Atheist knowledge

[Gnarly Gnu]

You have excelled yourself in the post above Gnarly for the most illogical post yet from you, but I've given it a funny , because there is no illogical.

I agree with your points Nev, glad you enjoyed my post and found it somehow both illogical and not.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Confirms again what we've seen in the preceding pages - fundamental Atheists* essentially don't do humour. To me it comes across as a narrow minded hectoring, soulless religion for the spiritually dead. Just in case you were wondering. Hey I feel for you stuck in that Marty!

* just to be clear I am only referring to fundamental Atheists (really anti-theists) here.

I did actually find parts of his delivery funny Gnu, that's how I knew he was a comedian.

 

Just out of interest, did you find the video Octave posted amusing, or do fundamental christians not do humour?

 

Don't feel too bad for me Gnu, it might be surprising for you to find out I'm actually a happy family man with a fulfilling life. If I was into a binary view of the world I might classify religion as "a narrow minded hectoring, brainless activity for the intellectually dead", but luckily I'm aware that people are a bit more complex than that.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm happy with an atheist defined as "someone with NO invisible means of support" Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Why only a single god? Do you rule out multiple gods? Not having a go here, just wondering where you are coming from.

I only ruled out multiple gods, because the original dictionary definitions I looked at were in the singular, and that cuts out thousand of multi-god cultures most of which were very shallow in substance, but looking at on-line dictionaries, I see a lot of "god, or gods" tagged, so I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Why I don't believe in god.

 

Although I did not come from a religious family I do remember there being a bible in the house. I can clearly remember the picture on the front, a man with long flowing robes and long blond hair and a blond beard.

 

When I was about 6 or 7 a neighbor offered to take me and my sister to sunday school, something we did not usually do. I suspect my parents agreed to this due to social pressure. I recall having to sing "All things bright an beautiful" and after I asked the sunday school teacher if god had made the horrible things as well, this question went unanswered (I was not trying to be a smart **** it was a genuine and obvious question). I could smell BS. Fortunately I was not forced to continue but at this point I think was an atheist (although I had never heard of that word).

 

During my primary school years my prize possessions were my science encyclopedia, my "How and Why" Books, my "Tell me Why" books and my microscope. I can remember the excitement of the "apollo" years and the moon landings. Later as a teenager I was given a telescope and I joined the Astronomical Society which met monthly at Adelaide Uni. I would often on the weekend stay up most of the night with my telescope and I loved reading about astronomy and cosmology. I did of course want to become an astronomer but to be brutally honest although in high school I studied physics and chemistry my academic performance was less than impressive.

 

So that is my childhood, I have never been directly mistreated by anyone in the church, I am not rebelling against anyone and I am most certainly not "angry at god" as many believers like to suggest.

 

So is there a god?

 

In my opinion probably not but of course it is impossible to say for sure. The fact that we don't know the origin of the universe, saying that god did it is pointless, it is explaining one unknown with another unknown. If you tell me that god created the universe then the logical and rational question is where did god come from? At the moment I am reading 'The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene and "A universe from nothing" by Lawrence Kraus which outline what we do know about the beginning of the universe (and it is more than you might think)

 

What if there is a god?

 

I am often asked "what if you are wrong and there is a god?" The answer to this is of course, "what if you are wrong and it turns out you have been worshipping the wrong god?"

 

The universe has approximately 300 sextillion stars (that is 3 followed by 23 zeros), The furthest object to be observed is a galaxy that is 13.1 billion light years away. As Douglas Adams once said "Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space"

 

So my thoughts on this are why would a god that supposedly created this vast universe be so interested in what we do with our gentials and whether we sleep in on a sunday or not?

 

Why would such a god be so needy in terms of being loved and worshipped. We all want to be loved and respected but the kind of love and respect that comes with a threat of eternal torture is surely worthless.

 

"But how do you know right from wrong"

 

I don't really need a god or a bible to tell me that killing and stealing is wrong. The reasons for me not to steal or kill are:

 

1) empathy, we have evolved to feel anothers pain and loss, granted we are also capable of cruel behaviour but our society would never have flourished if we had absolutely no empathy.

 

2) There is a deal we have with our fellow humans (well most of them) I wont steal your car if you wont steal mine.

 

3) Because all human societies have some form of law. Aboriginals had a system of justice and punishment long before they were exposed to the Bible.

 

When people raise this point I usually ask them if their belief in god is the only thing stopping them from transgressing, perhaps these people do need religion.

 

I could go on an on about this but I fear it my be a tad boring, so to summarize:

 

I strongly suspect there is no god (but sufficient hard evidence could sway me)

 

If there is a god I feel it is unlikely that he/she is the cranky insecure god of the bible.

 

I have a happy and fulfilling life and as I don't believe in an afterlife I know that this life should not be wasted.

 

I have no problem with people believing on all sorts of things , but religion is not science and science is not religion.

 

Very well written Octave, I couldn't disagree with anything you said, other than that I've gone down the path of belief in Good which has been supported by some experiences which I don't want to talk about. As you say the killer in the argument either way is "what was before what was before". ur minds cannot picture an endless past.

 

I've just kept on plugging away at evidence for "belief: and have at least got back 28,000 years past the Jesus Christ scam, which I admit was a shock to me and took some time coming to grips with.

 

 

[facthunter]

It seems difficult to find truly Godless (so called) societies in antiquity Most of the later believers wouldn't believe in the earlier ones. The recent christian references are to a triumvirate God. We (collectively) advance from the earlier ones but don't wish to modify the current ones. They are called "Cults" and all the fighting starts. Nev

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I don't know . . . I go away for a couple of days and come back and find there is this enormously rich series of posts to enjoy. My only real problem is where to begin.

 

The Hillbilly in the white shirt

 

I had quite a few chuckles from this comedian but more than the odd cringe as well. Sort of reminded me of the singers at fundamentalist, evangelist churches. Good singers but not great, entertaining but lacking the charisma of a real star. Worst compliment I could offer the singers is "inoffensive" but the hillbilly did manage to be offensive even if only because of his appalling ignorance and putrid attempts at logical argument.

 

Marty_d, it is unlikely you'll get an answer from the Gnu to your question:

 

" . . . did you find the video Octave posted amusing, or do fundamental christians not do humour?"

 

but, I live in hope.

 

Turbo's question "Why is is that some atheists here are trying to perpetuate the myth that the Bible is "the word of God"? "

 

My answer: This thread began as a slur against non believers thinly veiled as humour. The author of the slur has repeatedly argued his case on the basis that the Bible is "the inspired word of God" - written by men but they are the words of the Abrahamic God of Jews, Christians and Muslims - in that order of chronology.

 

Turbo, your argument and discussion is really a bit tangential to the origin of this thread. Not that it is not worth discussing - quite the opposite. At least from you we get facts and reasoned argument whereas the original protagonist just keeps quoting the modern interpretation of the goat herders guide to the universe.

 

Turbo: "Why do you Don rail against the Christian church?"

 

I don't believe I do. I actually have a soft spot for bits like the Sermon on the Mount - something that struck as quite beautiful the first time I heard it and despite my atheism I still think this is a wonderful piece of writing and a sweet philosophy. Perhaps I am happy to rail against the evangelical creationists and their intolerance of anything that doesn't fit precisely their view of the Universe regardless of the evidence.

 

Turbo: " telling us why they don'y believe in God" (sic).

 

Well, this has been brilliantly answered by Octave and I doubt I could add to his eloquent statement.

 

Until you get back to the Big Bang, we have Science providing answers to most things based on evidence. The Big Bang - did it happen?, what came before the Big Bang? How many universes are there? What is Space made of? and quite a few other questions, Science is yet to answer with any degree of certainty based on evidence. FOr example, my mind thinks that the Singularity exploded in the Big Bang which was followed by an expanding Universe and then a collapsing one into black holes that collapse into each other and eventually comprise a singularity which then explodes into a Universe(s). I have no evidence for the above I just like the symmetry of it and that it could go on like that for an infinite period of time (whatever time is).

 

Point is, yes there is one, I don't need to know, just interested. Similarly, I don't need to know if there is a God. You could insert one or many into my expanding/collapsing universes at any point you like but it is no more necessary to have a God in the picture than it is to know whether my hypothesis is true.

 

One thing is for sure, that there is no logic at all in an omnipotent, omnipresent God created by the writers of the Bible. And if God is not logical what is the point - we are all screwed and depend on the whim of a vengeful, vain, cruel practical joker (kill your son . . . no, I was only kidding).

 

A perfect God wouldn't give a rat's arse what we think of him but would like us to chose wisely and behave well towards our fellow man. No Australian citizen then could ever claim a place in Heaven on the "camel through the eye of a needle" theorem. While we get fat and waste food, billions of people around the world are thirsty and famished. On that basis we should all be hoping there is no God.

 

Simply, there is a hard wired need for humans to have answers to their curiosity established by evolution as a positive force. Some sate this need by imagining a deity or deities others exercise their minds and find the answers with evidence. The former are intellectually comfortable in a settled universe with a wonderful next life to look forward to. The latter are never comfortable living in a vast universe with no order and the more knowledge they achieve the more they realise they don't know or understand.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't know . . . I go away for a couple of days and come back and find there is this enormously rich series of posts to enjoy. My only real problem is where to begin.

The Hillbilly in the white shirt

 

I had quite a few chuckles from this comedian but more than the odd cringe as well. Sort of reminded me of the singers at fundamentalist, evangelist churches. Good singers but not great, entertaining but lacking the charisma of a real star. Worst compliment I could offer the singers is "inoffensive" but the hillbilly did manage to be offensive even if only because of his appalling ignorance and putrid attempts at logical argument.

 

Marty_d, it is unlikely you'll get an answer from the Gnu to your question:

 

" . . . did you find the video Octave posted amusing, or do fundamental christians not do humour?"

 

but, I live in hope.

 

Turbo's question "Why is is that some atheists here are trying to perpetuate the myth that the Bible is "the word of God"? "

 

My answer: This thread began as a slur against non believers thinly veiled as humour. The author of the slur has repeatedly argued his case on the basis that the Bible is "the inspired word of God" - written by men but they are the words of the Abrahamic God of Jews, Christians and Muslims - in that order of chronology.

 

Turbo, your argument and discussion is really a bit tangential to the origin of this thread. Not that it is not worth discussing - quite the opposite. At least from you we get facts and reasoned argument whereas the original protagonist just keeps quoting the modern interpretation of the goat herders guide to the universe.

 

Turbo: "Why do you Don rail against the Christian church?"

 

I don't believe I do. I actually have a soft spot for bits like the Sermon on the Mount - something that struck as quite beautiful the first time I heard it and despite my atheism I still think this is a wonderful piece of writing and a sweet philosophy. Perhaps I am happy to rail against the evangelical creationists and their intolerance of anything that doesn't fit precisely their view of the Universe regardless of the evidence.

 

Turbo: " telling us why they don'y believe in God" (sic).

 

Well, this has been brilliantly answered by Octave and I doubt I could add to his eloquent statement.

 

Until you get back to the Big Bang, we have Science providing answers to most things based on evidence. The Big Bang - did it happen?, what came before the Big Bang? How many universes are there? What is Space made of? and quite a few other questions, Science is yet to answer with any degree of certainty based on evidence. FOr example, my mind thinks that the Singularity exploded in the Big Bang which was followed by an expanding Universe and then a collapsing one into black holes that collapse into each other and eventually comprise a singularity which then explodes into a Universe(s). I have no evidence for the above I just like the symmetry of it and that it could go on like that for an infinite period of time (whatever time is).

 

Point is, yes there is one, I don't need to know, just interested. Similarly, I don't need to know if there is a God. You could insert one or many into my expanding/collapsing universes at any point you like but it is no more necessary to have a God in the picture than it is to know whether my hypothesis is true.

 

One thing is for sure, that there is no logic at all in an omnipotent, omnipresent God created by the writers of the Bible. And if God is not logical what is the point - we are all screwed and depend on the whim of a vengeful, vain, cruel practical joker (kill your son . . . no, I was only kidding).

 

A perfect God wouldn't give a rat's **** what we think of him but would like us to chose wisely and behave well towards our fellow man. No Australian citizen then could ever claim a place in Heaven on the "camel through the eye of a needle" theorem. While we get fat and waste food, billions of people around the world are thirsty and famished. On that basis we should all be hoping there is no God.

 

Simply, there is a hard wired need for humans to have answers to their curiosity established by evolution as a positive force. Some sate this need by imagining a deity or deities others exercise their minds and find the answers with evidence. The former are intellectually comfortable in a settled universe with a wonderful next life to look forward to. The latter are never comfortable living in a vast universe with no order and the more knowledge they achieve the more they realise they don't know or understand.

Octave is not the only eloquent writer - well said Don.

 

 

[nomadpete]

As always, you have offered a welcome, logical perspective. Thank you Don.

 

The only point of difference for me is with your last sentence.

 

I am comfortable with my existence in this amazing and expanding universe. In fact it is a constant inspiration to feel myself as a part (however minute I am in comparison) of this vast "really really big" place. It's an exciting place to live.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

There is a vast, undeciphered bible in the Kimberley in the form of rock art symbology. I have been privileged to see some of it, which is probably 17,000 years old. All this recent crap, only a few thousand years old, cannot compete. If and when we decipher what the Australian ancients were saying we will understand humans better. But whether or not they believed in gods will not mean anything, belief in gods is just a stage that societies pass through. On that basis Australia today is the most advanced society in the world, because we have very few god botherers.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

There is a vast, undeciphered bible in the Kimberley in the form of rock art symbology. I have been privileged to see some of it, which is probably 17,000 years old...

Is that the one which was going to be pushed aside to make way for a gas plant?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

No, a thousand bulldozers couldn't push it aside. It is all over the vast Kimberley, a relic of post ice age people. But every bit of it should be defended against gas plants.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I had to laugh a few minutes ago. I was listening to Radio National while drilling a lower wing skin, it was the "Religion and Ethics" show (don't know why they put those two together, but anyway...)

 

They were talking about humour in religion, and after discussing Christianity, Jews and Islam, they got around to atheists.

 

One bloke (I think he was an Anglican minister, not 100% sure) says "Atheists are always going on about reason. I think we need to start making atheist jokes about reason, I mean, what about the Reformation and the church's involvement in reason?"

 

Seriously? The only thing about atheism this bloke could find to joke about was something that happened in the 1500-1600's??? Even Gnu's joke which started this whole thing, steaming pile though it was, was at least current!

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Reason - the bane of my life. I get criticised by socialists for being an "economic rationalist" but what is the alternative? Economic irrationalism? I get criticised by my friends who are into alternative "holistic medicine" because I require medicine to be proved to actually do something efficacious via a rigorous evaluation program. And I get criticised by my spiritual friends for being atheist. If only I could abandon reason all would be well in the world.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Marty_d, it is unlikely you'll get an answer from the Gnu to your question:" . . . did you find the video Octave posted amusing, or do fundamental christians not do humour?"

Haven't looked yet actually... how long's it? Real nice weather for flying at the moment, this global warmning thing gives sweet summers. Must offer up some more CO2 to gaia.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Reason - the bane of my life. I get criticised by socialists for being an "economic rationalist" but what is the alternative? Economic irrationalism? I get criticised by my friends who are into alternative "holistic medicine" because I require medicine to be proved to actually do something efficacious via a rigorous evaluation program. And I get criticised by my spiritual friends for being atheist. If only I could abandon reason all would be well in the world.

Saw a comedian the other night (a real one), Dara O'Briain - had a great line about alternative medicine:

 

“I'm sorry, 'herbal medicine', "Oh, herbal medicine's been around for thousands of years!" Indeed it has, and then we tested it all, and the stuff that worked became 'medicine'. And the rest of it is just a nice bowl of soup and some potpourri, so knock yourselves out.”

 

 

[Marty_d]

Haven't looked yet actually... how long's it? Real nice weather for flying at the moment, this global warmning thing gives sweet summers. Must offer up some more CO2 to gaia.

26 seconds shorter than the hillbilly, and far more amusing.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Couple more quotes from Dara O'Briain came up when I was searching for the previous one to get his wording right... these are fairly cogent to the discussion:

 

“Science knows it doesn't know everything; otherwise, it'd stop. But just because science doesn't know everything doesn't mean you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to you.”

 

― Dara Ó Briain

 

“If we were truly created by God, then why do we still occasionally bite the insides of our own mouths?”

 

― Dara Ó Briain

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...If only I could abandon reason all would be well in the world.

You have nailed it Don; we make it easy for religion to exploit our human laziness.

 

The lazy way out: abandon yourself to some faith or other. Safety in numbers. Regular gatherings to reinforce the comfort level. A promise of paradise in the next world if you over-ride your natural humanity in this one. Reverence for the leader, who can do no wrong, and whose earthly pleasures know no bounds. No respect for anyone with a different view. Allow yourself to be led like a lamb to the slaughter.

 

Anyone who has studied at deeper levels would know that the hardest work is not physical effort, but the mental stress of challenging old assumptions and resetting your own thinking patterns.

 

Much harder work: living your life to the full and making the most of your (God-given?) intellect.

 

Luckily in most religions you can do this without getting yourself killed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Ah, we're into manufacturing scenarios now, don't you love atheists, they just can't stop looking over the fence and carping about believers.

 

 

[octave]

Ah, we're into manufacturing scenarios now, don't you love atheists, they just can't stop looking over the fence and carping about believers.

remind me how this thread start again!

 

yeah those nasty atheists always knocking on my door and trying to talk to me about atheism, pressuring the government to put atheist chaplains in schools telling people how to live their lives etc and all with a tax free status!

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Haven't looked yet actually... how long's it? . . .

Thanks GG, that explains a lot.

 

1. Pull the pin and roll one in.

 

2. Run away without being bothered by the logic of the reply.

 

3. Come back later when the dust has settled and roll in another one.

 

4. Faith intact, go to 1.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

The lazy way out: abandon yourself to some faith or other. Safety in numbers.

Like Atheism? Plenty of them about in the west.

 

Regular gatherings to reinforce the comfort level.

Yes, atheists have started their own Sunday services, they are very popular.

 

A promise of paradise in the next world if you over-ride your natural humanity in this one.

Yes atheists find comfort by faith in their belief that life has no meaning or purpose and there will be no future judgement of their actions.

 

Reverence for the leader, who can do no wrong, and whose earthly pleasures know no bounds.

That would be Moslems. Christians worship Jesus Christ who sought no earthly pleasures.

 

No respect for anyone with a different view.

True, fundamental atheists are very intolerant.

 

Allow yourself to be led like a lamb to the slaughter.

That was the Son of God! And on our behalf, so we don't need to. You are quoting Isaiah 53v7 - a prophecy written 750 years before the event took place, confirming the authenticity of scripture.

 

Anyone who has studied at deeper levels would know that the hardest work is not physical effort, but the mental stress of challenging old assumptions and resetting your own thinking patterns.

Yep, you should start examining the lack of science beneath your core belief in Darwinian evolution hypothesis. It is the holiest doctrine to all atheists so don't expect them to be accommodating of your free thought.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Like Atheism? Plenty of them about in the west.Yes, atheists have started their own Sunday services, they are very popular.

 

Yes atheists find comfort by faith in their belief that life has no meaning or purpose and there will be no future judgement of their actions.

 

That would be Moslems. Christians worship Jesus Christ who sought no earthly pleasures.

 

True, fundamental atheists are very intolerant.

 

That was the Son of God! And on our behalf, so we don't need to. You are quoting Isaiah 53v7 - a prophecy written 750 years before the event took place, confirming the authenticity of scripture.

 

Yep, you should start examining the lack of science beneath your core belief in Darwinian evolution hypothesis. It is the holiest doctrine to all atheists so don't expect them to be accommodating of your free thought.

Quite a few assumptions you have made there GG. Much more discussion required.

 

The good news: It seems we are in agreement on a couple of items.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Ah, we're into manufacturing scenarios now, don't you love atheists, they just can't stop looking over the fence and carping about believers.

The crazy thing here is you have a bunch of logical arguers arguing with people who have abandoned reason in favour of belief.

 

Being able to suspend credulity is a good thing otherwise the Goon show (inter alia) would have not been so brilliantly surreal. Drama would have no purpose.

 

A temporary suspension of credulity is one thing but basing your whole life on belief in a particular, unverifiable mythology - living in a world of make believe - would have seen you locked up if the nut houses weren't run by co-believers.

 

Most ordinary, sensible people you meet think Scientologists are all certifiable because of what they believe to be real. Their mythology is gobsmackingly obviously less than improbable. But, if you look closely at their belief system it is no more incredulous than that of pretty well any religious mythology - take your pick (Egyptian, Zarathustran, Greek, Roman, Norse . . . At least they don't have to resort to the ". . . works in mysterious ways" excuse to explain the truly ridiculous parts of their mythology like the Abrahamic religions do.

 

Speaking of Zarathustra, I though you might like to see an image thereof.

 

[ATTACH]47541._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

Remind you of anyone?

 

As the scribes wrote in Ecclesiastes 1-4-11 "אין כל חדש תחת השמש" a rough translation:

 

“ . . . there is no new thing under the sun.” What they left off was so why not copy it?