Atheist knowledge

[dutchroll]

I arrived at it by myself after a strict Christian upbringing too. What first set me on that road was the incessant Sunday sermons which said the same thing over and over again, particularly continuously telling me how bad I was and that I couldn't possibly determine right from wrong without reference to the Bible. I thought "wow Reverend, you actually truly believe by virtue of the fact I'm here, that I'm a completely clueless twit who needs your divinely inspired guidance on literally everything, don't you? Ok, well that's easily fixed."

 

So in my mid to late teens I released myself from the shackles and became free to muse about what we've discovered in the mysteries of life, the universe and everything, without needing to roll, pound and squish those musings into a shape which conformed to a book written by humans mostly in the First Century AD.

 

 

[facthunter]

I was really into it in my late high school and Teacher's College years (Methodist) The people were nice enough but there was a tendency to be a little cliquey . There was an "IN" group which didn't impress me. This is probably typical.. My family even has a stained glass window in the church, not that I knew till years later. That would have cost a packet ( which we didn't have).

 

I have had many very good friends who are very devout. One particularly admired my concern for others and to him that proved I was a man of God. In a way I found that a rather large assumption but it emerges often.. The inference being "no GOD,NO GOODNESS.".

 

I was agnostic for quite a long time, but that is a form of fence sitting and I felt I was being a bit of a wimp wanting to have a bet both ways so to speak.

 

When you have had a belief for a while, there is a gap left (as there would be) but I'm very comfortable with my present situation. I have more ability to comprehend matters and not preconceive. I have very little trust in what is said or written, but there is nothing new in that.

 

I have no need to contact any atheists to converse with them. There is no network no reinforcement. No top up needed. There is no image to project or live up to. Some who have mentioned in passing they are not believers have informed me not knowing of my position, and it's by way of explaining why they might have put forward some view, and they are generally very gentle about it, and perhaps a little concerned it might offend me.. I think there are a lot more serious doubters and atheists around that don't say much. Nev

 

 

[octave]

So fascinating hearing about other people's journey to non-belief.

 

For me it was not a journey, I don't think I ever believed. My parents and grandparents were not church goers other than weddings and funerals. I do remember attending Sunday school on 2 occasions, I suspect at the insistence of a well-meaning neighbour. I think the realization came after singing all things bright and beautiful, I asked the Sunday school teacher if god also made the things that were neither bright nor beautiful, this, of course, did not go down well.

 

In 1979 I joined the RAAF, I put Cof E (church of England) on my personal details form (I definitely felt some social pressure). In 1982 I decided to be honest and I changed the religion on my personal details to "None".

 

Instead of 10 commandments I have just one - "don't be a dick", this has served me well so far. I do not fear death although I do fear pain and suffering. I enjoy my life and I do not need religion.

 

Gnu and Turbo, if you wish to attempt to convert me you would need to answer all of my questions (which you can't).

 

 

[facthunter]

Some clergy lose it (faith) during periods of intense barbarity. They blame their God for not stopping it. I never think like that. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Gnu and Turbo, if you wish to attempt to convert me you would need to answer all of my questions (which you can't).

Let me be very clear Octave, at no time have I wanted to convert you to a belief in God, and I have no intent to do that in the future.

 

Hopefully that hasn't given you another opportunity to ask for a reference or proof.

 

As far as answering all your questions, when I realised that this was a favourite game of yours I felt no further obligation to treat any of your questions seriously, or answer anything except off the cuff, without bothering to spend an hour or more researching because I thought you were genuinely interested.

 

So you shouldn't expect anything other than off the cuff responses from me these days.

 

As far as the "(which you can't)" comment, I'm not even going to bother trying, at any time on any subject.

 

So you can needle all you like, give clever likes all you like but they are just going to float out there in the ether; I'm not interested.

 

 

[Marty_d]

There's been a lot of wisdom and logic over the last couple of pages. Thanks for sharing guys.

 

I'm from a fairly strict background too, no TV/radio, even dating & marriage to people outside the church was frowned on. Pre-marital sex was definitely a no-no. The discovery of which was definitely the point of the chisel that removed me from the group. Not having a go at my family, I love them to bits and think they brought me up well. Just saddens me that they suffer in this belief that I'm going to hell because I don't believe.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

"Ahh, religious wars, 2 groups of people fighting over who has the best imaginary friend ...."

 

Napoleon Bonaparte.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Lighten up, no need to get personal. We're only on about a Humorous light hearted debate. It's not the end of the world.If you can't keep a smile through all this, and the thought provoking fun is gone, then it's time to stop reading here - and go to another thread.

 

There's been a lot of wisdom and logic over the last couple of pages. Thanks for sharing guys.

Actually it's gotten a little heavy over the last few pages, just a bit of ribbing to me and regardless of what's said, I'd still have a beer and a snag with any of ya's in the real world.

 

Except maybe Flyerme if he gets "dressed up ....".

 

 

[Marty_d]

I'd still have a beer and a snag with any of ya's in the real world.

Next time I'm in China...!

 

Except maybe Flyerme if he gets "dressed up ....".

What, you reckon he might be the Conchita Wurst of Australia?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Next time I'm in China...!

In that case a beer and a hot dog.

 

... and by hot dog I mean hot dog .....

 

 

[dutchroll]

Actually it's gotten a little heavy over the last few pages.....

That's religious discussions for you! ;)

 

Attempts to have humorous discussions about religion usually don't end well. Unless you were Dave Allen (comedian). He had the uncanny ability to always do it!

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I too grew up in a strong church environment. Religious schools, even spent a few days at a monestary and loved it. I began to question what had been fed to me from infancy when a good friend who was one of the most decent people I have ever known was a non-attendee at mass on Sundays. According to the hierarchy he was all set to burn in hell for all eternity. I just couldn't see that as likely and that therefore, something was wrong with the church.

 

Did a lot of research of a lot of religions and graduated to churchless agnostic.

 

There is a logical argument in favour of agnosticism that goes along the lines of that nobody can know for certain that there is not one or several supreme beings or even the three in one favoured by Christians. Just the same as religious people can not be certain that there is - they make up the credibility gap by inserting belief.

 

Finally got to the stage of stepping back and looking at "faith" as a device that is successful from an evolutionary viewpoint. People of faith flock together and have a social cohesion that helps to fend off threats. It has psychological advantages in making the insufferable, sufferable. No wonder just about every civilisation invents some form of imaginary friend for comfort and bind the group together.

 

Happy to now be a grown up and stand and fall on my own ideas of how to live a good life. While the goat herders may have contributed part of my personal philosophy most of it I reject as deplorable in the 21st century CE.

 

From reading this thread, I now have a new simplified guide, a restated golden rule on how to live and I treasure it:

 

"Don't be a dick". Genius can concentrate a holy book into a phrase. Thanks.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Genius can concentrate a holy book into a phrase.

If only we could apply this to parliament.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I began to question what had been fed to me from infancy when a good friend who was one of the most decent people I have ever known was a non-attendee at mass on Sundays. According to the hierarchy he was all set to burn in hell for all eternity. I just couldn't see that as likely and that therefore, something was wrong with the church.

I have never been told by any Minister, or even the Archbishop of Melbourne who confirmed me that not attending church would result in me burning in hell for all eternity, so this seems a bit fanciful to me.

 

While the goat herders may have contributed part of my personal philosophy most of it I reject as deplorable in the 21st century CE.From reading this thread, I now have a new simplified guide, a restated golden rule on how to live and I treasure it:

 

"Don't be a dick".

The ridiculous reference to goat herders, which you've repeated over and over again, even though a goat herder would be lucky to be able to engrave, let alone quote history would be a good example to apply to your golden rule.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I don't think it's so much for not attending church. More for "unbelievers" in general. There's a long list of written and spoken words which condemn unbelievers to a horrible experience in hell after their death. Which is kind of weird when they don't believe hell exists anyway, so it's unclear to me why anyone would use this as leverage to force others to "discover God".

 

 

[turboplanner]

Unfortunately many people over time have come up with statements to suit their needs - usually to line their pockets or coerce others to their particular product. If you go back to the time of John the Baptist, unbelievers were simply welcomed into the church if they wished that.

 

 

[rgmwa]

My theory is that both believers and non-believers of all persuasions are all headed for the same place when they die. My belief is that belief is irrelevant to the outcome, because I don't think we will have any choice in the matter. In the meantime I'll just do my best to be a decent person. You never know, I might be pleasantly surprised one day, in which case I'll be happy to discard the old theory and move on to a better one.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I have never been told by any Minister, or even the Archbishop of Melbourne who confirmed me that not attending church would result in me burning in hell for all eternity, so this seems a bit fanciful to me.

As I said, it seemed a bit fanciful to me as well and contributed heavily to my leaving Catholicism to Catholics. But do not doubt for one moment that the Catholic Pope's interpretation of "keep holy the Sabbath" was attend catholic mass or commit a mortal sin. This is the sole reason why a greater percentage of Catholics go to church on Sunday's that C of E. Interesting interpretation by the Vatican in that the Catholic mass was not invented until centuries after the 10 commandments were carved in stone, smashed and re-written on goatskin.

 

The ridiculous reference to goat herders, which you've repeated over and over again, even though a goat herder would be lucky to be able to engrave, let alone quote history would be a good example to apply to your golden rule.

OK, you win, maybe the scribes just bludged on the goat herders like the TV evangelists do now. Is it not the bible story that they were a tribe of escaped slaves wandering around the Sinai peninsular looking for another tribe to decimate, steal from and enslave?

 

 

[DonRamsay]

On the lighter side, in the Australian Army back in the late 1960s you had to advise your religion as one of catholic, C of E or OPD (other Protestant denomination). This classification scheme was the result of the widely held belief that there are no atheists in a foxhole. If you made the mistake of choosing any one of the categories on offer you got hauled off to church parade. If you were brave enough to cross them all out and write "none" you got assigned to the work detail of the damned.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Still can't help yourself regurgitate the goatskin comedy, can you. So much for your golden rule.

 

If the tribe you are referring to is Moses, then you would be aware that he was trained over many years by Egyptian Priests and lived with the Pharao's family, and his story is certainly included in the Bible.

 

However, you should also do some research on the Megalithic Yard and see what the scientists and engineers were doing before this to get a better picture of world history.

 

 

[Marty_d]

If the tribe you are referring to is Moses, then you would be aware that he was trained over many years by Egyptian Priests

I think he failed Navigation.

 

Mind you the Egyptian priests were so busy embalming Pharaoh's and praying frantically for the Nile to flood every year, perhaps they didn't have time for Navigation.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Still can't help yourself regurgitate the goatskin comedy, can you. So much for your golden rule.

In your view perhaps. I don't have a census of the tribe of Moses but I think I'd be safe in guessing that the goat herders heavily outnumbered the pharisees, civil engineers and mathematicians. Moses description of his tribe as he came down from his psychedelic experience with a burning bush on the top of the mountain confirms even his suspicion that they were a group of shallow-thinking simple, superstitious people who had melted down the gold and cast it as a calf and were now adoring it as the supreme being. Try telling anyone that these people were not gullible?

 

If the tribe you are referring to is Moses, then you would be aware that he was trained over many years by Egyptian Priests and lived with the Pharao's family, and his story is certainly included in the Bible.

I saw his brother Aaron's alleged burial place in the Sinai a few years back. No idea if it really was or was just folklore like so many other claimed relics. Similarly, it would be interesting to read an account by the Egyptians of the facts around the Bible story of the exodus. Currently we probably get only a very one-sided, colourful view. Was Moses what he said he was, an adopted Prince of Egypt? Was the "baby in the bullrushes" yarn a fable, parable or historical fact? Is there anyway of ever reliably knowing which? I mean, you would think that the news of losing an army due to the magical parting of the Red Sea would have rated a mention in hieroglyphs somewhere. But then you wouldn't want to ruin a great movie script with the facts.

 

However, you should also do some research on the Megalithic Yard and see what the scientists and engineers were doing before this to get a better picture of world history.

To my mind, the purpose of studying history is to understand the present and to not inadvertently repeat bad history. Other than that it is just plain interesting and I love it. I'd rather read well researched history than fiction any day. Well researched or not, it often doesn't make the story any less entertaining, e.g. Jason and the Argonauts.

 

However, I doubt that there is anything we could learn today on the subject of Civil Engineering from people who were around pre 1 CE. But that probably wasn't your point. I'm guessing you were lecturing me on the idea that as well as ignorant (by today's standards), desert wandering, superstitious goat herders, there were some excellent civil engineers and mathematicians. True?

 

Well, the lesson is wasted on me because I have stood at the foot of the pyramids at Giza with my mouth open, just like Napoleon and Julius Caesar did before me and thought, "farcus, how did they do that?" I've been to Luxor (Thebes) and the temples there and walked around inside the enormous tomb of my forebear, Ramses IV, and been utterly gobsmacked at the magnificence of their achievements and all done without so much as the assistance of a Sinclair ZX1000.

 

I know that there were very clever people around 10,000 years ago despite the Bible claiming the world is only 6,000 years old. Plenty of those otherwise clever people succumbed to the superstitions that were prevalent in their time. The thing about superstitions that makes them so hard to counter is that you can't prove them wrong and the people who believe them don't need to have them proved right. They have faith! The people who adopt a superstition get quite rankled with people who point out how illogical it is to believe such twaddle. One man in the 7th Century CE writes that he is the last prophet and in the 21st Century CE, 1.25 billion people believe he was and run their based on his writings.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

My theory is that both believers and non-believers of all persuasions are all headed for the same place when they die. My belief is that belief is irrelevant to the outcome,

I have said early in this thread and maintain that the only problem with the nothingness that we are all heading for, is that we don't have the mental capacity to accept "nothing".

 

 

[Marty_d]

I have said early in this thread and maintain that the only problem with the nothingness that we are all heading for, is that we don't have the mental capacity to accept "nothing".

Wasn't it Mark Twain who said “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

 

 

 

I agree with him. I have no memory of existence before I was born (as I had no existence before conception!) and only fear the pain of death and the regret of things unfinished, rather than the lack of existence thereafter.

 

 

 

 

I mean, you would think that the news of losing an army due to the magical parting of the Red Sea would have rated a mention in hieroglyphs somewhere.

 

 

It was probably a "dog ate my homework" thing. "Ah sh*t... how do I tell the boss we got our asses whipped and lost 90% of our men... "

 

 

[rgmwa]

I have said early in this thread and maintain that the only problem with the nothingness that we are all heading for, is that we don't have the mental capacity to accept "nothing".

I'd argue that we don't have the mental capacity to deal with the notion of an eternal `something' either.

 

rgmwa