The Trump Presidency - an analysis

[Old Koreelah]

Most predictions underestimate the speed of societal and technological change.

In that movie it takes 500 years to run down our society. I suspect Murdoch, Trump and others are well on the way after a decade.

[Marty_d]

13 hours ago, nomadpete said:

After 20th January, will the extremist rust belt gun toting voters find a new Messiah, and Donny just end up looking like a wealthier Alan Bond?

If some reports are right, he won't be "wealthier".

 

Apparently he has $400 million in loans falling due in the next couple of years which he's personally on the hook for.  Which may account for his desperate attempts to hold on to the legally untouchable position of President for another four years.

[old man emu]

Wisconsin has agreed to Trump's request for a recount.

 

 

 

As long as he foots the $11M bill for doing it. 

[nomadpete]

Will they accept a cheque from him?

 

I'm pretty sure Donny would say "Trust me I'm good for it"

Edited November 18, 2020 by nomadpete

[Marty_d]

Surely the GOP is going to rein in the constant spending, these failed lawsuits alone must be costing a fortune in overpriced lawyers and costs.

[nomadpete]

Aaaah but Marty, it's only money.

 

Specifically, it's only money gathered from donations. The believers are coughing up quite generously, it seems.

[onetrack]

The judges in every single state have stated the Trump crowd don't have a case of any kind (about voter fraud) - because they cannot produce a shred of solid evidence that will stand up in court.

 

The Trump BS must surely run out of steam, soon - or will he and his rusted on supporters, start becoming viciously abusive of the judges and court system, still looking for a scapegoat?

 

I did originally have some respect for Giuliani - now, I'm tending to think he's a bigger dill than Trump himself. Surely his brain must start functioning soon, and he'll wake up to the fact that he's looking like a bigger loser than his boss.

 

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/its-over-legal-experts-write-off-donald-trumps-election-lawsuit-as-critical-case-reaches-new-stage/news-story/106cc09233d764dc6e99e4c93e896ae2

Edited November 18, 2020 by onetrack

[old man emu]

This Trump crap is getting boring. How about we start a thread bagging Rotax engines? We could mount a campaign in favour of Jabiru engines. Now there's a campaign that would be interesting!

[nomadpete]

OME you are suffering from a common malaise.

It's called "Trumpfatigue"

 

Last night I spent (maybe wasted) some time listening to a certain trumpet type individual who I had mistakenly believed to be retired from the manure spreading industry. It seems the shockjock retired from shamelessly sensationally enraging his radio audience, but he now excells at trump style tirades on TV. 

It sounded to me like endless trump so I had to shut it off.

[kgwilson]

Guilianis first court appearance in more than 25 years did not go well. He is only there because most of Trumps other lawyers have wisely withdrawn. As expected he made wild claims and produced no evidence, failed to understand normal points of law and even the word opacity. His case had 2 voters named as co-plaintiffs saying they'd been denied the right to vote and it sought to invalidate the votes of 6.8 million people. Of course there was no answer when the Judge said "How can this possibly be justified". It's a complete sham and a sideshow that is eating up cash provided by Trumps crazed supporters and achieving absolutely nothing. There will probably be a comedy TV series about next year.

[old man emu]

7 hours ago, nomadpete said:

a certain trumpet type individual

The type that should slowly Bledisloe to death?

[Marty_d]

Maybe the Trump supporters paying for all these lawsuits is a good thing.  They won't be able to afford that ninth AR-15.

[onetrack]

If ever I had proof that Giuliani has lost it, and is following the Trump script to a tee, then this interview seals it. The bloke must be desperate to keep the Trump money flowing.

 

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/us-election-trump-lawyers-claim-they-can-overturn-election-results/news-story/5b01c1030e6aec4b1b804a33075f4784

 

 

[ClintonB]

I watched the newest Borat movie recently, yes it was done in bad taste style, but is entertaining in the way it portrayed trump supporters.

sacha Baren Cohens other show this is America is also quite an eye opener on American culture. It’s scary to see what some people fiercely believe to be true. 
I’m glad our politicians don’t buy their place in the same way the yanks do. 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Tread Drift (apols been away for a coupel fo days): @Yenn, re the terrorising purchases, can yyou pls provide links (PM Me is fine) asI am genuinely intersted.. I used various search terms and nothing pre-1947 came up...

 

End of Thread drift...

 

Back to Trumposaurus...

 

Giuliana presented to a Philadelphia court a writ that did not claim fraud. He opened his argument with some conspiracy theory about Fraud and bot the PA. electoral lawyer and judge questioned if he alleged fraud. He apparently sheepishly replied "No.". The judge allowed Giuliana to continue his argument,  and he did - the fraud conspiracy. Apparently the case wasn't thrown out and the judge is to make a decision, but the electoral lawyey at least doesn't give it much chance. And the writ was something quite minor apparently. Admittedly, CNN are probably as biased as Fox, but this is an interesting clip:

 

I agree that Trump has a legal right to challenge the election - and while they should not have to prove a prima facie case to alledge fraud, by the time they present the case to court, they should. And it appears the Trump team thinks so, too as the writs they lodge often are minor and bare no resemblance to the charges made outside court.  The win in PA  lack of access to electoral monitoring was thrown out be a federal court in PA. So Trump's biggest, but minor win, is now lost.. And of course, as expected, the Georgia recound came up Trumps.. for Biden.

 

Apparently, one of his aides has confided to the press (CNN, from memory), that Trump is doing this just to get back at the Democrats for claiming the 2016 ballot was invalid due to Russian interference, which is a totally different thing than to assert wilfull criminal misconduct of fraud by  the electoral officals in office.

 

One has to question the logic of the GOP and wider Republican party. They fear crossing the president more for losing his supporter base than they actually support him or are worried about getting a dressing down by him. Yet, inthe longer term, they will probably inflict more damage on themsleves, as the vocal Trump supporters are probably unlikely to vote in an election that doesn't feature Trump, and more and more moderate Republican voters seem to be thinking (according to polls) that Trump's behaviour is not particularly becomming of a president.. and they may well be turned off the current slew of Republicans as a result... I am amazed at houw much bluster can captivate people.

 

On a funny note, even Fox News are distancing themselves more and more from the Whitehouse. They stopped bradcasting at least one press conference by the Press Secretary (who draws $180K pulic salary) as they could not "in good coutenance" continue pedalling that carp. And there was a second where they didn't even boradcast it, the reporter stating it was all lies (I think she ussed the term., "not a shred of truth", but would have to find it again). My son later came in quite bemused: "Dad, what is it with Australia. I have just watched sky news there for the first time, and they are still spouting cr@p about how Trump is the winner and the election is laced with fraud."  And went on how Sky News in the UK is very different. My response was, in the UK, the Press Complaints Commission (or whatever the name of it is now) has real teeth to compel broadcasters to pull their act together or lose their licence... Australia, sadly, does not.

 

On the plus side of this malaise, I think it hows the strength of the US democratic system: Int he face of extraordinary pressure by its attempted tin-pot dictator... the hirings and firings, rigging of the supreme court bench, and contesting some close elections, their democratic and public instiutions have been remarkably robust and resolute - and seemlingly honouring the people's vote (in accordance with their law) and not capitulating - even where the Trump campaign has tried to coerce Republican officials that could have done it. Their systems and institutions are not perfect, but I think this can be chlaked up as a win for them.

[nomadpete]

Well, Jerry, our sky newts service is owned by......

And it also features large amounts of mouthfrothing tirades by a certain old shockjock (a Jones) who generally sounds like Trump on steroids. I have watched it a couple of times in an effort to understand why some folk are so full of conspiracies and biased half-truths. I still have trouble comprehending why there are so many followers of this sort of stuff. But they are out there and,  having spoken to a few, I'm starting to think that eugenics might be a good thing.

Edited November 20, 2020 by nomadpete
added sarcasm

[willedoo]

Sky News - the 24 hour comedy channel.

[Marty_d]

Careful blokes, you'll piss off Sky's regular watchers.  That's fifteen people you don't want to rile up...

[Bruce Tuncks]

What was the "jewish autonomous oblast" willedoo? I have never heard of it before.  Did they map off a bit of siberia and tell the jews that there could be a jewish state there?

Please tell, and why did I not hear of this before?

[Jerry_Atrick]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

 

Never heard of it before, either... But there's a lot I have never heard of before - a real lot...

[Bruce Tuncks]

I like to think there was a conspiracy, but alas they didn't have the brains to run a conspiracy. Here's something else though... who was being protected by locking up rudolph hess ? It cost squillions to deny him ever having his day in court. All I know is that the person was not a killer. I reckon it was the king.

[old man emu]

Going by the flag of the JAO they have a Gay old time in the snow. Black border for definition only. The original border was lost in a white out.

[Yenn]

Jerry I can't supply you with references. My knowledge comes from reading newspapers and books about the Israely occupation for the last 60 or so years. I wouldn't have any idea of where to find them on the internet. I cannot remember the names of individual villages terrorised into abandonment. Look up the bombing of the King David Hotel for a start. It was a horrendous act. Look up the promises made by Britain to the Palestinians and also the jews to see more of how they certainly did nothing to stop any bloodshed.

Concerning the USA election, there has been no word about how elections are declared, but it is my belief that by Dec 8th the electoral college will have to vote. Until that time it seems that everyone goes along with what the media declares the result to be.

I reckon OME would know where to find what the legal requirements are, not that I am throwing out the challenge to him of course.

[old man emu]

I take up your gauntlet Sir Yenn.

 

Formally declaring a presidential winner is a months-long process that won’t be completed until January. That process essentially involves Americans voting for electors, the electors voting for the president, and then Congress declaring the winner.  There's Election Day, where those electors are elected; there's the date in December where the electors meet and then vote for president; and then there's the date in January where the Congress certifies that election.

 

Once the 50 states, plus the District of Columbia, tally the in-person, mail-in and provisional ballots, each state governor draws up a list of electors. Copies of this list, known as the Certificate of Ascertainment, are submitted to the U.S. Archivist, the head of the National Archives. The electors then meet in their state capitals to formally cast their votes for president and vice president. This must occur on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December. The final step in the process occurs on Jan. 6, 2021, when Congress meets to count the electoral votes and officially certify the winner. The process is ordinarily ceremonial, but there can be objections. 

 

After the 2020 election, the biggest question is, ‘Do voters feel like when they cast their ballot on Election Day, it is a deciding factor in who represents them?’ In every other election, it is, because it is that popular vote that's the determiner.  It can diminish people's faith in the process, and it could diminish the engagement. If they think their popular vote, their vote on Election Day, doesn't actually make that decision,  it's just going to cause a challenge for participation and people’s faith in the system.

 

The paradigm of Democracy in the USA has been attacked. It is up to the people to restore the pre-2020 paradigm, or to institute a new one that makes voting for a President a "first-past-the-post" process.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Thanks, @Yenn.. I'll look it up..Understand re not everything on the 'net... Even when I have found things on the 'net, often I can't find them again... I'll look up King David, but I found this piece which seems balanced and it doesn't even mention the land purchase, so I am wondering how pivotal it was or wasn't: https://www.vox.com/2015/5/14/18093732/israel-palestine-misconceptions. As it is, my interest is waning because, as I have mentioned,  if I ever end up in the ME, it isn't through choice (no offence to Ahmed Zayed, but when I was in Abu Dhabi and Kuwait, many things I saw were repugnant to my values, whcih are no better than anyone elses - I know this is not the case for the whole ME). Thanks for the discussion, though - it has certainly opened my eyes a bit.

 

Re the elections - yes, it is an unfortunate phrase they use that "the networks have called the election" or variations thereof. They obviously don't "call" the electon in terms of certification... As for the states who had declared, this "reputable" newspaper has an article: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13100431/election-map-states-joe-biden-donald-trump/

 

Georgia has since been delcared. Not sure about Penn.; I guess there are cout cases coming. I think it is scheduled to be delcared on the 27th.

 

I was listening to a US late show and they stated it is now illegal for most states Electoral colleges to vote against the popular vote in their state, however, not all, and crucially a few of the wwing states. I think Penn. is one of them and apparently, they Repulican official there has been pressured to arrange for the Penn college to vote for the Repubs. To his credit, he has been steadfast in his refusal to bend. I think it would be a brave Elector to go against their state's wishes - especially in 2020.

 

 

Unless the Electors or Congress do go against the popular vote - not likely but theoretically possible, the numbers are there and it is a fait accompli - or as the yanks call it - a done deal.

 

After 4 years of a rapacious an authoritarian presidency, and genuine attempts to undermine the deocratic process both during normal office and in the lame duck period, I think ultimately, it speaks volumes of the robustness of American democracy, despite its faults. A president who won what looks like a protest vote* to send a clear message to the "establishment" that people had enough. A tumultuous term followed by the rejection of shock politics... And despite the continuing attack on democracy where he was able to (worryingly) rally a substantial portion of the population behind him to keep going, it was probably those same voters that put him in the Whitehouse that are taking him out of the Whitehhouse. This, to me, is at the heart of democracy.. you are given a chance and at the end of it, you don't live up to it, the people can say, "you're fired!". And he will be in accordance with the laws of the land. Yes, there will be a legacy that the US has to work hard to repair, but that is what politics is about.. It will eventually sort itself out one way or another; that his the hallmark of democracy.

 

*While a lot of people voted for Trump support him and always will, he was able to succeed in 2016 despite losing the federal popular vote seemingly largely because of the protest vote, which mattered in the swing states. That 2016 protest vote should be a stark call to successive Democrat and Republican presidents to wise up - the electorate will hold you to account and they should staert listening to all sides of the divide; not just play to their own echo chambers. A lot of people on boths sides of the divide have a lot of respect for Trump - they may not agree with what he said he was going to do, but he more often than not did what he said he was going to do, and when he couldn't he was able to lay the balme on Congress. That allowed him to take the political high ground regardless of the criminality and corruption involved. Biden has an uphill battle and the worry is, if they allow political stalemates and sluggishness of the past without being able to forge a path to a more open and bipartisan way of administration, Trump may smell an "I told you so" moment to the voters and become a credible candidate in 4 years.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Jerry_Atrick