes. Far from "avenging the prophet" they just gave the entire world a new reason to despise their silly beliefs.

 

 

[rgmwa]

When are these idiots going to get a clue - Charlie Hebdo was barely moving 30,000 copies before this, now they did a print run of 3 million and sold out in minutes. Far from "avenging the prophet" they just gave the entire world a new reason to despise their silly beliefs.

I agree Marty, but let's not forget that the majority of Muslims are decent people who also abhor the actions of the extremist elements in their midst. Unfortunately they tend to get tarred with the same brush.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[David Isaac]

I agree Marty, but let's not forget that the majority of Muslims are decent people who also abhor the actions of the extremist elements in their midst. Unfortunately they tend to get tarred with the same brush.rgmwa

So they tell us .... The allegedly good silent majority.

 

But it is because the allegedly good silent majority sit back and say NOTHING that the fanatics get their power. Where are all the Muslim men and the Clerics out in public denouncing these acts of murder of innocents? All I see are few Muslim women.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I agree Marty, but let's not forget that the majority of Muslims are decent people who also abhor the actions of the extremist elements in their midst. Unfortunately they tend to get tarred with the same brush.rgmwa

I fully agree, but I also agree with Rupert Murdoch (that was a first) about Islam needing to take responsibility for the lunatic acts committed in its name.

 

All the savagery perpetrated against anyone who would question the character of their prophet makes it more like a personality cult than a religion. After the Paris atrocity one Australian Moslem leader was quoted as saying

 

"Muslims are very emotional about the way their prophet is treated or referred to in the public domain because of the importance he plays in an individual's life.

 

"He's the perfect model of how to be, and some people can take it to heart when he's depicted in an offensive way."

 

That's the problem. He was very far from perfect, and anyone living like him today would break numerous laws- not just in Australia.

 

Time for Islam to take a good look at itself.

 

 

[rgmwa]

All the savagery perpetrated against anyone who would question the character of their prophet makes it more like a personality cult than a religion. After the Paris atrocity one Australian Moslem leader was quoted as saying"Muslims are very emotional about the way their prophet is treated or referred to in the public domain because of the importance he plays in an individual's life.

Well, there are probably a few Catholics who feel the same way about the Pope, but I agree that the Muslims as a group seem to be particularly serious about their religion. Nevertheless, they are not all a bunch of misfits who walk around with AK47's and a grudge against the world.

 

"He's the perfect model of how to be, and some people can take it to heart when he's depicted in an offensive way."That's the problem. He was very far from perfect, and anyone living like him today would break numerous laws- not just in Australia.

 

Time for Islam to take a good look at itself.

I don't think the problem is Islam per se. The problem is the radical clerics and their camp followers who choose to interpret the prophet's writings in a way that suits their murderous political agenda. Jihad has more to do with politics and power than religion.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...I don't think the problem is Islam per se. The problem is the radical clerics and their camp followers who choose to interpret the prophet's writings in a way that suits their murderous political agenda. Jihad has more to do with politics and power than religion.rgmwa

But the problem IS with Islam, or at least with its books of instruction. Therein are the "rules" that good Moslems follow. Many of those rules are decent and sensible, but others allow and even insist that nasty things be done to non-believers.

 

The problem for countries like Australia is not the recent immigrants who value the safety and comfort of our secular democracy, but their children. No male brain is fully formed until age 25 (which explains much of what we did in our youth). Add to that a good dose of unemployment, resentment of a different culture and it's a wonder more marginalised Islamic youth aren't ensnared by the evil bastards who plot jihad. Australia is fortunate to have most of the Islamic community quietly trying to keep their children out of trouble.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some knee-jerk reactionary who wants to ban Islam because of the actions of radicals.

 

The problem is complex and yes at its heart has impressionable and disenfranchised youth rebelling against their own countries. (Perhaps these youth should be taken on a tour of the 3rd world so they appreciate their country a little more...)

 

And I can understand normal muslims getting sick and tired of being tarred with the same brush - after all, there's 1.6 billion of them and the number of extremists would be in the thousands, so maybe 0.01% would actually pick up a weapon.

 

However just as "good catholics" should be outing paedophile priests to the police, it is hard to believe that no moderate muslim anywhere knows nothing of any radical clerics who are advocating violent jihad. They don't operate in a vacuum. Within the communities there must be some knowledge of who the agitators are. My opinion is that their obligation to use this knowledge to prevent future atrocities is greater than their obligation to support a fellow muslim, just as I think a priest who knows another priest is abusing children has an obligation to prevent further harm rather than protecting the good name of the church.

 

As for the d1ckheads from Western countries who get sucked in by these criminals and go overseas to fight with them, why the hell doesn't their country of origin just revoke their citizenship? If you want to go fight with terrorists, go, but don't bother coming back! It's hard to understand why we would keep refugees locked up for 3 years when they have no link with terrorists, but let proven terrorists come into the country.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I doubt that you would take advice on almost any subject from a person of 30,000 years ago (if that were possible). Those people were by today's standards were not what you would call well-educated. They had not had the opportunity to stand on the shoulders of giants like Newton, Copernicus and Darwin.

My point is there are records of people believing in God thousands of years before the Bible was written.

 

My argument was that it is pointless using an excuse about what someone did in the 20th Century.

 

Please don't quote that nonsense from the New Collins Dictionary at me again - it must have been written by a person who believes in one or more of the innumerable deities. No atheist would ever define themselves in that manner. An atheist is one for whom the existence or otherwise of a deity or deities is of no relevance. An atheist when asked what religion they are would choose "N/A" not applicable. They would not chose "Denier of the existence of Gods". It is a non-question to an atheist.

And yet after virtually all the contributors to this thread had settled down to each other's viewpoints you couldn't help yourself;you had to sink the boot into believers again. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the catholic church, but that's your problem to overcome.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I think the problem is simply fear, for quite a number of Muslims. Speaking out against radicals who hold power within a community that you're a member of can be easier said than done.

 

It's even the same within the everyday workplace, or in politics. Whistleblowers are fairly rare for a reason. In those cases it is usually career which is threatened and that alone is enough to shut most people up, but for a Muslim speaking out against radicals it could well end up being their life, and that of their family members, which is threatened.

 

 

[facthunter]

Catholics threaten by ex communication. That is devastating in a small town. They virtually demand a tithe? spl? Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

I think the problem is simply fear, for quite a number of Muslims. Speaking out against radicals who hold power within a community that you're a member of can be easier said than done.

It's even the same within the everyday workplace, or in politics. Whistleblowers are fairly rare for a reason. In those cases it is usually career which is threatened and that alone is enough to shut most people up, but for a Muslim speaking out against radicals it could well end up being their life, and that of their family members, which is threatened.

I fully understand and appreciate that. Which is why countries that are working together to prevent terrorist attacks perhaps should be setting up a "crimestoppers" type service in many countries where you can safely and anonymously dob in a frothing imam. But it's not just down to the rank and file - other imams should, purely out of the interest of protecting their religion, be working towards removing the radical elements. There must be some kind of clerical heirarchy in islam, and the ones at the top of the pile must have some kind of power over those below them. So either the leadership elements don't care about the radical imams, or they haven't got the power to do anything about them, or they don't disagree with them.

 

 

[dutchroll]

So either the leadership elements don't care about the radical imams, or they haven't got the power to do anything about them, or they don't disagree with them.

I suspect it's a combination of all of the above, depending on the individual leader!

 

 

[facthunter]

AS I understand it they don't have a hierarchical structure over all. There are 3 main groups who would not be nice to each other if they didn't have a bigger "satan" to fight. ( the West) . Most of the active ones are young and don't have many productive things to do. I feel we are massively underestimating the threat of this but it needs to be handled sensibly, and there isn't much sign of that.

 

Westernised democratised moslems will be killed too as they are seen as the enemy. ISIS only spares Sunni's. A lot of the "volunteers" are not considered up to it, and will be treated as suspicious, risking death. Nev

 

 

[Guest Deskpilot1]

Got to ask, why is this thread under 'aviation laughter'?

 

 

[rgmwa]

But the problem IS with Islam, or at least with its books of instruction. Therein are the "rules" that good Moslems follow. Many of those rules are decent and sensible, but others allow and even insist that nasty things be done to non-believers.

I think we're saying the same thing in a slightly different way, OK. Clearly the `good' Islamists are decent people who don't follow those rules that allow or insist that nasty things be done to non-believers. They are the vast majority. However there are some `evil bastards' that do because it suits their own agenda, and they use the jihad argument to convince impressionable and disgruntled young people to do their dirty work for them. Hitler was pretty good at it too.

 

The problem for countries like Australia is not the recent immigrants who value the safety and comfort of our secular democracy' date=' but their children. No male brain is fully formed until age 25 (which explains much of what we did in our youth). Add to that a good dose of unemployment, resentment of a different culture and it's a wonder more marginalised Islamic youth aren't ensnared by the evil bastards who plot jihad. Australia is fortunate to have most of the Islamic community quietly trying to keep their children out of trouble.[/quote']

Well said. This is not just an issue of religion.

 

rgmwa

[dutchroll]

If you followed the examples in the Old Testament in the Bible you'd arguably be right up there with Islamic extremists as far as the nasty stuff you could justify. Most Christians thankfully shy away from the Old Testament, preferring to not really go there.

 

Both of the world's primary religious texts - Islamic and Christian - are littered with abhorrent violence in the name of their Gods in certain parts.

 

One of the fundamental historical premises of popular religion, in my opinion, is that you're actually not really good enough to live a peaceful and free life if you don't follow it.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Th real tyranny here is tolerance ... tolerating far too much of the nasty antics. Look where tolerance got the British prior to the out break of WWII, when they tolerated the antics of the Nazi party ....

 

We need to actively root out the nasty bastards and prosecute with the full force of the law.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Got to ask, why is this thread under 'aviation laughter'?

It started with what might generously be described as a joke, about 1592 posts ago.

 

 

[Marty_d]

If you followed the examples in the Old Testament in the Bible you'd arguably be right up there with Islamic extremists as far as the nasty stuff you could justify. Most Christians thankfully shy away from the Old Testament, preferring to not really go there.

Both of the world's primary religious texts - Islamic and Christian - are littered with abhorrent violence in the name of their Gods in certain parts.

 

One of the fundamental historical premises of popular religion, in my opinion, is that you're actually not really good enough to live a peaceful and free life if you don't follow it.

Turning that around, in any enlightened society, if you were to live your life by every rule contained in the bible / koran / torah, you would be a most unpleasant person committing heinous acts.

 

I guess it gives religious scholars a job, trying to bend and interpret their text to fit liberal democratic values.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Stretching that a bit Marty ... LOL

 

All our laws are based on Judaistic Christian principles. These are the laws we live, govern and legislate by. Yet we seem to commit heinous acts in contravention of the laws.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Th real tyranny here is tolerance ... tolerating far too much of the nasty antics.

Agree, but our problem is our culture. There's a local Islam bookshop here which provides updates from middle east conflicts, training details and other propaganda. One of its graduates got himself killed after stabbing two police, and there are probably 300 more graduates of that shop on pur streets, but how do we start closing bookshops?

 

 

[Marty_d]

Stretching that a bit Marty ... LOL

All our laws are based on Judaistic Christian principles. These are the laws we live, govern and legislate by. Yet we seem to commit heinous acts in contravention of the laws.

Not really... I seem to remember something in Leviticus about killing gay people, for example.

 

I would also argue that our laws are NOT based on "Judaistic Christian" principles at all. Almost every society had prohibitions against murder, theft etc well before judaism or christianity was invented. Common sense laws, as well as beneficial traits like altruism, owe nothing to religion and would have developed in functioning societies in the absence of any belief in the supernatural.

 

I will grant you that some of the sillier laws that used to exist, like prohibitions against blasphemy or buggery, were based on religion.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Agree, but our problem is our culture. There's a local Islam bookshop here which provides updates from middle east conflicts, training details and other propaganda. One of its graduates got himself killed after stabbing two police, and there are probably 300 more graduates of that shop on pur streets, but how do we start closing bookshops?

How does a bookshop have graduates? If it's providing instruction in terrorist activities then it's most likely breaking existing laws and the operators should be prosecuted. If it's not, then it's just a bookshop, and if ASIO have any brains they're probably monitoring it anyway.

 

 

[David Isaac]

But since you seem able to quote from the law of the old testament I assume you would also understand that Christ 'ended the law' and 'we' entered an age of grace. So the law of the old testament was ended by Christ (unless of Course you are pure Judaistic or Muslim). In any case the Judaistic Principles existed long before we wrote laws. Mohammed did not preach the same message of grace as did Christ. Interesting that both Christianity and Islam have the same 'roots' in the biblical old testament.

 

I don't disagree with you that laws may have developed in the absence of any belief in the supernatural, but the fact of the matter is they were developed with a general belief in the supernatural. Thank God we have move away from some of the early bigoted laws that had their roots firmly in religious beliefs.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Aside from Winston Churchill who famously touted the 'Tyranny of Tolerance' speech there was another British Prime Minister by the name of Gladstone who said holding a copy of and referring to the Koran – “As long as this book exists there will never be peace in the world.”