Atheist knowledge

[dutchroll]

Church schools offer a much broader foundation than that, teaching culture and values in life than an atheist culture doesn't do.

Oh gosh.....where to start on that one?

 

 

[DonRamsay]

To quote myself: "It boils my blood that governments fund Christian, Islamic and Jewish schools that work to divide the community and reinforce ancient superstitions. What next a State funded School for Scientologists?"

 

This was the stone that was thrown Dutch, from the atheist corner.

Dear oh dear Turbo, for an intelligent, well educated person you do occasionally miss the point completely.

 

Surely anyone can see this is a personal opinion - what I think. It is not an appeal to the world at large to shut-down all non-secular education. For it to be that, it would have to have been something like:

 

"All non-secular schools should immediately be shut and all children given only a secular, ethical education based on science and facts and leaving out all unsubstantiated theories of the supernatural."

 

Personally, I don't have a problem if the State Governments analyse the cost of educating a child, and provide an equal cost to a Religious or independent school PROVIDED the standard of education of all schools brings the child to an equal level of preparedness and qualification for a start at University, or whatever career path the child has chosen. Financially, that means that the taxpayer pays the same amount to get a student to University age, whether by State School or Public School.

Clearly, this is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I have no objection to you having an opinion but, once published, I reserve the right to dispute its logic and desirability. The logical flaw is that you are asking people who equate religion with silly superstitions being asked to have children indoctrinated from the age of 5 years up in these silly superstitions. These children have not reached what the Catholic Church properly refers to as the age of reason - for them that is a very arbitrary 7 years.

 

How can that ever be fair and reasonable?

 

Next, you are asking to perpetuate the social divisions that come from sectarianism. Sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, the Sub-Continent and the Middle East have had an enormous cost in terms of human misery.

 

In the once great State High School, people of many ethnicities, religions and cultures mixed together from an early age without demeaning aspersions like "Heathens" being cast loosely about. Students judged their peers on whether they were good blokes, good at sport, good at academics or whatever. Religion didn't get a chance to divide.

 

By the way, "State" and "Public" have the same meaning in this country - even the "Great Public Schools" are understood to be private, financially advantaged and religious sect based.

 

so there shouldn't be any financial argument (other than from the hating zealots).

Thinking something is unreasonable and unfair should not, in a logical argument be characterised as argument from "hating zealots". That one is beneath you Turbo.

 

A lot of this thread has been wasted by fatuous quotations from the Bible, wherever people could find something silly/lost in translation/clearly wrong, or where certain religions had behaved badly.

The quotations may be of fatuous material but they are literal quotes and offered in response to somebody whose entire argument revolves around their view that every word in the Bible is literally true and the inspired word of their god. It is perfectly fair and logically consistent to quote back at them the words they claim are irrefutably true.

 

That you don't accept the Bible to be literally true and are willing to make the judgement as to what bits are true and what bits are parable or misinterpreted is fine by me but not the basis for any sort of logical argument. You can't have it both ways.

 

Church schools offer a much broader foundation than that, teaching culture and values in life than an atheist culture doesn't do.

Well, after 12 years of attendance at religious schools, I know I am in a better position to judge that anyone who has not had that "privilege". My experience of that system and the experience of the other 900 students at my High School were very similar I'm sure.

 

The teaching culture was extremely narrow not broad. There was never any reference to ethics or statute or common law - only canon law. At least I was never asked to accept "Creationism" as an alternative to Evolution. Maths is Maths and Geography, History, Economics, etc., were taught without any form of religious overtones or undertones. Things got a bit sticky around the treatment of Bruno and Galileo but we got past that. I doubt that an atheist would have instructed any differently than did the members of the religious order that thrashed it all into us. Perhaps the thrashing bit might have been excluded as they probably would not have subscribed to the theory that a severs thrashing is good for the soul. I know that if one of my children experienced some of the treatment I endured at the hands of sadists (not sexual as far as I could tell) there would have been religious order blood on the floor of the school. But, being a good atheist, I have forgiven them and moved on.

 

In my experience, religious education was extremely narrow with just one christian sect getting covered. Hardly what you would call a "broad foundation". Theoretically at least, citizens of the USA are provided an education that is free from religion despite the best efforts of creationist idiots. To all intents and purposes, it is education in an atheist environment.

 

And what experience of an "atheist culture" do you have to base that opinion on?

 

It's a free choice in Australia - you can take the State School path or the Public School path . . .

No, there is no choice as to whether my taxes go to fund Islamic Madrassas, Christian or Jewish Schools and if the Scientologists (a "Religion" according to the High Court of Australia) applied for funding - they would be entitled due to the narrow reading by the Hight Court of s116.

 

. . . and the difference doesn't result in mass killings.

More to do with good gun laws and the history of the secularism of the 20th Century. Sadly, in Australia in the 21st Century there has been a step backwards with increased attendance at unfair, economically and socially divisive rich private schools, Christian colleges and Islamic schools. All working towards inequality of opportunity and pushing our society into separate camps that are encouraged to despise each other.

 

 

[Litespeed]

I won't quote Turboplanner but are you serious?

 

We all have a right to public education and if you wish to go private then fine but it should be entirely privately paid. The argument they provide a education so should get the same money is complete crap. They accumulate assets, often have huge capital on investment and even get interest free loans for capital works off the government they never actually have to pay back.

 

State schools cannot get freebee capital to build great sports halls or even barometric chambers (kings school) or Olympic pools heated and indoors or libraries that universities could only dream of .

 

Any money that flows to them is lost to the public for private benefit, state schools are owned by the people of the state.State schools have to account how they spend the money, private schools are exempt from even basic transparency.

 

Religious schools of a particular faith have proven time and again to have

 

No moral compass at all and feel they are above the law. Just look at all the systemic abuse that is been exposed and their attitude to it. They can't even be sued for damages.

 

Governments of state and federal have consistently abused the public system and favored often illegally the religious schools. The idea of church and state been separate like the constitution demands is a fraud. Instead of getting counsellors in schools we can only get a religious pastor/chaplain- even in a state school. Children are forced to have religious education in state schools- scpriture and are actually banned from having ethics classes instead at the same time. So they go do nothing by edict of the government.

 

About ten years ago the catholic schools got funding to increase the wages of teachers from the government on the basis they provided religious education and thus should be paid more that state school teachers. Another example of federal money going to pay for religion by stealth. Now the wages gap from state to private schools is 10-25k a year different. Who losses out? - the public system and those that support it.

 

How do I know?

 

I am a teacher by trade.

 

There is no such thing as equity in funding between the systems, nor equity in intended outcomes either educationally, ethically nor legally.

 

Today the dimwits in Canberra floated up the flagpole the idea that state school places should be means tested. This would mean the better off would flock to the private system and even further degrade the public system. They immediately denied it was a serious idea but then said it is up to the states to do it.

 

IF a parent wishes to impose a belief system based on imaginary beings in the education of their child that should be up to them to pay for it not us.

 

Where else in life do we insist the right of the delusional to be paid for by the public?

 

 

[Marty_d]

A PRIEST AND A RABBI.

A priest and a rabbi were sitting next to each other on an airplane.

 

After a while, the priest turned to the rabbi and asked,

 

“Is it still a requirement of your faith that you not eat pork?”

 

The rabbi responded, “Yes, that is still one of our laws.”

 

The priest then asked, “Have you ever eaten pork?”

 

To which the rabbi replied,

 

“Yes, on one occasion I did succumb to temptation and tasted a ham sandwich.”

 

The priest nodded in understanding and went on with his reading.

 

A while later, the rabbi spoke up and asked the priest,

 

“Father, is it still a requirement of your church that you remain celibate?”

 

The priest replied, “Yes, that is still very much a part of our faith”

 

The rabbi then asked him,

 

“Father, have you ever fallen to the temptations of the flesh?”

 

The priest replied,

 

“Yes, rabbi, on one occasion I was weak and broke my Faith.”

 

The rabbi nodded understandingly and remained silent, and sat thinking, for about five minutes.

 

Finally, the rabbi said,

 

“Beats the shite out of a ham sandwich, doesn't it?”

Can I just point out that the rabbi's conclusion is not a given. I believe in weighing up the benefits of ham sandwich vs. getting the leg over, one should consider the hunger for each at the time and the subsequent quality of the experience...

 

 

[Marty_d]

I won't quote Turboplanner but are you serious?

We all have a right to public education and if you wish to go private then fine but it should be entirely privately paid. The argument they provide a education so should get the same money is complete crap. They accumulate assets, often have huge capital on investment and even get interest free loans for capital works off the government they never actually have to pay back.

 

State schools cannot get freebee capital to build great sports halls or even barometric chambers (kings school) or Olympic pools heated and indoors or libraries that universities could only dream of .

 

Any money that flows to them is lost to the public for private benefit, state schools are owned by the people of the state.State schools have to account how they spend the money, private schools are exempt from even basic transparency.

 

Religious schools of a particular faith have proven time and again to have

 

No moral compass at all and feel they are above the law. Just look at all the systemic abuse that is been exposed and their attitude to it. They can't even be sued for damages.

 

Governments of state and federal have consistently abused the public system and favored often illegally the religious schools. The idea of church and state been separate like the constitution demands is a fraud. Instead of getting counsellors in schools we can only get a religious pastor/chaplain- even in a state school. Children are forced to have religious education in state schools- scpriture and are actually banned from having ethics classes instead at the same time. So they go do nothing by edict of the government.

 

About ten years ago the catholic schools got funding to increase the wages of teachers from the government on the basis they provided religious education and thus should be paid more that state school teachers. Another example of federal money going to pay for religion by stealth. Now the wages gap from state to private schools is 10-25k a year different. Who losses out? - the public system and those that support it.

 

How do I know?

 

I am a teacher by trade.

 

There is no such thing as equity in funding between the systems, nor equity in intended outcomes either educationally, ethically nor legally.

 

Today the dimwits in Canberra floated up the flagpole the idea that state school places should be means tested. This would mean the better off would flock to the private system and even further degrade the public system. They immediately denied it was a serious idea but then said it is up to the states to do it.

 

IF a parent wishes to impose a belief system based on imaginary beings in the education of their child that should be up to them to pay for it not us.

 

Where else in life do we insist the right of the delusional to be paid for by the public?

I think the wages, conditions and support for teachers from child care centres to year 12 should be at least doubled. If we as a society had any brains we'd realise that people with the care of our kids have one of the most important jobs around. Where my sons go to primary school, class size is around 25 - 27 kids. They do a great job. Imagine what they could do if they had classes half the size, sufficient funding to properly target education styles to each child's needs, and truly inspirational teachers. All our kids are the future population of this country. Good early learning, especially pre school, can help make huge differences to their futures.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I am talking here on a scale of millions of students, not anyone's particular tiny little fragment of the whole.

Wut?

 

I am in a minority of having factual experience of both, you're welcome.

 

One thing I have notice with any religious people I have had contact with throughout my life is the oscillations of mood, completely normal for weeks then suddenly full on into that full spiritual hallelujah mode where all sensibilities get left behind - guess where I reckon you are at the moment ... take note of the replies you are getting for your last few posts from the heathens and decide for yourself how you're coming across.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Church schools offer a much broader foundation than that, teaching culture and values in life than an atheist culture doesn't do.

Heard an interesting interview with broadcaster and former Liberal politician Eoin Cameron the other day. Fantastic stories from his life, some of them had me laughing til I cried. However there was also a serious side. He went to a church boarding school. He said of his headmaster "Yes, he tried to rape me. He didn't fully succeed, but it was enough to make me bleed." This experience screwed him up and affected him for most of his life.

 

I'm sure there are predators in the state school system too, but they don't have the cover of the church school's dislike of negative publicity - and the sanctity of the confessional, of course. Also seems to be a hell of a lot more of them in the church schools. Maybe it's a cultural thing.

 

If you have a spare half hour it's a great interview to listen to. You can get to it here - http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2015/06/10/4252207.htm

 

 

[dutchroll]

I've never heard of endemic abuse in State schools. They're quite an open and public environment so I think it would be generally difficult to get away with even if the staff wanted to. Really wish I could say the same of religious schools and the clergy.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...I would like to see a permanent advisory committee with the skills to be able to advise the government just what of our money should be spent where.

... We used to have one. It was called the Public Service, where experienced, knowledgeable people gave independent advice to ministers of the crown, whose duty it was to spend taxpayers money wisely and fairly.

 

Now we have government by lobbyist. Ministers too often spend money where it can maximise votes and repay political donations.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I've never heard of endemic abuse in State schools.

 

I'm sure there are predators in the state school system too,

I knew of 4 Teachers, 2 females meeting up with male students and 2 male teachers meeting up with female students (one ended up married to one 14 years younger than him).

 

3 of them in the 1970's, one in the 1980's.

 

From what I saw I wouldn't use those terms at all but seems that's what they do now. I can assure you that all parties were very happy and the students, all over 16 years old, were quietly boastful, yes including the girls. Different times I guess. Mornington Peninsula rural if that makes a difference.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I knew of 4 Teachers, 2 females meeting up with male students and 2 male teachers meeting up with female students (one ended up married to one 14 years younger than him).

Yeah I personally know of one case at my State school where a female Year 12 student hooked up with a youngish divorced teacher (not one of her own teachers though). Naive and unwise? Quite probably, but totally consensual and legal.

 

I do also personally know of an abuse case from a religious school. This wasn't a relationship. This was a male youth worker systematically sexually abusing the young boys, one of whom was a friend of mine and has suffered a lot for it. I found out about it many years later.

 

I hold those institutions in particularly low regard (couldn't get much lower, actually) because most of the time they've been aware or suspicious that something odd was going on but chose to look the other way. You know - see no evil hear no evil.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

My wife once worked in a RC school which was run like an Old Boys club. She reported a male teacher who regularly had young boys in a darkened room and even caught him with a kid on his lap. To our knowledge no action was taken, but she never got work in that system again.

 

 

[dutchroll]

My wife once worked in a RC school which was run like an Old Boys club. She reported a male teacher who regularly had young boys in a darkened room and even caught him with a kid on his lap. To our knowledge no action was taken, but she never got work in that system again.

Yeah well they've apparently never been too keen on outsiders spoiling their "fun".

 

 

[pmccarthy]

In the last year of high school we boys resented the young teachers taking our girls out, we thought it was unfair competition. But I still think there was nothing wrong with it, there was only thre or four years age difference.

 

 

[turboplanner]

... We used to have one. It was called the Public Service, where experienced, knowledgeable people gave independent advice to ministers of the crown, whose duty it was to spend taxpayers money wisely and fairly.

Now we have government by lobbyist. Ministers too often spend money where it can maximise votes and repay political donations.

The public service still does that, but in some areas are prone to agendas, and in others take money from the good old boys so they can make money, and in others get mixed up in union matters - just needs some oversight.

 

Lobbyists, which now comprise lawyers and ex politicians, and go in hard on a big scale with no oversight whatsoever, just working for financial interests are definietly swaying decisions, and should be banned. The weak wristed "control" placed on them is the requirement for them to be "registered" and listed on the Parliamentary website. Take a look at the lists - nearly as many lobbyists as there are parliamentarians.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wut?

I am in a minority of having factual experience of both, you're welcome.

 

One thing I have notice with any religious people I have had contact with throughout my life is the oscillations of mood, completely normal for weeks then suddenly full on into that full spiritual hallelujah mode where all sensibilities get left behind - guess where I reckon you are at the moment ... take note of the replies you are getting for your last few posts from the heathens and decide for yourself how you're coming across.

Just the same anti-religious stream coming from the same people, and mostly aimed at the side issue of Christians rather than the opposite of atheists.

 

 

[facthunter]

There have been a few teachers involved with students ( and some getting married) in the state system but I would suggest it's very rare compared with the incidence of molesting in the area's under investigation currently where there has been a cover up to protect the "church" etc. I started in Secondary schools in Western Sydney with standard class sizes of 48. ( which sometimes grew to 56)

 

Of course there would be many young girls happy to be the teacher's pet. If you took advantage of this, you would be a complete fool and your fellow teachers would lead the condemnation of your folly. Even IF the consent age is covered there is a hierarchical relationship of trust and of maintaining no favours, and not abusing the power you have .

 

A teacher (or any other staff aid) would not be protected by their peers in the state system, if there was any suggestion of impropriety. The higher ups might try, but the general staff wouldn't stand idly by. Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

I would like to see a permanent advisory committee with the skills to be able to advise the government just what of our money should be spent where.

The government quite often commissions reports from the top experts in the field and then proceeds to either totally ignore the findings if they don't align with their ideology, or cherry-picks bits and pieces which then gives sub-optimal results or even worse results than before.

 

Henry tax reform, Gonski education reform, Garnaut climate change papers, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile Tony and Joe trash wind farms and "suggest" that they cause negative health effects when an existing 25 reports say they don't. Face it, governments don't listen to advice, unless it comes from sources closely aligned with their own ideological stance.

 

 

[facthunter]

Like if they have an AGENDA. Nothing stands in the way." He who pays the Piper CALLS the TUNE". Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

There has been a facebook post going around for the last 12 months or so with a photo of an attractive blonde female school teacher who had allegedly had sex with a 16 year old male school boy. She ended up in jail, bloody hell, it is every 16 years olds dream to tap a nice looking school teacher.

 

 

[facthunter]

Male school boy. Are there other kinds of school boy?. I heard about that, and agree with your sentiments but tell it to the Judge Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

Just the same anti-religious stream coming from the same people, and mostly aimed at the side issue of Christians rather than the opposite of atheists.

Actually Turbs, that isn't an anti-religious stream. It is a criticism of church hierarchy and of the lack of integrity that has become ingrained in those church systems. The actual religion is 'ho hum' to me. BUT the bad behaviour of some LEADERS and practicioners is simply unacceptable. Please accept that many of us athiests are not particularly anti-religious. In fact we are more religiously tolerant than most who practice 'religiosity'.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

There has been a facebook post going around for the last 12 months or so with a photo of an attractive blonde female school teacher who had allegedly had sex with a 16 year old male school boy. She ended up in jail, bloody hell, it is every 16 years olds dream to tap a nice looking school teacher.

That sort of behaviour should be rooted out.

 

 

[Marty_d]

That sort of behaviour should be rooted out.

I bet he was after a while.

 

There has been a facebook post going around for the last 12 months or so with a photo of an attractive blonde female school teacher who had allegedly had sex with a 16 year old male school boy. She ended up in jail, bloody hell, it is every 16 years olds dream to tap a nice looking school teacher.

When I was 16 and in TAFE, there was a very attractive teacher in her 30's who wore the shortest skirts I'd ever seen. I don't reckon there was a bloke in the class that heard one word she said. She had an affair with one of her students, unfortunately it wasn't me.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Male school boy. Are there other kinds of school boy?. I heard about that, and agree with your sentiments but tell it to the Judge Nev

Yeah, an transgender school boy.