facthunter Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Anything is possible actually. I can live with that. It's a lot of the impossible things I have difficulty with. I'm sure we will never know everything.. THAT appears to be impossible. Nev
Teckair Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Yeah forgot to say God lives here as well some people know him as Clive Palmer.
Marty_d Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The point is, unless you're a frothing fundamentalist you accept the science which has estimated that this universe is roughly 13.7 billion years old, and everything in it including us is made of matter and energy released at the point of the big bang. Whether or not the big bang was caused naturally (eg a spin-off from some base of wave-like energy) or set in motion by some universal architect seems to me to be irrelevant. At that point I invoke Occam's razor and say "it seems simpler that the big bang occurred as a natural process, than adding a more complex being into the mix which raises other questions about how this being came into existence." However, let's say for a moment that those who believe in a creator are correct. Why would that being, who seems to have set the whole thing off as a scientific experiment / hobby / engineering feat almost 14 billion years ago, be in the slightest bit interested in the human race? It's like a cluster of microbes on the surface of an 8-ball arguing over the origins of the "big break", with some of the microbes believing that the "supreme player" can see their every thought and action and offers them eternal life. However much like the fact that, after the cue strikes the white ball it's out of the hands of the player and into the control of the laws of physics, why would even those who believe the universe was created think that the creator has any more influence on it?
facthunter Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Like your argument. Once you have a even small bit to do with physics, you realise how much it governs motion in the universe. How could anything interfere with it and not cause utter chaos?. Nev
David Isaac Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The point is, unless you're a frothing fundamentalist you accept the science which has estimated that this universe is roughly 13.7 billion years old, and everything in it including us is made of matter and energy released at the point of the big bang. Trying to be a little objective, what happens if you believe the creator theory, but are not a frothing fundamentalist, and don't accept the big bang theory as fact? Try not to pigeon whole everyone, life is too complicated. ...... why would even those who believe the universe was created think that the creator has any more influence on it? Why do you assume that all those who think the universe was created think that the creator has any more influence on it? We seem to stuff that influence up and we were left alone to do it. Many of the religious folk have a distorted view on this.
facthunter Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The big bang I don't think conflicts with the creation. Once there was only darkness and then there was LIGHT.(and plenty of it). A DAY could be an EON a period of time.. so 6 "days" isn't so much of a problem. (unless you are a complete littoralist). A day for us is one rotation of our planet, which being made of at least some particles (the heavier atomic number ones) from older "busted" stars came along a lot later. Nev
dutchroll Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Trying to be a little objective, what happens if you believe the creator theory, but are not a frothing fundamentalist, and don't accept the big bang theory as fact? Try not to pigeon whole everyone, life is too complicated. Every physicist (and even a whole lot of non-physicists) knows the Big Bang theory isn't perfect. The closer you get to tiny fractions of second after time=zero, the more problems get thrown up. However based on our current state of scientific observations and knowledge, it is the closest thing we have to explaining how the universe sprung into existence. If you want to say "God created the Big Bang", scientists generally wouldn't care, except to say "that's fine, but invoking a God to explain something is not in our job description - we look for real-world explanations". Why do you assume that all those who think the universe was created think that the creator has any more influence on it? We seem to stuff that influence up and we were left alone to do it.Many of the religious folk have a distorted view on this. The assumption comes from the fact that the vast majority of religious people believe that their god has a noticeable influence over things that happen, answers their prayers, or when he doesn't answer them it's for a specific reason which they don't understand but he must know what he's doing anyway, protects them and keeps them safe (except when he doesn't, then again it must be for some reason they don't understand), etc, etc. If you believe that a God created the universe then left it alone and takes a hands-off approach to everything, then you are very much the exception rather than the rule! Most Christians believe God meddles in pretty much everything, every day. He's pretty bloody busy. Heck my parents even suggested to me once that the reason I got into a well paid professional flying job was because they prayed for me (yeah thanks a lot mum & dad - way to compliment your son - couldn't have been anything to do with years of friggin hard work could it?).
bexrbetter Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 If you believe that a God created the universe . Ok so someone believes in a God that created everything, fine. As I said before, and it fits in right here again, I can respect that people are grateful for that but I still don't understand taking your whole life and using it/wasting it on "worshiping" every minute of every day. It is a medically verifiable mental disorder, i.e, Psychosis, and the only one, other than voting for Labour/Liberal and believing you're doing something, that goes unquestioned.
bexrbetter Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Not sure who made who but it was reported on TV that Jesus is living at Murgon here in Qld so Qld really is God's country. Nah, old report, he moved along when his boss, Sir Joh, passed away.
Marty_d Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Trying to be a little objective, what happens if you believe the creator theory, but are not a frothing fundamentalist, and don't accept the big bang theory as fact? Try not to pigeon whole everyone, life is too complicated. Sorry David, you're right, I was being too harsh there. I should have said the universe most likely started with the big bang - no one knows for sure, it's just the most likely theory which fits the evidence. I reserve the label "frothing fundamentalist" for those who insist that the world is a few thousand years old and everything was created exactly as it is today. Not that my opinion of you matters a jot, but judging from your earlier post you're anything but.
Teckair Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Nah, old report, he moved along when his boss, Sir Joh, passed away. Hey you are making stuff up this was well after Sir Joh passed away, how are we supposed to take things seriously?
bexrbetter Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Hey you are making stuff up No, I'm agnostic.
Geoff13 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Hey you are making stuff up this was well after Sir Joh passed away, how are we supposed to take things seriously? What do you mean Sir Joh passed away. When did that happen. We don't get told anything here in Queensland!!
dutchroll Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I reserve the label "frothing fundamentalist" for those who insist that the world is a few thousand years old and everything was created exactly as it is today. A friend of mine is one of those. He in turn has a friend who is even worse. We recently had a 200+ post Facebook "debate" on the age of the Earth and Universe, after which I felt like I was bleeding from the ears. A consequence, I believe, of my neurons undergoing apoptosis (programmed cell death, for the uninitiated) in protest at the sheer gibberish they were being subjected to. We had scientific conspiracies, we had the serial prankster God who made the Earth 6000 years ago but planted all the evidence to suggest otherwise, we had everything. He just wouldn't budge, even when complete contradictions in his own arguments were listed one after the other. It was just an impenetrable wall of absolutely screwed up logic, with him all the while insisting that the evidence really does point to a 6000 year old Earth. What I do when global scientific conspiracies are invoked in an argument:
nomadpete Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Really, regardless of whether the universe is billions of years old, or thousands of years, it doesn't change my life or my morals. I do like the billiard ball analogy though! Just visualise the whole sequence! Like something out of 'Men In Black'
DonRamsay Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 . . . And yet after virtually all the contributors to this thread had settled down to each other's viewpoints you couldn't help yourself;you had to sink the boot into believers again. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the catholic church, but that's your problem to overcome. I'm sorry Turbs but you'll have to explain to my feeble mind how objecting to s stupid definition can be characterised as "sink the boot into believers again". And, I re-iterate that I had a great time while a follower of the Catholic faith. I didn't give it away for any reason other than Reason. I think - therefore I am not a believer. I need to rely on reason not some mythology that somebody told me I must believe. Quite possibly much greater minds than mine like Plato and Aristotle, if they could have, would have urged me to believe in the Greek Gods. And King Bluetooth the Norse Gods. But I am fortunate to live in an age of enlightenment where it is clear that neither the Norse Gods, the Greek Gods, the Egyptian Gods or the God of Abraham have any reliable evidence of their actual existence. They are all just great stories that may or may not have helped people with far less understanding of the natural world than we are blessed with.
DonRamsay Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Sorry for the late post on this but I've been idly distracted by the real world for a while. Just a comment on laws and their origin. My recollection is that most fundamental British Law emanates from Roman Law and the contribution thereto of the fabulous Brothers Gracchi (Tiberius and Gaius cica 135 BC). Then the British Common Law was developed over centuries by god fearing judges and magistrates. The test always was acute logic and often came back to what would a reasonable man do in the circumstances.
Marty_d Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 ...And King Bluetooth the Norse Gods... Sorry, I know he's a real historical character but I just keep picturing him as a magical character who can make his voice come out of someone else's mouth at a (small) distance, but only once he's been paired with them...
Marty_d Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 I think that was William Wallace. Or any number of influential high-class courtesans.
Gnarly Gnu Posted January 28, 2015 Author Posted January 28, 2015 Why Islam is more violent than Christianity: an Atheist's guide.
DonRamsay Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 "A new review of 63 scientific studies stretching back over decades has concluded that religious people are less intelligent than non-believers.A piece of University of Rochester analysis, led by Professor Miron Zuckerman, found “a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity” in 53 out of 63 studies." This possibly explains why you often cannot understand the arguments implicit in GG's posts. Still generalisations cannot logically be applied to individuals, to do so would be prejudice. An interesting article but one that ignores the devout evangelical Christians who kill women and their doctors at abortion clinics and believe it is Gods will. Or the Christians in the USA who, en mass, support the death penalty.
David Isaac Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Them theeerrs red neck Christians Donny ... LOL
Gnarly Gnu Posted January 28, 2015 Author Posted January 28, 2015 "...religious people are less intelligent than non-believers...." This possibly explains why you often cannot understand the arguments implicit in GG's posts I get it, more intelligent = less able to understand. Thanks for your gem of wisdom there Don
Marty_d Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Whatever the flavour they all have their violent nutters. Islam seem to have more than most, admittedly, but none of them are as pure as they'd like to make out.
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